Is using coconut oil worth using ?

[Tidgy's Dad]

Here is some pictures of how its setup . You see the pictures of the reds in full sun ? Where are they ? In water to cool down . I really never see them just sitting and baking themselves . Like my water turtles do .

Nice pictures, Mike.

 

[SteveW]

I find a few things of concern with this set up.. First of all.. A single uvb lamp will not emit the full spectrum that the sun provides if the tortoise is outside... A single heat emitter with a fan is strictly infrared emission. you the you the you L the you So you strictly rely on the uvb bulb you use to provide the entire spectrum the sun provides.. And that does not happen with any uvb bulb on the market. You need multiple bulbs of different kinds to fully hit the spectrum the sun provides. To me your habitat lacks the the full spectrum you would see outside. Where as the use of bulbs allow a wider range of possible sun like emissions. Tortoises see parts of the spectrum outside humans capabilities like infrared and deeper uv, it is how they distinguish food and all kinds of stuff.

Tortoises also like to bask. They are seen doing it all the time in nature. But yet all you are providing is ambient heat and no basking heat to really warm the core temp up. So maybe I am wrong but to me when I see my tortoises lay under a bulbs hot zone as part of their routine, to me I see some behavior as though that bulb is the sun. They bask.
View attachment 158794
View attachment 158794
They like to fall asleep in the hot area even though my ambient temp is 85f. And my shaded moist areas can go down to about 75f. So they can easily reach any temp they want. Yet they choose the warmest area to sleep, sometimes for hours.


Also I feel like for Russian tortoise 90 f is to low. My tortoises will bask under a hot zone steady at 98f. Even though they can go to any area and reach any temp they like down to 75f during the day. And my night ambient temp is between 68 and 72 almost always.

And I never said you needed coconut oil. I said it can help, majority of keepers I see use some sort of bulb. Very few use radiant heat panels, or some style NON hot spot emitter like ceramic emitter. They still emit unfiltered infrared no matter how you cut it. If a tort chose to bask under any style of unfiltered basking lamp they are being bombarded with unfiltered emissions that interact with moisture through the habitat and the tortoises anatomy.

Interesting. I have a few questions.
1) I had no idea that tortoises see infrared. I'd love to see a reference along that line.

2) Not all tortoises like to bask. I have a Redfoot and a Mep and both avoid bright lights or at least don't linger there. I guess that isn't a question, more of a correction.

3) Have you considered that your tortoise sleeping under the lights is after heat and not illumination? Perhaps you could try a shaded area in the 90's.

4) which bulbs or combination of bulbs are you using that duplicates the entire spectrum of the sun? It would be awesome to see some spectroscopy.

5). What informs your assertion that most folks don't use CHE or radiant heat panels? It's a small sample size, but I don't know anyone that doesn't.

6) Getting back to your light-as-heat setup; have you considered the possibility that by providing adequate (as demonstrated by your tortoises behavior) heat only in combination with very bright, direct light, you are inadvertently creating the conditions that coconut oil may help with?

Sorry for so many questions. Inquiring minds just want to know

 

[mike taylor]

Why thank you Sir . I try to make my animals happy . If you watch them you will find the energy levels are higher when you give them the right temperatures . If you have it to hot they get lazy . To cold lazy . Just right moving pooping machines . But this is just how I do it . Plus I didn't spray any of my animals before the pictures . That's from early morning or late afternoon humidity . From my humidifiers . Plus they love their water bowls .

 

[mike taylor]

I know they have pyramiding . All my tortoises come second hand rescues if you will. I only bought one red foot . She was six inches and bumpy when I got here . I got my two big sulcatas from Kelly's rescue and one red foot . The other reds came from some ex members here and friends . The small smooth sulcata going in is house I got as a baby . My wife pick him up from a pet store . He is the only one that I've had from a baby . Besides my two leopards .

 

[mike taylor]

You can see how small dozer was in the Pictures . Here are my two leopards . The black one I got from Kelly's place . The white one was from Greg T . None of them have metabolic bone disease . From lack of ten uvb lamps . My tortoises do have uvb fixtures indoors . The key is let them outside when possible .Feed them foods that are good for them . Provide the right hydration you you will not need to oil your tortoise .

 

[mike taylor]

This oil thing really chaps me . Where in nature do you find the tortoise gods oiling tortoises ? That's just like when people say their enclosures are to big . Where in nature do you see the tortoise gods building small boxed in areas for them ? Adjust your heat and humidity . Get your tortoises outside . Feed them as close as you can to what they eat in the wild . Get them hot lamps off their backs . How do you heat your houses in winter ? People keep forgetting the microclimate ! Tortoises use the crap out of them . Try making the perfect microclimate. Your tortoises will let you know they like it by doing what they do . Walking ,eating, pooping, and humping . But who am I ? I'm just a guy . I have no college degrees .

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I find a few things of concern with this set up.. First of all.. A single uvb lamp will not emit the full spectrum that the sun provides if the tortoise is outside... A single heat emitter with a fan is strictly infrared emission. you the you the you L the you So you strictly rely on the uvb bulb you use to provide the entire spectrum the sun provides.. And that does not happen with any uvb bulb on the market. You need multiple bulbs of different kinds to fully hit the spectrum the sun provides. To me your habitat lacks the the full spectrum you would see outside. Where as the use of bulbs allow a wider range of possible sun like emissions. Tortoises see parts of the spectrum outside humans capabilities like infrared and deeper uv, it is how they distinguish food and all kinds of stuff.

Tortoises also like to bask. They are seen doing it all the time in nature. But yet all you are providing is ambient heat and no basking heat to really warm the core temp up. So maybe I am wrong but to me when I see my tortoises lay under a bulbs hot zone as part of their routine, to me I see some behavior as though that bulb is the sun. They bask.
View attachment 158794
View attachment 158794
They like to fall asleep in the hot area even though my ambient temp is 85f. And my shaded moist areas can go down to about 75f. So they can easily reach any temp they want. Yet they choose the warmest area to sleep, sometimes for hours.


Also I feel like for Russian tortoise 90 f is to low. My tortoises will bask under a hot zone steady at 98f. Even though they can go to any area and reach any temp they like down to 75f during the day. And my night ambient temp is between 68 and 72 almost always.

And I never said you needed coconut oil. I said it can help, majority of keepers I see use some sort of bulb. Very few use radiant heat panels, or some style NON hot spot emitter like ceramic emitter. They still emit unfiltered infrared no matter how you cut it. If a tort chose to bask under any style of unfiltered basking lamp they are being bombarded with unfiltered emissions that interact with moisture through the habitat and the tortoises anatomy.

i am a little concerned by this post.
Tortoises do not see in infra red.
What is deep uv ?
Tortoises see UVA but not any 'deeper', they cannot see UVB.
Many people I know on the forum use CHE's for heating and most pet shops I have visited in Europe sell them for use with tortoises (and other animals).
I am about to embark on reading your huge coconut oil thread, but am now a little concerned that you are printing pages out of books and research papers to support your argument without understanding either science or how people keep tortoises.
I hope I am wrong because your tortoises look beautiful and i at least hope the coconut oil would be useful in the case of very dry and flaky shells.
I use a bulb only during long periods of very bad weather, mostly my tort is out in the day. I know no one else that uses a bulb at all in this country, they're not available here and no one I've met who owns a tortoise has even heard it is a good idea. There are hundreds of keepers in this city alone.
So perhaps the oil isn't necessary for us anyway.
But I do, honestly, look forward to reading the whole 'big thread' in more detail , as I am certain there is something to be learned here.

 

[SteveW]

This oil thing really chaps me . .

You know, I bet some extra virgin organic coconut oil would help with the chapping.

 

[SteveW]

i am a little concerned by this post.
Tortoises do not see in infra red.
What is deep uv ?
Tortoises see UVA but not any 'deeper', they cannot see UVB.
Many people I know on the forum use CHE's for heating and most pet shops I have visited in Europe sell them for use with tortoises (and other animals).
I am about to embark on reading your huge coconut oil thread, but am now a little concerned that you are printing pages out of books and research papers to support your argument without understanding either science or how people keep tortoises.
I hope I am wrong because your tortoises look beautiful and i at least hope the coconut oil would be useful in the case of very dry and flaky shells.
I use a bulb only during long periods of very bad weather, mostly my tort is out in the day. I know no one else that uses a bulb at all in this country, they're not available here and no one I've met who owns a tortoise has even heard it is a good idea. There are hundreds of keepers in this city alone.
So perhaps the oil isn't necessary for us anyway.
But I do, honestly, look forward to reading the whole 'big thread' in more detail , as I am certain there is something to be learned here.

Well said, sir.

 

[mike taylor]

You know, I bet some extra virgin organic coconut oil would help with the chapping.

You think I should use several lamps also ?

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

You think I should use several lamps also ?

As far as I can tell it is being suggested that the use of UVB bulbs and basking bulbs dries out the tortoises carapace and so the use of this EVCO can replace lost moisture in the shell keratin. Fair enough, but surely the sun would dry out the tortoises even more, indeed more so, unless you use the full range of bulbs as is being suggested.
It is obvious that many keepers in colder climes such as out British friends and many in some parts of the USA need to provide UVB and heat for their tortoises for at least a few months a year, but to suggest using several bulbs is a little strange, these things are expensive, many keepers have to stretch themselves to replace theirs every six months or so and that's for just one bulb.
Many owners on this forum keep their tortoises almost entirely or, indeed, entirely in an indoor enclosure, people who live in flats, as just one example and many of their tortoises that i have seen photographed look perfectly alright to me as long as their set up is good.

 

[mike taylor]

Exactly ! That's all I'm saying . Make a good microclimate ! You can over think somethings to death . You can heat a enclosure without all them heat lamps to .

 

[mike taylor]

When are people going to understand microclimates . If its 120 ° the tortoises are going to find shade . Be it underground in a bush or mud hole . There's one thing common with all three humidity . Under a bush is humid dug down . The hole or borrow is humid . The water hole is humid . All three are cooler than out in the sun . What happens in the morning ? As the cool night air warms it makes dew right . That's when most animals come out of hiding get some food and water . Then as the day heats up they find a shady spot . Then as the day cools off they eat then find a place to hide . They don't stay out with sun roasting them .

 

[mike taylor]

I'm not saying they don't need to bask some do . They don't do it all day every day . So stop making them in small enclosures . Give them room To get away from the heat . Give them a humid hide . Give them water . Then maybe you will not need to rub oils all over your tortoise .

 

[glitch4200]

i am a little concerned by this post.
Tortoises do not see in infra red.
What is deep uv ?
Tortoises see UVA but not any 'deeper', they cannot see UVB.
Many people I know on the forum use CHE's for heating and most pet shops I have visited in Europe sell them for use with tortoises (and other animals).
I am about to embark on reading your huge coconut oil thread, but am now a little concerned that you are printing pages out of books and research papers to support your argument without understanding either science or how people keep tortoises.
I hope I am wrong because your tortoises look beautiful and i at least hope the coconut oil would be useful in the case of very dry and flaky shells.
I use a bulb only during long periods of very bad weather, mostly my tort is out in the day. I know no one else that uses a bulb at all in this country, they're not available here and no one I've met who owns a tortoise has even heard it is a good idea. There are hundreds of keepers in this city alone.
So perhaps the oil isn't necessary for us anyway.
But I do, honestly, look forward to reading the whole 'big thread' in more detail , as I am certain there is something to be learned here.

I wish could find the article from the dude in Africa that studies sulcata, and that showed that tortoises see better spectrum then humans. First off humans can't see uva, are visable spectrum stops at violet, uva is squarely in the UV side of the spectrum. Unseeable to humans. But visible to tortoises.

so that would be my considering deeper spectrum.. And according the article I read they can see past the red visible spectrum to a deeper shade of red, which is what infrared dissappear from red to full invisible infrared (heat).

And I trust in my self to understand the science behind it.. I am going to be going into clinical psychology, specifically drug research in the field of neurology. My entire profession is based off of correctly citing and sourcing research articles and creating the framework to my own research. I would hope damn well I know how to research and to present it properly.

Bringing me to my next point.. I have laid out multiple premises to coconut oil, backed up with research from multiple journals. Its taken me some time but I will be presenting a 40 plus page research paper on unfiltered infrared and coconut oil use in tortoises. Literally going over every single thing I have learned and sharing it all with you. Fully sited and sourced.

 

[glitch4200]

As far as I can tell it is being suggested that the use of UVB bulbs and basking bulbs dries out the tortoises carapace and so the use of this EVCO can replace lost moisture in the shell keratin. Fair enough, but surely the sun would dry out the tortoises even more, indeed more so, unless you use the full range of bulbs as is being suggested.
It is obvious that many keepers in colder climes such as out British friends and many in some parts of the USA need to provide UVB and heat for their tortoises for at least a few months a year, but to suggest using several bulbs is a little strange, these things are expensive, many keepers have to stretch themselves to replace theirs every six months or so and that's for just one bulb.
Many owners on this forum keep their tortoises almost entirely or, indeed, entirely in an indoor enclosure, people who live in flats, as just one example and many of their tortoises that i have seen photographed look perfectly alright to me as long as their set up is good.

The sun does NOT dry out the shell and skin like unfiltered basking bulbs do. The sun is strictly water filtered because of a presence of an atmosphere between the sun and earth that is completely filled with water vapor. All basking lamps are unfiltered because any emissions in the infrared side of the spectrum that emits IR-A and lacks a atmosphere between bulb and tort WILL be unfiltered. No atmosphere with water, no water filtration.

Now if you don't have a water filtered basking lamp.. And that basking lamp is used on any tortoise. That basking lamp promotes what is called localized heating and environmental dehydration. That is the super heated sections of beta and alpha Kerstin due to bad heat distribution from the lamps. The bad distribution of heat creates hot spots in the skin and shell due to over heating tissues vibrating and loosing both water from the blood and hydrogen from the alpha Kerstin amino acid chains which stabilize the entire protein.. Also due to some preliminary experiments on habitat dehydration from basking lamps that I am currently running. Set ups that use unfiltered basking lamps such as a 100 watt mercury vapor or other incandescent or halogen bulbs dehydrate the habitat by as much as 1.8 quarts of water a day when used in combo with one another lamp from lights on to lights off. Ever wonder why you are constantly soaking the substrate? It is because the unfiltered bulbs suck all the relative humidity out.

Here is a great article on unfiltered basking bulbs.

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html

Here is Dr.Francis Baines of the UVguide.uk talking about the difference between basking lamps and the sun. Who by the way I am in contact with about my research in reptile lighting, and who has agreed to review my work.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/

This picture comes from someone who also worked with her on full spectrum lighting and made this picture repenting a full correct lighting scheme, that allows full spectrum of the sun being mimicked while offering the correct temp gradients.


The idea of using many lamps to heat and light a tort has to do with basking zone vs basking 'spot and distribution of light correctly and evenly throughout so you don't have a dark area except for shaded areas.



The use of one lamp will clearly give a basking' spot' which ultimately leads to poor thermal regulation, localized heating of tissues, and a narrow hot zone to move around in. This increases basking time as ambient heat isn't as good as it can be with the use of more then one lamp. All bulbs are engineered to have a coverage zone. Which on majority of bulbs are very little.. Only flood lamps offer a wide beam.. So the use of multiple lamps at a higher distance isn't dumb at all. It provides a wide basking zone, better ambient heat control, less localized heating and a better distribution of 'seeing' light.

 

[glitch4200]

I'm not saying they don't need to bask some do . They don't do it all day every day . So stop making them in small enclosures . Give them room To get away from the heat . Give them a humid hide . Give them water . Then maybe you will not need to rub oils all over your tortoise .

First of all. I make sure they always have a very moist Microclimate. As their is no "Microclimate" without the presence of moisture in the substrste. What did we just finish talking about? Dehydration of the habitat due to lamps. Hard to maintain a microclimate in a habitat that is constantly dried out by days end.

Unless your very consistent on soaks and habitat hydration, you will quickly see how fast you lose a microclimate... Have you ever realized some people in colder climates do not have the luxury to keep their tortoises outdoors, except for a few months out of the year. That means the other 6 to 7 months are spent under artificial basking bulbs. The sun is the best of the best, you can't beat it. If you can keep your tortoise away from all dissecting unfiltered basking bulbs majority of the year.. Then I applaud you. Because in my situation I can't. Since your tortoises do not stay exposed to such artificial basking lamps you don't see what these lamps do to tortoises who are exposed to them for the long term, except through others maybe.

I see through out social media many many people's habitats, all see the common issue of constantly drying out habitats due to basking bulbs. And tortoises who are exposed to these lamps for extreme periods of times for whatevee reason usually has some form of dehydrated tort, dry shell or skin, or constantly fighting the dry habitats.

Now, I soak my tortoise almost every day for the length of time they choose, I provide humid hides in all my shaded areas. I use microfiber towels that are soaked in numerous places to help keep relative humidity in. I constantly soak the habitat with water to give the best microclimate possible yet even with a that hydration, I still saw localized drying out of the shell and skin. Until I started coconut oil that is. Now I don't see that effect from these lamps on the shell and skin, from my personal experience after over a year of consistent application


And it has been shown that a closed chamber is much easier to stabilize those variables then an open table top. I fully agree. But both my habitats are partially open table tops with roofs, making my relative humidity almost impossible to stabilize. My humidity is constantly struggling to stay above 50 percent. And I see levels as low as 30 percent, even though I try my hardest to keep it above 60 percent. That means my habitat is dry mostly, and it has been shown through numerous sources here that dry habitats promote pyramiding. Yet I have not been seeing any in my tortoises and I attribute that soley on my consistency on soaks and my use of coconut oil.

 

[glitch4200]

Interesting. I have a few questions.
1) I had no idea that tortoises see infrared. I'd love to see a reference along that line.

2) Not all tortoises like to bask. I have a Redfoot and a Mep and both avoid bright lights or at least don't linger there. I guess that isn't a question, more of a correction.

3) Have you considered that your tortoise sleeping under the lights is after heat and not illumination? Perhaps you could try a shaded area in the 90's.

4) which bulbs or combination of bulbs are you using that duplicates the entire spectrum of the sun? It would be awesome to see some spectroscopy.

5). What informs your assertion that most folks don't use CHE or radiant heat panels? It's a small sample size, but I don't know anyone that doesn't.

6) Getting back to your light-as-heat setup; have you considered the possibility that by providing adequate (as demonstrated by your tortoises behavior) heat only in combination with very bright, direct light, you are inadvertently creating the conditions that coconut oil may help with?

Sorry for so many questions. Inquiring minds just want to know

#1. I wish I could find the article, it is buried under 2 plus months of threads on Facebook.

#2. I disagree all torts like to bask in the sun. They are solar powered.. Now basking in the bright artifical lamps might not be as pleasurable as the sun, or maybe they don't like to bask because the lighting scheme is not conducive to basking. Or maybe different species like different things. I could see a redfoot no bask as much as let's say a Russian. But they would still bask.

#3 yes. It's possible, they might like the 90 f. Shaded heated side, but then limiting my light in an already small habitat isn't really conducive to wanting to explore. If I had a huge indoor habitat with a lot of space I would incorporate a separate heated shade area. Now due to the size of my habitat voiding a side of light would not be feasible.

#4 I personally don't have the full spectrum replicated with my bulbs yet. But a full spectrum would include the use of the combo of the following bulbs.
* Arcadia T8 uvb 12 percent stripe tube. = deeper blues and violets, Uva, uvb, (strictly seeing light and uvb)
* 5000k full spectrum florescent tube= full visable light (strictly seeing light)
* ** watt metal halide = Uva and visable spectrum and heat
* par38 halogen flood lamp = heat
As outlined by the illustration.


#5 My constant social media presence and being apart of every tortoise group available. The use of bulbs and ceramic emitters are rampant. Very few people I have seen use radiant heat panels. Many do use ceramic heating elements but they are the very worst tissue heaters... So using them as basking bulbs is very detrimental to the skin ns shell. The infrared emitted in the CHE is very poor tissue penetrators meaning they lose their energy at the top of tissues.. They don't deep tissue heat like IR-A, which is why you need a basking bulb. As they emit the most IR-A. Which is a deep core heating.. The energy in IR-A penetrates deeply to provide very good core heating. Constantly superheating the tissues from a CHE, as a basking bulb will clearly cause severe tissue dehydration just from knowing the mechanics behind tissue heating.

#6 . Sure I have considered it.. But knowing what I know from my study on these artificial lamps, I know that a ceramic emitter isn't the best type of heat you can provide to a tortoise. I know people use them successfully in this forum but many many of keeps and new owners outside this forum who use them do not use them correctly... And the tortoise is pretty deformed from the poor localized heating and constant basking they do under these lamps, which promotes the localized heating and dehydration of tissue.. And I see that consnttly.. Not just from CHE but from all these lamps.. And not understand that these lamps steal water from the surrounding habitat and tort anatomy.

The sun is direct light.. That so just perfect. I thinking keeping them warm and in the dark is not conducive to seeing the full range of activity they can display. Maybe that is strictly species specific but I know my tortoises didn't do well when only one side was lit up and heated. They did much much better when the entire habitat was lit and heated.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

The sun does NOT dry out the shell and skin like unfiltered basking bulbs do. The sun is strictly water filtered because of a presence of an atmosphere between the sun and earth that is completely filled with water vapor. All basking lamps are unfiltered because any emissions in the infrared side of the spectrum that emits IR-A and lacks a atmosphere between bulb and tort WILL be unfiltered. No atmosphere with water, no water filtration.

Now if you don't have a water filtered basking lamp.. And that basking lamp is used on any tortoise. That basking lamp promotes what is called localized heating and environmental dehydration. That is the super heated sections of beta and alpha Kerstin due to bad heat distribution from the lamps. The bad distribution of heat creates hot spots in the skin and shell due to over heating tissues vibrating and loosing both water from the blood and hydrogen from the alpha Kerstin amino acid chains which stabilize the entire protein.. Also due to some preliminary experiments on habitat dehydration from basking lamps that I am currently running. Set ups that use unfiltered basking lamps such as a 100 watt mercury vapor or other incandescent or halogen bulbs dehydrate the habitat by as much as 1.8 quarts of water a day when used in combo with one another lamp from lights on to lights off. Ever wonder why you are constantly soaking the substrate? It is because the unfiltered bulbs suck all the relative humidity out.

Here is a great article on unfiltered basking bulbs.

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html

Here is Dr.Francis Baines of the UVguide.uk talking about the difference between basking lamps and the sun. Who by the way I am in contact with about my research in reptile lighting, and who has agreed to review my work.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/

This picture comes from someone who also worked with her on full spectrum lighting and made this picture repenting a full correct lighting scheme, that allows full spectrum of the sun being mimicked while offering the correct temp gradients.
View attachment 158877

The idea of using many lamps to heat and light a tort has to do with basking zone vs basking 'spot and distribution of light correctly and evenly throughout so you don't have a dark area except for shaded areas.

View attachment 158878

The use of one lamp will clearly give a basking' spot' which ultimately leads to poor thermal regulation, localized heating of tissues, and a narrow hot zone to move around in. This increases basking time as ambient heat isn't as good as it can be with the use of more then one lamp. All bulbs are engineered to have a coverage zone. Which on majority of bulbs are very little.. Only flood lamps offer a wide beam.. So the use of multiple lamps at a higher distance isn't dumb at all. It provides a wide basking zone, better ambient heat control, less localized heating and a better distribution of 'seeing' light.

Firstly, thank you so much for replying in such detail and taking some considerable time to respond to these posts.
It is all certainly very interesting.
Secondly,referring to your first reply to me, I am fully aware that humans cannot see the UV parts of the spectrum at all, and that tortoises can see UVA light, but your earlier post at least implied that they could see more of the UV range and Infra red, which they can't.
I look forward to your research paper with some anticipation.
Next, in the post to which this is a reply, you say the sun 'does NOT dry out the shell and skin like unfiltered basking lamps do.'
Well, they may not do it in the same way, precisely but the sun does dry out shells, skins and everything else. It dries out my skin very well given half a chance and my washing dries very quickly here. What does 'strictly water filtered' mean ? Why 'strictly' ? I am aware the Earth has an atmosphere, but it is not 'completely filled' with water vapour. Water vapour is about 1% average at sea level (though this varies) and 0.4% over the atmosphere as a whole. I understand that the filtering occurs through many kilometres of atmosphere and that lamps will have an unnatural effect, but sometimes it is the only possible option. It is not possible for most keepers to operate a system of multiple lamps at higher levels, we have to do the best we can.
How much would the sun or, indeed, ambient heat dehydrate the habitat ? I have to sometimes soak my substrate, not constantly, because it is hot here, not because of the bulb, i've not noticed any difference in the amount of times, or the amount of water I have to add to the substrate in the majority of the year when i don't use an MVB, or the short period of time when I do.
To go on to your following posts, a humid microclimate can be fairly easily maintained with a good closed chamber habitat, it isn't dried out by the end of the day, even with the lamp and CHE being used. The CHE is only used at night when my tortoise is in a nice humid hidey-hole.
However, some of the information on artificial lighting is very, erm, enlightening and I will read the thread on coconut oil with some interest to see if it does help with skin dryness without any negative effects or whether it's effects are purely cosmetic to give a nice shiny shell.
Thank you so much for this fascinating hypothesis.

 

[SteveW]

Well then. For the sake of expediency, I'll respond to just a few points and then ever so briefly. First, making a banal assertion like, "they are solar powered" is not the same as nor a replacement for evidence. What point are trying to make? What observation and of which species informs your opinion? I have only eight species and basking behavior is not consistent nor universal, nor is it adequately described by 'solar powered'.

Vast examples of poor husbandry on Facebook is not evidence for the need for coconut oil; it's evidence for the need for better husbandry. It's still irrelevant to the point.

Are your Russians adults? I ask because it appears their lack of pyramiding is being presented as evidence of efficacy. Do you happen to know if it is possible to generate pyramiding in an adult? I've never seen that.

UVA vision in tortoises is not being questioned. Your assertion that vision includes IR, however, is. Repeating and restating the former is of no utility in supporting the latter.

I like your hypothetical lighting set up. Have you tried it? Does it remove the need for regular oiling? If you're not raising hatchlings/juveniles under those conditions, how do you know?

I have difficulty spending much time following your threads as I find them high on volume and low on clarity, but I have noticed some commonality in your posts, aside from verbosity:

- Poor conditions on Facebook informs the need for oiling.
- charts and graphs of any correlated subjects are entered into evidence (who is arguing for the use of spot lights?)
- sweeping generalities are ignored (i.e. Adult Russians are assumed as representational.)
- your own husbandry is ignored. This is not intended to be mean spirited, but dude, that setup needs work.

Upon review, I guess that wasn't particularly brief. As to the OP and the question of is coconut oil necessary, I'd say the answer is that the need has not yet been established.