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Veerle

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Hello fellow tortoise keepers!

Our name is Veerle and Maxim and we live in Belgium. We have 4 Astrochelys radiata at the moment all small.

We have been reading a lot on this forum since there is little as none information about this species in Europe and mostly Dutch fora. We changed some things like temperature and humidity and saw some good emprovements.

We also see that "American" rads grow faster than here. I have a lot to tell and probably also ask about this wonderful species but for now i will keep it to one specific question.

We have them per two in closed terrariums cause of the Belgium weather. I know you guys don't like that, in one terrarium with hatchlings we don't have any problems for now, they eat, drink, sun, etc.

In the other terra however our "big one" is not sunning anymore, he does eat 5 minutes before the lamp goes off but that's it. Sit's in his corner for way too long. We have been to the vet clinic and they had a little bit of worms in the feces so they got a medicine for that. The vet thought it may be because it's too hot in their enclosure but im not so sure about that. Now i wonder what is going on cause he (or she) was a very active animal before this.

Is it because of the temperature or more because of the other tortoise? He did have the biggest poo (19grams) i've seen couple of days ago, i didn't see his poo for almost two weeks, so gave him mango and 2 daily baths so that worked i guess.

Information about the set up:

*Substrate: is sand mixed with top soil.
*Lamp: is Reptech 80 watt warmth combined with UVB + 2 other regular lamps just for light
Temperature: is 30°C (86°F) directly under the lamp, coldest corner is about 22°C (71°F)
Humidity: is 70% at day and around 90% at night

They mostly eat weeds, grasses, optunia, vegetables (not tomato or crap), succulents, sometimes fruits and they also have sepia. I have also ordered mazuri and will be feeding that soon.

The tortoise with a problem is almost 14 cm (5.5 inch) and 590grams (1.3 pounds) not sure if the measurements are right since i used a website to switch from cm and grams.

Note: the other tortoise inside the same enclosure is very calm and doesn't seem to annoy him or something like that.
 

JoesMum

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Hello and welcome

Can you post some photos of your enclosures and lighting? Pictures are a lot easier to assess than words.

We don't recommend tortoises being kept in pairs as they are both solitary and territorial.

If you have one that is failing to thrive, or that is apparently not right in any way then I recommend that you separate them immediately.

If it is ill then it won't make the other sick. If there's a dispute going on that you're not aware of then the source of the problem is removed.
 

8james8

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It sounds like a dominant vs submissive relationship has surfaced.

Is your set up large enough to isolate the submissive animal for a trial period to test this? If you move the animal and the other animal begins the normal behavior you were used to, you've confirmed it's a bullying scenario.

When I see pairs and behavior like you described, that is the first place I would think to look.
 

Veerle

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Thanks for the answers. The set up is 150x50x50cm or 59x20x20 inch, we can separate them but i observed them (after reading about it on this forum) and the other one is not climbing on him or annoying him when he eats and mostly sleeps at another place. So i thought i could be something else. On the other hand, i trust the experience you guys have and im glad i even found this forum. I'll be posting pictures soon.
 

8james8

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The behavior will happen at different moments. It usually leads to things like adjusted eating behaviors, lessening activity (movement, sunning, etc).

With the size you mentioned of the tortoise and the enclosure size I would lean toward bullying.

No way I can say for certain but that is my first thought. Though I know others have a bit more insight into the worms and how that may change their behavior. It's also a possibility.
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Veerle, and welcome to the Forum!

You don't always see overt bullying. They communicate with subtle cues that we can't see. I agree with what's been said, that you should separate them and hope for the best.
 

JoesMum

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The fact that one is not right is reason enough to separate them.

If it is sickness, the last thing you need is for it to pass the infection on to the other tort. Separating them may not help the one that's bad if it is sick, but it could save the other.
 

Veerle

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The vet didn't really worry about him being sick. He checked his poo under the microscope. They are the best since it is an academic vet clinic. But we decided to seperate them to see if that is the problem.
 

8james8

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That's the best move to verify if it is health related or just interactive dynamics. This is usually the most difficult determination to make.

Please keep us updated on the behaviors. Hopefully it's just a quick dynamic adjustment.

If it is a dominant animal situation, numbers do help spread the behavior out. I would also recommend watching how the addition of a possibly dominant animal changes the others. Hopefully it's just subtle behaviors and not physically aggressive. Just wanted to raise the possibility that the possibly dominant animal might need it's own quarters. Which is as easy as swapping the current situation :)
 

Veerle

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Any update?

Sorry it took a while, have been sick for more than a week and also lost a friend last week. A bit more positive news, we got her checked with endoscopy (was planned a few weeks back) and it's a female (it's hard to get females in Europe). The vet who did it, learned and uses the same technique from dr. Divers apparently (what a small world).

She's more active now than before, but haven't had the time to separate them since the busy week. We are planning it for tomorrow. 18274967_10211326125622449_1820828245068708208_n.jpg 17862397_10211115340512953_5198762691950529176_n.jpg 18254454_10211327330092560_1007924869_n.jpg 18279891_10211327330052559_55741928_n.jpg 18336542_10211327330212563_1594078233_n.jpg 18302395_10211327330252564_449951108_n.jpg 18318507_10211327329892555_903782147_o.jpg 18274967_10211326125622449_1820828245068708208_n.jpg 17862397_10211115340512953_5198762691950529176_n.jpg 18254454_10211327330092560_1007924869_n.jpg 18279891_10211327330052559_55741928_n.jpg 18336542_10211327330212563_1594078233_n.jpg 18302395_10211327330252564_449951108_n.jpg 18318507_10211327329892555_903782147_o.jpg
 

8james8

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That's good news. Hopefully they did an exam as well and they didn't notice anything obvious to be an issue.

That's great you are happy about her being female. The US it seems (at least lately) males have been less common. I am hoping to have 2 to 3 males once i have all 8 of mine. (2 already scoped to be female). I'll know in a year :)


Also sorry for your loss and I really hope you are feeling better. Good news hopefully helped perk you up
 

Tom

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In addition to agreeing that they should be separated ASAP, I also think your temperatures are too low.

It should be closer to 36-37 directly under the lamp, and I would not let the rest of the enclosure drop below 26 for a tropical species with higher humidity.
 

Veerle

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Thank you James and Tom for commenting. Im doing better now so thanks for your sympathy and condolences.

We separated them and i just ordered a new lamp. Hope we see some changes soon. She's does eat and drink, just not sunbathing. Other one must be passive aggressive because i see no biting or "terrorizing".

Edit: Forgot to say that the veterinarian thinks she's in good health (didn't find anything unusual).
 

Veerle

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An update:

Turns out not the other radiata was a problem but it was just the lamp. She became active again at day when the new lamp arrived, so we put the other one back and they eat, sun, drink .. the usual stuff :D
 

8james8

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Great news :) so you upgraded the lamp and they are getting along. Always nice when it's a small and easy fix
 
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