Is this pyramiding?

[Sdapsam]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for checking this post.

This is my 9 month old eastern Hermann’s tortoise, Ernest. He’s an absolute delight! But I’m worried he could be starting to pyramid as his shell looks bumpy to my eye.



When my wife and I were researching tortoises before getting one, we came across this forum and the concept of pyramiding and committed to ensuring we took good care of it and to do everything possible to avoid pyramiding.

I then built the enclosure which is 120cm x 70cm (3ft by 2ft). I’m aware this is a little small but I have every intention to upgrade the size when he hits 1 year old (we’ll have a bigger place to put him by then!)

The enclosure is open topped, but I drape a big clear PVC sheet over the top of it to try and keep the humidity in (sort of like a poly tunnel) I have 3 hydrometers measuring temperature and humidity at all times - generally around 70% in the cool side (temperature around 24 degrees Celsius) and the hot side is around 40% (and around 36 degrees Celsius). It seems impossible to keep the basking area higher than that! I always spray the enclosure up to 80-90% and then let it dissipate down to those levels by the end of the day.

Every morning I give him a 20-30 minute soak in warm water and he always has access to a water bowl. I do forget to spray his carapace sometimes.

He has a humid hide, though tends to prefer sleeping inside a rock tunnel I made for him. The tunnel is enclosed on all sides and it is always at or above 80% humidity in there, so I’m not too bothered about it.

He goes outside pretty much every day (skipping those colder UK days) for at least half an hour, if not 2-3 hours. I have a UVB lamp ready for of the weather turns for a longer period of time.

He eats dandelion, nipplewort, rocket, kale, lambs lettuce, watercress, and plantain all on rotation, with a cuttlebone he frequently munches on and calcium dust a few times a week.

Hopefully I’ve not missed anything. I’m concerned his shell is pyramiding but I’ve also read that bumpy shell growth can be normal for babies and it will smooth out over time. I want to be sure. Given this is my first time caring for a tortoise, I’m not experienced in identifying pyramiding early.

Thank you again for your help, here are some extra pictures.

 

[RandyTortoise]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for checking this post.

This is my 9 month old eastern Hermann’s tortoise, Ernest. He’s an absolute delight! But I’m worried he could be starting to pyramid as his shell looks bumpy to my eye.

View attachment 391358

When my wife and I were researching tortoises before getting one, we came across this forum and the concept of pyramiding and committed to ensuring we took good care of it and to do everything possible to avoid pyramiding.

I then built the enclosure which is 120cm x 70cm (3ft by 2ft). I’m aware this is a little small but I have every intention to upgrade the size when he hits 1 year old (we’ll have a bigger place to put him by then!)

The enclosure is open topped, but I drape a big clear PVC sheet over the top of it to try and keep the humidity in (sort of like a poly tunnel) I have 3 hydrometers measuring temperature and humidity at all times - generally around 70% in the cool side (around 24 degrees Celsius) and the hot side is around 40% (and around 36 degrees Celsius). It seems impossible to keep the basking area higher than that! I always spray the enclosure up to 80-90% and then let it dissipate down to those levels by the end of the day.

Every morning I give him a 20-30 minute soak in warm water and he always has access to a water bowl. I do forget to spray his carapace sometimes.

He has a humid hide, though tends to prefer sleeping inside a rock tunnel I made for him. The tunnel is enclosed on all sides and it is always at or above 80% humidity in there, so I’m not too bothered about it.

He goes outside pretty much every day (skipping those colder UK days) for at least half an hour, if not 2-3 hours). I have a UVB lamp ready for of the weather turns for a longer period of time.

He eats dandelion, nipplewort, rocket, kale, lambs lettuce, watercress, and plantain all on rotation, with a cuttlebone he frequently munches on and calcium dust a few times a week.

Hopefully I’ve not missed anything. I’m concerned his shell is pyramiding but I’ve also read that bumpy shell growth can be normal for babies and it will smooth out over time. I want to be sure. Given this is my first time caring for a tortoise, I’m not experienced in identifying pyramiding early.

Thank you again for your help, here are some extra pictures.

Personally, he looks fine to me. I think what your are doing is spot on. Just occasionally add reptivite w vitamin D for calcium and vitamin d which helps with shell growth. At the end of the day, if you do your best and get a bit of pyramiding it isn’t the end of the world and he can still be super healthy. Sometimes it just happens a bit.

 

[zolasmum]

Ernest looks great ! We have a Hermanns tortoise (Zola) who will be 26 in a few days - we have had him since he was a baby, and he is wonderful ! I hope Ernest will bring you as much joy as Zola has done for us.
Welcome and all best wishes
Angie

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Welcome to the forum! What kind of bulbs are you using? Some bulbs can have a desiccating effect on the shell and cause pyramiding.

 

[zovick]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for checking this post.

This is my 9 month old eastern Hermann’s tortoise, Ernest. He’s an absolute delight! But I’m worried he could be starting to pyramid as his shell looks bumpy to my eye.

View attachment 391358

When my wife and I were researching tortoises before getting one, we came across this forum and the concept of pyramiding and committed to ensuring we took good care of it and to do everything possible to avoid pyramiding.

I then built the enclosure which is 120cm x 70cm (3ft by 2ft). I’m aware this is a little small but I have every intention to upgrade the size when he hits 1 year old (we’ll have a bigger place to put him by then!)

The enclosure is open topped, but I drape a big clear PVC sheet over the top of it to try and keep the humidity in (sort of like a poly tunnel) I have 3 hydrometers measuring temperature and humidity at all times - generally around 70% in the cool side (temperature around 24 degrees Celsius) and the hot side is around 40% (and around 36 degrees Celsius). It seems impossible to keep the basking area higher than that! I always spray the enclosure up to 80-90% and then let it dissipate down to those levels by the end of the day.

Every morning I give him a 20-30 minute soak in warm water and he always has access to a water bowl. I do forget to spray his carapace sometimes.

He has a humid hide, though tends to prefer sleeping inside a rock tunnel I made for him. The tunnel is enclosed on all sides and it is always at or above 80% humidity in there, so I’m not too bothered about it.

He goes outside pretty much every day (skipping those colder UK days) for at least half an hour, if not 2-3 hours. I have a UVB lamp ready for of the weather turns for a longer period of time.

He eats dandelion, nipplewort, rocket, kale, lambs lettuce, watercress, and plantain all on rotation, with a cuttlebone he frequently munches on and calcium dust a few times a week.

Hopefully I’ve not missed anything. I’m concerned his shell is pyramiding but I’ve also read that bumpy shell growth can be normal for babies and it will smooth out over time. I want to be sure. Given this is my first time caring for a tortoise, I’m not experienced in identifying pyramiding early.

Thank you again for your help, here are some extra pictures.

Yes, you are correct. Your tortoise has early signs of pyramiding. Not sure exactly why from reading your narrative, but the shell does have some raised growth. Perhaps it won't get any worse under your present care parameters, but only time will tell on that.

 

[Sdapsam]

Welcome to the forum! What kind of bulbs are you using? Some bulbs can have a desiccating effect on the shell and cause pyramiding.

Thank you. For the basking bulb I'm using an Arcadia 100 watt solar basking flood light. It's hanging at a height whereby the ground temperature is about 36 degrees celsius. For the CHE I'm using an Arcadia 100 Watt infrared bulb hooked up to a thermostat (ministat 600 I believe). That switches off when the temperature hits 26-27 degrees celsius.

 

[Sdapsam]

Yes, you are correct. Your tortoise has early signs of pyramiding. Not sure exactly why from reading your narrative, but the shell does have some raised growth. Perhaps it won't get any worse under your present care parameters, but only time will tell on that.

I've had him since late march, so he was already 7 months old when I got him and his shell isn't really looking too different since then I don't think (hard to tell in the span of only 2 months). The breeder I purchased him from did soak him and his siblings every day and had done since they hatched, so I had no worries about him being dry-started.

Do you know what I might be able to expect about his shell shape going forward?

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Thank you. For the basking bulb I'm using an Arcadia 100 watt solar basking flood light. It's hanging at a height whereby the ground temperature is about 36 degrees celsius. For the CHE I'm using an Arcadia 100 Watt infrared bulb hooked up to a thermostat (ministat 600 I believe). That switches off when the temperature hits 26-27 degrees celsius.

That bulb emits red light am I right?

 

[RandyTortoise]

Sometimes, you do everything right and you still get a bit of pyramiding. At the end of the day, focus on proper nutrition, uvb lighting and temperatures with humidity. Guess what, many tortoises with pyramiding are very healthy, it just doesn’t look as good as a smooth shell. In fact in leopard tortoises there has been pyramiding seen in wild tortoises.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

There’s minor pyramiding but if you say it’s not changed much since the breeder it likely started before you got him, all your levels and bulbs sound good so I wouldn’t be too concerned, hopefully it’ll smooth out moving forward, do you use a t5 bulb for your uv?

Feel free to check these links to double check everything, you sound like you have things set up correctly but never hurts to go over these, care advice can be pretty dire here in the uk

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes different closed chamber options should you need them in the future

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

This one is good to keep on hand too

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Tom]

Thank you. For the basking bulb I'm using an Arcadia 100 watt solar basking flood light. It's hanging at a height whereby the ground temperature is about 36 degrees celsius. For the CHE I'm using an Arcadia 100 Watt infrared bulb hooked up to a thermostat (ministat 600 I believe). That switches off when the temperature hits 26-27 degrees celsius.

Yes he is pyramiding and its because of the bulbs you are using and the open topped enclosure.

The Arcadia "solar" bulb is a mercury vapor UV bulb, right? The all-in-one type? Those cause pyramiding even in a humid closed chamber. This is because they overly desiccate the new growing tissue in the growth seams. Same with the infrared bulb. You should be using a CHE if night heat is needed, but unless your house gets below 10C (50F), there is no need for night heat.

The basking temperature needs to be 36C at tortoise shell height, not on the ground. Measure by laying a digital thermometer on its back raised up to tortoise shell height. Let it cook under the bulb for an hour or more. Raise or lower the fixture to get the correct temperature.

It may already be too late, but switching to a large closed chamber might help the new growth come in smoother. Check out "Southdown Aquatics" in the UK for custom closed chamber "vivariums" at a reasonable price.

 

[Sdapsam]

Yes he is pyramiding and its because of the bulbs you are using and the open topped enclosure.

The Arcadia "solar" bulb is a mercury vapor UV bulb, right? The all-in-one type? Those cause pyramiding even in a humid closed chamber. This is because they overly desiccate the new growing tissue in the growth seams. Same with the infrared bulb. You should be using a CHE if night heat is needed, but unless your house gets below 10C (50F), there is no need for night heat.

The basking temperature needs to be 36C at tortoise shell height, not on the ground. Measure by laying a digital thermometer on its back raised up to tortoise shell height. Let it cook under the bulb for an hour or more. Raise or lower the fixture to get the correct temperature.

It may already be too late, but switching to a large closed chamber might help the new growth come in smoother. Check out "Southdown Aquatics" in the UK for custom closed chamber "vivariums" at a reasonable price.

Hi Tom, thanks for checking out my post.

The basking bulb doesn’t seem to be a mercury vapour bulb. I have read your posts about this in the past and tried to avoid it. This is the one I am using and it doesn’t mention being a mercury vapour bulb anywhere: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0D2BJW297?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

The CHE I’m using is this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06XCZ33GV?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Interesting about the night heat, I don’t believe my house does go below 10 Celsius but I’ll do some checks tonight and see. Would love to get rid of it if so, save on electricity bills hahah.

Regarding the closed chamber, may I ask does not putting the PVC sheet over the enclosure (effectively a poly tunnel) accomplish the same or nearly the same effect? Interested to hear about that as I have read elsewhere that it’s a good solution to combat the problems of an open topped enclosure.

One more question: when you say “irreversible” i know this means the raised growth won’t smooth out, but with the right care and parameters, will it get worse? Basically, have I caught it early enough for it to not affect the tortoises life?

Many thanks for your time.

There’s minor pyramiding but if you say it’s not changed much since the breeder it likely started before you got him, all your levels and bulbs sound good so I wouldn’t be too concerned, hopefully it’ll smooth out moving forward, do you use a t5 bulb for your uv?

Feel free to check these links to double check everything, you sound like you have things set up correctly but never hurts to go over these, care advice can be pretty dire here in the uk

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes different closed chamber options should you need them in the future

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

This one is good to keep on hand too

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Welcome to the forum!

Super helpful, thank you for taking the time to find and link.

I do use a T5 bulb for my UV, the 12% one. As yet it’s not been needed as the weathers been great and he gets plenty of time outdoors. Once we return to our usual UK pattern I will install it.

That bulb emits red light am I right?

Not visible red light if that’s what you mean? It’s IR-C so infrared I believe.

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom, thanks for checking out my post.

The basking bulb doesn’t seem to be a mercury vapour bulb. I have read your posts about this in the past and tried to avoid it. This is the one I am using and it doesn’t mention being a mercury vapour bulb anywhere: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0D2BJW297?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

The CHE I’m using is this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06XCZ33GV?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Each of these links shows a whole page of many different bulbs, so I'm not sure which ones you are using. The sellers and manufacturers are constantly changing the names in an effort to trick people into buying their bulbs. It can be very confusing. Using the wrong bulbs will contribute to pyramiding, and it seems like you have the wrong ones from your first post. Can you click on the bulbs you have and link those pages?

Regarding the closed chamber, may I ask does not putting the PVC sheet over the enclosure (effectively a poly tunnel) accomplish the same or nearly the same effect? Interested to hear about that as I have read elsewhere that it’s a good solution to combat the problems of an open topped enclosure.

It can help if the heat and lights are all contained inside and ventilation is reduced enough. Preventing pyramiding is not too hard with the right enclosure set up. Stopping pyramiding in progress can be much more difficult. I don't know if putting a PVC sheet over the top will do it, especially given your low humidity readings on the warm side of the enclosure. Time will tell. If it were me, and reducing the rate of pyramiding mattered to me, I'd go get the best type of enclosure I could to help stop it.

One more question: when you say “irreversible” i know this means the raised growth won’t smooth out, but with the right care and parameters, will it get worse? Basically, have I caught it early enough for it to not affect the tortoises life?

In most cases, pyramiding is cosmetic. You can have a healthy tortoise that is pyramided. You can also have a smooth tortoise that is unhealthy, when kept incorrectly. Pyramiding indicates a problem with the housing and care routine. That is why it matters to me. Whether or not it gets better or worse wholly depends on how the tortoise is housed and cared for. Frequent soaking, warm humid stable conditions in a closed chamber, using bulbs that don't do more damage, and good internal hydration all help. Another benefit of a closed chamber is a warmer ambient temp during the day, which translates to less basking under desiccating bulbs. A PVC sheet will not hold in heat as well as a proper closed chamber.

I hope this info helps you to make informed decisions. All of your questions are welcome.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

The sellers and manufacturers are constantly changing the names in an effort to trick people into buying their bulbs.

And to get around the changing laws...

 

[Sdapsam]

Each of these links shows a whole page of many different bulbs, so I'm not sure which ones you are using. The sellers and manufacturers are constantly changing the names in an effort to trick people into buying their bulbs. It can be very confusing. Using the wrong bulbs will contribute to pyramiding, and it seems like you have the wrong ones from your first post. Can you click on the bulbs you have and link those pages?


It can help if the heat and lights are all contained inside and ventilation is reduced enough. Preventing pyramiding is not too hard with the right enclosure set up. Stopping pyramiding in progress can be much more difficult. I don't know if putting a PVC sheet over the top will do it, especially given your low humidity readings on the warm side of the enclosure. Time will tell. If it were me, and reducing the rate of pyramiding mattered to me, I'd go get the best type of enclosure I could to help stop it.


In most cases, pyramiding is cosmetic. You can have a healthy tortoise that is pyramided. You can also have a smooth tortoise that is unhealthy, when kept incorrectly. Pyramiding indicates a problem with the housing and care routine. That is why it matters to me. Whether or not it gets better or worse wholly depends on how the tortoise is housed and cared for. Frequent soaking, warm humid stable conditions in a closed chamber, using bulbs that don't do more damage, and good internal hydration all help. Another benefit of a closed chamber is a warmer ambient temp during the day, which translates to less basking under desiccating bulbs. A PVC sheet will not hold in heat as well as a proper closed chamber.

I hope this info helps you to make informed decisions. All of your questions are welcome.

Ah, I’m so sorry. Perhaps it was because I’m using the UK Amazon rather than the US… I have instead provided screenshots of the product, hopefully you can tell from these. How horrible that they change the names of products, companies are just the worst. Please let me know if these are indeed mercury vapour bulbs and I’ll change them immediately if so!

This is the basking bulb.






And this is the CHE I was using, but after testing house temps last night it’s clear I don’t need it, as my house only fell to 20 degrees Celsius.






Fair comments regarding the enclosure. I think I could fairly easily adapt the one I’ve built into having a roof. That’ll be a question for a woodworking forum though… I’ll get onto it!

Cosmetic or not, like you it matters to me that his care and housing is right. Too many tortoises out there which are clearly struggling and I don’t want to be part of the problem. This forum is so helpful for that reason, I love how much everyone cares about doing the best thing for the animal.

Please let me know about the bulbs, and I’m sure I’ll have more questions to come!

Thank you.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Ah, I’m so sorry. Perhaps it was because I’m using the UK Amazon rather than the US… I have instead provided screenshots of the product, hopefully you can tell from these. How horrible that they change the names of products, companies are just the worst. Please let me know if these are indeed mercury vapour bulbs and I’ll change them immediately if so!

This is the basking bulb.

View attachment 391489

View attachment 391490


And this is the CHE I was using, but after testing house temps last night it’s clear I don’t need it, as my house only fell to 20 degrees Celsius.


View attachment 391491

View attachment 391492

Fair comments regarding the enclosure. I think I could fairly easily adapt the one I’ve built into having a roof. That’ll be a question for a woodworking forum though… I’ll get onto it!

Cosmetic or not, like you it matters to me that his care and housing is right. Too many tortoises out there which are clearly struggling and I don’t want to be part of the problem. This forum is so helpful for that reason, I love how much everyone cares about doing the best thing for the animal.

Please let me know about the bulbs, and I’m sure I’ll have more questions to come!

Thank you.

The CHE is fine so long as its connected to a thermostat. That basking bulb, however, is halogen which causes the dessicating effect on new growth that Tom discussed earlier. You want to find a flood bulb that specifically says "incandescent".

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

The CHE is fine so long as its connected to a thermostat. That basking bulb, however, is halogen which causes the dessicating effect on new growth that Tom discussed earlier. You want to find a flood bulb that specifically says "incandescent".

I’m not sure why it says halogen under bulb type, but that is definitely arcadias floodlight which is fine to use

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I’m not sure why it says halogen under bulb type, but that is definitely arcadias floodlight which is fine to use

Arcadia sells all types. For example, the "GoldenSuns" specifically mention being incandescent.

 

[Tom]

Ah, I’m so sorry. Perhaps it was because I’m using the UK Amazon rather than the US… I have instead provided screenshots of the product, hopefully you can tell from these. How horrible that they change the names of products, companies are just the worst. Please let me know if these are indeed mercury vapour bulbs and I’ll change them immediately if so!

This is the basking bulb.

View attachment 391489

View attachment 391490


And this is the CHE I was using, but after testing house temps last night it’s clear I don’t need it, as my house only fell to 20 degrees Celsius.


View attachment 391491

View attachment 391492

Fair comments regarding the enclosure. I think I could fairly easily adapt the one I’ve built into having a roof. That’ll be a question for a woodworking forum though… I’ll get onto it!

Cosmetic or not, like you it matters to me that his care and housing is right. Too many tortoises out there which are clearly struggling and I don’t want to be part of the problem. This forum is so helpful for that reason, I love how much everyone cares about doing the best thing for the animal.

Please let me know about the bulbs, and I’m sure I’ll have more questions to come!

Thank you.

You've got both of the correct bulbs. I don't think you need the CHE though. You could set it on a thermostat to keep ambient above 15-18C over night if you wanted to, but probably unnecessary if room temp is already near that.

 

[Tom]

The CHE is fine so long as its connected to a thermostat. That basking bulb, however, is halogen which causes the dessicating effect on new growth that Tom discussed earlier. You want to find a flood bulb that specifically says "incandescent".

I see where it says that in the description, but I think that is wrong. It would say it on the packaging if this was a halogen, and halogens don't look like this.

There was another recent thread where Amazon had a ZooMed T8 tube labeled as a T8 HO tube. T8 types are not HO. These seems to be more and more of this incorrect labeling. I don't know if it is ignorance, or trickery trying to use certain "buzzwords" to make it seem more valuable.