Introductions and questions

[alaf]

Hi everyone,

Me and my brother got two tortoises for our birthdays around five years ago. Both of us could not house them with us so they stayed at our parents (in a vivarium with little room to walk). Now I have my own flat so I decided to take both of them and try to give them a better life. I have read quite a lot of posts and care sheets on the forum but I still have a few questions. I'll try to give you as much info as possible for you to hopefully give me some pointers.

Tortoises:
- 2 female (I was told) (unseparated since they were babies)
- around 5 years old
- russians (I believe - see photo for confirmation)
- first one (Rex): 308 grams, 12x10cm - loves walking around and burrowing - really good eater
- second one (R2D2): 141 grams, 8x7cm - loves basking and relaxing - slow eater

Enclosure:
- see photo (I've changed things a tiny bit since I took this - the little terra cotta bowl is now a second water bowl instead of a food bowl - the slate under the basking lamp is removed because the temp was too high with it there and I bought an actual thermometer instead of the one you can see in the picture)
- 200x80cm
- 1 UV lamp
- 1 basking lamp
- 2 water bowls
- 2 eating spots
- 3 hides (one is used by R2D2, the others seem useless)
- 1 calcium block
- lamps: 13h on, 11h off on a timer
- substrate: 3cm of garden soil
- temperature: 21°C on the coldest side (to the opposite of the basking lamp) and 38°C under the basking lamp (it's an open tortoise table so the lowest temp possible is the flat temperature that drops to 19-20°C at night)

Nutrition:
- lamb's lettuce (mostly)
- dandelion (when I can find them)
- cucumber
- zoomed grassland pellets
- all of this in a salad
- occasionally something can be added if the tortoise table website says it's okay and I find it

Routine:
- lights on at 6am
- 20 minutes bath at 7am (while I clean their enclosure, bowls, mist the enclosure, ...)
Rex always poops in the water but R2D2 does it when she eats
- food after the bath
- then whatever they want to do (most of the time they bask for a good hour, then walk around then go in a hide or try to get under the substrate, then I'm gone for work and don't really know what they do. I think one of them goes for lunch on the leftovers around 2pm.)
- lights off at 7pm

Here are all of my questions:
1. should I separate them?
I have read that they shouldn't be kept together but very little reasons are given in those posts so I don't know. They don't seem to not like each other, they just keep to themselves mostly. I have implement two eating spots and two drinking bowls in case they don't want to share.
2. if I have to separate them, ideally I would get the same size enclosure for the second but I can not (not enough room in my flat)
I have read that at the minimum they would need an enclosure 8 x length of their shell (so minimum 96cm) by 4 x length of their shell (minimum 48cm). So dividing the already existing enclosure in two should be enough (100 by 80cm), should I do that until I find a better solution for them? I do have a decent balcony that I might be able to use in the future for them to be housed outside but for now they will be kept inside at least until the end of winter.
3. I don't think the substrate is deep enough, I was thinking of adding the same quantity of soil as I already have and top that up with a layer of orchid bark, this should give them a depth of 8-10cm, is that okay? it should also give them a better humidity because I don't think the soil does even if I mist it four times a day.

If you want to give feedback on other things based on the given info, please do.
And if you need more info, just ask and I will do my best to answer.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi everyone,

Me and my brother got two tortoises for our birthdays around five years ago. Both of us could not house them with us so they stayed at our parents (in a vivarium with little room to walk). Now I have my own flat so I decided to take both of them and try to give them a better life. I have read quite a lot of posts and care sheets on the forum but I still have a few questions. I'll try to give you as much info as possible for you to hopefully give me some pointers.

Tortoises:
- 2 female (I was told) (unseparated since they were babies)
- around 5 years old
- russians (I believe - see photo for confirmation)
- first one (Rex): 308 grams, 12x10cm - loves walking around and burrowing - really good eater
- second one (R2D2): 141 grams, 8x7cm - loves basking and relaxing - slow eater

Enclosure:
- see photo (I've changed things a tiny bit since I took this - the little terra cotta bowl is now a second water bowl instead of a food bowl - the slate under the basking lamp is removed because the temp was too high with it there and I bought an actual thermometer instead of the one you can see in the picture)
- 200x80cm
- 1 UV lamp
- 1 basking lamp
- 2 water bowls
- 2 eating spots
- 3 hides (one is used by R2D2, the others seem useless)
- 1 calcium block
- lamps: 13h on, 11h off on a timer
- substrate: 3cm of garden soil
- temperature: 21°C on the coldest side (to the opposite of the basking lamp) and 38°C under the basking lamp (it's an open tortoise table so the lowest temp possible is the flat temperature that drops to 19-20°C at night)

Nutrition:
- lamb's lettuce (mostly)
- dandelion (when I can find them)
- cucumber
- zoomed grassland pellets
- all of this in a salad
- occasionally something can be added if the tortoise table website says it's okay and I find it

Routine:
- lights on at 6am
- 20 minutes bath at 7am (while I clean their enclosure, bowls, mist the enclosure, ...)
Rex always poops in the water but R2D2 does it when she eats
- food after the bath
- then whatever they want to do (most of the time they bask for a good hour, then walk around then go in a hide or try to get under the substrate, then I'm gone for work and don't really know what they do. I think one of them goes for lunch on the leftovers around 2pm.)
- lights off at 7pm

Here are all of my questions:
1. should I separate them?
I have read that they shouldn't be kept together but very little reasons are given in those posts so I don't know. They don't seem to not like each other, they just keep to themselves mostly. I have implement two eating spots and two drinking bowls in case they don't want to share.
2. if I have to separate them, ideally I would get the same size enclosure for the second but I can not (not enough room in my flat)
I have read that at the minimum they would need an enclosure 8 x length of their shell (so minimum 96cm) by 4 x length of their shell (minimum 48cm). So dividing the already existing enclosure in two should be enough (100 by 80cm), should I do that until I find a better solution for them? I do have a decent balcony that I might be able to use in the future for them to be housed outside but for now they will be kept inside at least until the end of winter.
3. I don't think the substrate is deep enough, I was thinking of adding the same quantity of soil as I already have and top that up with a layer of orchid bark, this should give them a depth of 8-10cm, is that okay? it should also give them a better humidity because I don't think the soil does even if I mist it four times a day.

If you want to give feedback on other things based on the given info, please do.
And if you need more info, just ask and I will do my best to answer.

Hello and welcome to the forum!!

There’s quite a lot to unpack here so I can only apologise in advance for the influx of information you’re about to receive, it’s probably going to feel very overwhelming at first, but please stick with us! I’m happy sticking around for as long as it takes to get you on the right track, there may be intervals inbetween depending how busy I am, but I’ll always pop back on, plus there’s many other members to help!

First up, if you post a photo of their plastron(under their shell&tail area) we might be able to confirm sex for you. Judging on sizing it’s possible you have a male and a female. However under 5 it can sometimes be difficult to know for sure until they’re more 7-10(typical age of sexual maturity).

You appear to be using a compact uv lamp, they aren’t an ideal choice unfortunately, they concentrate uv into a very small area, this can sometimes cause uv hot spots that can be damaging to their eyesight. On the flip side they’re notorious for not giving out enough uv which is vital for their health.

Any kind of topsoils shouldn’t be used, unless composted yourself, there’s no way of knowing what kind of plants have gone into it, could be something toxic, with reptisoils they’re often mixed with sand which is also not good for them.

Temperature on the cooler side during the day should be more in the 23 range at lowest, to make up ambient temperature I highly encourage a CHE(ceramic heat emitter) more on that in the link I’ll provide. Your basking temp is fine as well as your night temps.

Diet could ideally do with some more variety. The tortoise table is definitely a great website to use!

To answer your most pressing question, yes, they absolutely do need separating, tortoise of any species should NEVER be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about.

Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio. Simply put, pair dynamics do not work for tortoises, especially Russians, it’s not natural for them and they don’t have the reasoning to understand they don’t need to compete for resources and have a constant rival, it’s very stressful for them and can actually stunt one, which hopefully isn’t the case for your smaller one but it’s a possibility.

For enclosure sizing, the whole ‘8 times the length of their shell’ rule is very old fashioned and not correct, they ideally each need a minimum of an 8x4 foot enclosure, I know that may seem a lot! But I promise it’s absolutely necessary! Tortoises need to roam, they’d roam miles in the wild, it aids in their digestion, muscle strength and overall well being.

Increasing substrate depth would be a good idea if they like to burrow, but it’ll need to be appropriate stuff.

I think you’ll find this thread I made below a very useful read, I cover correct equipment(lighting&heating, including the correct uv), levels, substrates, appropriately maintaining humidity, sizing and there’s lots of visual examples for everything!

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

I think this one will also be really good to familiarise yourself with, it will help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I also highly encourage you to double check new purchases on the forum!

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

I hope these help! Give them a read and let me know what you think, always happy to answer any further questions!

Oh one last thing, with the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity.
The uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12hrs, your ceramics will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hopefully that will make more sense once you read the threads. I would adjust the timing for now until uv is amended with the correct type