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Coconut Oil

Discussion in 'Debatable Topics' started by glitch4200, Oct 17, 2014.

  1. glitch4200

    glitch4200 Active Member

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    @Markw84 Sure, you asked a lot. I have to do some digging. So I want you to read a few previous posts in this thread before i continue because i answer many of your questions.

    A few things i would like to disagree with..
    • Natural sunlight does have Infrared A, B and C. It is just that during most atmospheric conditions C is blocked and B is majority blocked, but B still comes through in decent levels.
    • Natural sunlight DOES have infrared range past 2400nm. In fact.. It has Infrared into the 3500nm range. It is just that it does not have much power.
    A few posts I need you to read so a few more questions are answered.
    Pg. 23 Post 456 : Proliferation of scute/ growth phases Research
    Pg 19 Post 366 to 367: Scute biology, Thermal imaging connection
    Pg 15 Post 289 to 291: Coconut oil refractive index absorbs harmful artificial wavelengths

    Your question about how i know those specific wavelengths are dissecting I will find for you.
    Your question explaining the thermal load differences between Infrared A, B and C i will find for you. I need to find the thread that Dr. Frances Baines made describing the thermal load differences each type of infrared has.

    Now the epigenetics stuff, i have to dig for.. Not going to lie that is very intimidating about your sister. Good for her.. That is amazing. I hope she does not laugh at me... I will also look through my research. Someone that is very notable in this area is a researcher named Lombardi Alibardi. He talks about the enviornmental cues i was talking about, and how it impacted the expression of keratin frameworks.

    Just so people know.. i am not an expert in 98% of these areas i am talking about. I am a going to be neuropsychology clinician and theorist. I also am a Registered Behavioral Therapist. So i can understand complex stuff, so do forgive me if i mix up concepts and knowledge. I am trying my best. :)
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
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  2. Markw84

    Markw84 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Thanks so much for the response. I do appreciate all your thoughts, and just assumed you were used to the scientific process. So understand I am not trying to argue, but am interested in engaging on the testing of theory by peer review.

    I have not read the entire paper by Alibardi and will respond when I have time to do more justice to the whole paper and conclusions. However, I do immediately see where the only reference to α-keratin is with specific differentiation in the way aquatic turtle scutes develop. There an layer of α-keratin forms a thin layer (scission layer) that actually serves to separate the old upper layer of scute from the newer forming ß-keratin scute material forming below. Thus allowing shedding. In tortoises, the references are to ß-keratin primarily forming at the seams, etc.

    When we look at a lot of research papers, we see many that refer to a basic theory that pyramiding is caused by fast growth and by too much protein. SO just because it is in a research paper, does not make it a fact - it is often simply a theory to be tested. So many of the papers I have read on keratin go back and forth between mammal and reptile types in keratin since so much more is known about mammal keratin growth, but does not necessarily translate to reptiles. We see this with dietary items all the time too.

    When I speak of "natural sunlight" I am referring to the electromagnetic radiation that actually reaches earth, through the atmosphere. I went back to pull a chart of radiation for reference. This is a Spectrum of Solar Radiation showing the filtering effect of the atmosphere. As you can see, IR above 2400nm is negligible with the water absorption band starting at about 2400nm that almost completely eliminates IR above that.

    specturm of sunlight.jpg

    And, my sister would not laugh at all. She loves the scientific process. She has no problem when we throw ideas at each other for feedback. So anything you can find on your comments about "heat trigger genes" or "heat stressor genes" would be greatly appreciated.

    I think it also worth stating again that atmosphic absorption bands are not "water evaporation bands". The water molecule is simply gaining vibrational energy. Carbon Dioxide is also contributing to this in our atmosphere, not just water vapor. And the absorption bands of gaseous water is very different than liquid water. So to draw a direct reference to IR that would have been absorbed in the atmosphere, now drying a carapace excessively is not necessarily valid. However, I do believe there is something to Near-IR and it exacerbating pyramiding. So let the discussion continue!
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  3. KevinGG

    KevinGG Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Wow. What a great thread. I just participated in a thread about coconut oil that amounted to nothing. To be fair, I didn't help that. Really nice to see people actually doing research.

    This is incredibly interesting. I am so eager to read the papers you come back with. Thank you @Markw84 for providing the review. This can only get better from here. If we can continue this dialogue, I'd be willing to use some of my Greek hatchlings as an informal experiment. Should have some hatching in the spring. Obviously, more info needed both in terms of keratin growth and application of the oil.

    What an interesting concept though: Pyramiding is the body's response to heat dessication because beta keratin holds in moisture. This also makes sense in terms of when pyramiding occurs. If beta keratin was the only stage, wouldn't adults be subject to pyramiding in dessicating environments?

    My mom has done work on epigenetics as well. (Definitely not the leading expert though :) ) I'd love to go over some of this with her. Again, can't wait to see what you come back with! I'm supposed to be on meditation retreat, but I may end up reading about keratin growth instead. Thanks a lot...
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  4. Markw84

    Markw84 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Yes, I saw that thread that got going on coconut oil and was quite disappointed that is was so argumentative, so I didn't bother adding anything there. I do think anything we can do to better understand how keratin dries prematurely and ways to possible mitigate that has value. We certainly know lotions and oils help our own hair and nails grow better, especially in overly dry conditions. So why not explore possible ways to help keratin grow on a tortoise that is being kept in an unnatural environment? I just don't get the argument that it doesn't exist in the wild so why would you use it! Incandescent light, limited space, food available in the dry season, water to soak in every day throughout the year, better, more nutritionally balanced diet, etc, etc, all do not exist in the wild. And in the wild, what does exist has at least a 99.5% kill rate for every tortoise hatched!

    I have not heard back from @glitch4200 but realize I asked for info that would not be easy to come by. I have talked with my sister at length now about this from the epigenetics side. She is intrigued, but the end result of our debates was it seems not to be an epigenetic issue as we would expect a more universal response over the tortoise once the gene "directions" have been modified. Also would expect it to not so easily be reversed once started as we see in pyramided tortoise in a new monsoon type environment - if it was gene direction modification. As yes, you can see adult tortoises that were smooth start to pyramid later in life if kept too dry. They are the ones you sometimes see that have more of a plateau look to the scutes as opposed to a pyramid.

    I have read and studied the article Glitch references. I do not come away with the conversion of ß-keratin from α-keratin. The article goes back and forth with aquatic turtles and tortoises as they are very different in the way they lay down and form keratin. I think there was some confusion there. Also, it became quite apparent, that the researchers knew very little about pyramiding and actual scute formation at a macro level. They apparently are quite versed in the microscopic and molecular formation of keratin, but the way scutes grow left them with some gross misstatements. But very interesting and learned some nice things there I can carry forward.

    I hope this discussion continues.
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  5. KevinGG

    KevinGG Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Yes, everyone, myself included, was more interested in being correct than actually learning. Turned into an "i think" conversation based on emotion.

    Interesting. I hadn't heard of the adults pyramiding. Can you speak more on the "universal response" your sister would have expected to see?

    I fear the problem with these conversations always comes down to hypothesis as the studies are rarely adequate. I'm going to do some more research though, so I can at least hypothesize intelligently on this.
  6. Markw84

    Markw84 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Her observation was that if it was a genetic modification, she would expect to see it start effecting keratin growth all over the tortoise. We do not see it effecting plastral growth, and it also seems most pronounced on the vertebrals, less so on the costals and often negligible on the marginals. That would indicate environmental conditions more than genetic modification.
  7. glitch4200

    glitch4200 Active Member

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    I apologize for taking so long but i had to finish my classes for my degree this summer, so i could be eligible my masters degree classes for this fall.
    So where to start...

    I have compiled a list of research articles in PDF form on google drive. Here is the link to the folder:
    https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2A58OHkVjjodV90RTVsZHd2QkE?usp=sharing
    *Disclaimer: I did not produce these research articles, and i am really not authorized to share these to the public without proper their permission. Since i have been unable to obtain permission. The authors listed in the articles are to be understood as the owners of the research. I am merely making theoretical connections between data to further enhance the knowledge of tortoises for my own research, and not for monetary gain.*
    You will see 7 things in there.
    1. Immunocytochemistry suggests that the Prevelence of a Sub-Type of Beta-Proteins Determins the Hardness in the Epidermis of the Hard-Shelled Turtle. PDF

    a. I would like this article to show evidence for my idea and understanding of ratios in the expression of alpha and beta keratin.
    b. Yes, turtles are different then tortoises, but the hard shelled turtle shells microbiology behaves very similar to a tortoises shell microbiology.
    c. Terms: Core Box, beta and alpha protein expressions, how soft shelled turtle lacks a particular beta protein expression that is expressed much higher in hard shelled.

    2. Hard cornification in reptilian epidermis in comparison to cornification in mammalian epidermis.pdf
    a. In abstract, it says "stucture of reptilian hard beta keratin, their nucleotide and amino acid sequence, and organization of their genes are presented. Their mRNA are expressed in the beta-cells. The central part of beta keratins (region has been previously termed 'core-box')".
    Pg. 963 of the article shows you a drawing of reptiles scales and the different layers in the differentiating epidermis. (See item 7 in folder) Chelonians/Crocodillian: Core box.
    Pg. 971 A close up chelonian/crocodillan scute. This illustration shows 4 layers of differentiation. Basal layer supplies blood and nutrients into the suprabasal layer (alpha keratin) then that begins to differentiate into beta filliments (light green layer) which turn into compact beta keratin proteins (Top dark green layer). The bounded beta keratin hosts the core box as represented in the illustration. Beta strand core box. Which is where mRNA is expressed.

    3. Molecular Charactization of Alpha Kertain in Comparision to Associated Beta- Proteins in Soft Shelled and Hard shelled turtles during the Process of Epidermal Differentiation.pdf
    a. This i would hope could show evidence for beta and alpha ratios, alpha/beta protein expression,
    b. Yes i understand its turles and not tortoises but i am aiming validate my ideas of the important protein ratios and expression their effect and hardness and viability of why expression is important in our tortoises. A soft shell has a lack of expression in certain bands of beta proteins. Unlike a tortoise, who we know has expressional beta kertain since the shell is hard. Now the connection to pyramiding is right here. Ratio expression of these proteins are trigged by expression in the core box of the beta keratin. Now we can logically come to an idea of what cues could trigger this expression. Like the ENVIRONMENT & DIET (relative humidity, temp range, microclimate moisture, artificial lighting schemes, diet, micronutrient absorption etc).

    4.Differentiation of the epidermis of scutes in embryos and juviniles of the tortoise Testudo Hermanni with emphasis on beta-keratinization.

    a. This article does a great job at probing the embyro stages of beta keratinization and juvenile stages of the well known Testudo hermanni. It does a good job at explaining how our tortoises form hard shells and are able to survive in the hostile environment.

    5. Shows a close up illustration of beta keratin cells proliferating and how ridges are formed. Yes, beta keratin does proliferate from the edges or hinge regions, but it also spaces out across available alpha keratin, which serves as a framework for it to adhear to.

    item 6 in the folder.
    a. A picture of a 75 incandencent bulb spectral power... Notice anything very very depressing? The spectral emission of almost ALL basking artfiicial bulbs are very highly emitted in the ranges that most effect h2o. Most of their spectral power are in the high infrared ranges. This is a problem, because it offers little visible spectrum vs infrared spectrum. Very skewed. And that vibtrational eneregy is absent in a indoor housed basking bulb because it is unfiltered. Remember the explaination of why water filtration was important? because their is a lack of water filtration in indoor habitats. This means the spectral emissions that are high in the h2o brand will interact very intensel with h20 and seek that energy. Water is drawn from the blood, alpha keratin framework (which effects protein folding)

    You mentioned it is different from gas and liquid. So if you get super heated hot spots on the shell because of the spectral emissions of these unfiltered basking lamps (like shown in my thermal imaging) those emissions are interacting with water in the blood, and the hydrogen in the alpha keratin framework.. While actively evaporating environemntal humidity... (You can easily test this by placing a basking bulb above wet substrate, and record the time it takes to dry and the amount of water evaporated) My experiments put it at about 2 cups of water under the bulb a day easily. Water is visibly evaporated in enviornments that employ artificial basking lamps. So now we evidence for thermal load on the shell that is stressing the shells alpha and beta keratin framework

    My thought is that anything that cues stress to the beta keratin core box and its mRNA expression like abnormal heat patterns. *Artificial lighting thermal imaging vs. Sunlight thermal imaging (Tortoise Trust, Andy Highfield : Dangers of artificial lighting) This abnormal heating pattern that is not seen in the wild, is promoting an abnormal proliferation of alpha/beta keratin ratio due to abnormal cues to beta core box, which is directly due to the exposure of poor lighting schemes that are promoting poor thermal loads to the keratin frameworks. If you look at the andy highfield article you can see clear difference in why the thermal load matters, and why the type of infrared emitted in the bulbs matters.
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  8. Markw84

    Markw84 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Thanks, @glitch4200 I do have access to these articles as well as I do a fair bit of research, but I am grateful for the references here. The titles alone would have given me what to look for. You have gone above and beyond!
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  9. glitch4200

    glitch4200 Active Member

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    The idea of this rant is my theory of pyramiding.

    This is a theory that I have synthesized based on my research into the research regarding different aspects of the microbiology of the tortoise scute structures. And my observed experiences on public forums seeing other people's pyramiding tortoises and their set ups, diet etc.

    Their are two types of pyramiding that I have observed.

    Type One Pyramiding: encompasses pyramiding tortoises that have been neglected vital hest, UV, and absorbed micronutrients, d3 synthesis and appropriate diet that leads specifically to weak bone that is pliable with varying levels of softness. This weak bone could lead to a unstable plateform for scutes and the pressure of scute proliferation can bow and deform the bone. Or the bone grows deformed leading to deformed scute structure. (depends on the stage this occurs: baby, juvenile, adult).

    Type Two Pyramiding: encompasses pyramiding tortoises that have adequate diet, uV and heat exposure, micronutrient intake, and internal water but are still pyramiding.

    This is because the external environment is triggering an external response to extreme environmental cues. Like unfiltered infrared emissions like that 75 watt bulb I showed. Or very low relative humidity in habitat. Low soil moisture.It's recorded in multiple places that a common artificial basking bulb can zap about 50 percent relative humidity directly under a bulb in about an hour.

    During a baby and juvenile stages, their is a higher level of alpha keratin to beta keratin. This allow for expansion of the tortoise as it grows and if their is exposure to external stressors like unfiltered infrared emissions (which create very abnormal thermal patterns on the shell as a tortoise warms up in set ups using artificial basking bulbs) will create abnormal proliferation patterns. We see this in young tortoises on facebook for Example that are less then two and have extensive pyramiding but are feeding the right foods. But look at their habitats they all have one thing in common. Poor lighting schemes promoting unhealthy dehydrated growth from poor thermal heat patterns along the shell + very dry habitats + little soaks + little spray downs. It's common knowledge on here that good moisture internally and externally makes a smooth tortoise. @Tom showed that with his experiment.

    So the type two pyramiding tortoises are mainly focused on external factors promoting the pyramiding. And the Type one pyramiding tortoises are focused on internal deficiencies like micronutrient imbalance, improper diet + lack of UV exposure which leads to weak bone structure which ultimately impacts scute structures.

    The thing is a tortoise can pyramid because of both types and their factors listed above. This is where the complexity occurs. Most people point diet. Others point hydration. And some point to all of the above. And most of the time it is a combination of type one and type two factors.

    But first we need to clarify there is a major difference between type one and type two. You can't lump all Pyramiding tortoises into the same category because it lacks explaining certain types of pyramiding that are clearly being observed.
  10. glitch4200

    glitch4200 Active Member

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    Interesting.. I would argue that I have seen a shift in proliferation across the entire shell as a result of the thermal load of unfiltered artificial emissions emitted from the bulbs in high powers.. And I have observed coconut oil foster a alpha keratin proliferation and since I stopped for the last few months, I have noticed a rapid proliferation of beta keratin which has resulted in abnormal banding along the once vastly grown alpha keratin.. Pictured here.
    1503454109857.jpg
    1503454128673.jpg
    1503454147572.jpg

    This banding can be seen kinda like peak and valley along the hinge regions. Notice how in some. Spots it is much more raised.. That is a result of hot spots.. Spots that occur from the heating of the tortoise under these crap lamps. This is showing me direct evidence as to why I feel these hot spots mold proliferation rations of the alpha/bets proteins. You can visibly see these raised spots and when I line up her shell and the thermal images I have of her heating up. The hot spots in the thermal image almost perfectly overlap with the raised spots shown in these pictures in the hinge regions of the scutes. This abnormal reaction is completely absent in wild heated tortoises under the water filtered sun. Completely absent. This I feel is a root cause of pyramiding of tortoises in indoor habitats. Exposure to these unfiltered emissions and the heating patterns that occur on the shell. Alpha keratin heats up faster then beta keratin. So the hinge regions are prime for hot spots. Since they are most exposed. This environment stressing cue activates the mRNA expression in the core box of the beta keratin, to protect the alpha keratin from water evaporation which is vital for its survival. So as shown in the pictures the spots of the most stressed hot spots are built up first which resulted in more beta keratin, which is observable in the peaks of the scutes hinges region of my tortoise.

    To further support. Pyramiding is seen in the top scutes more often because of the direct impact artificial lighting has on those scutes in relation to all the others who are not in direct path of these emissions. And shown in research these proliferations occur in cycles based if tort hibernate or not. And eCh cycle can be impacted differently if environmental stressors are present. Which would break up the need to have it effect the whole tort once modification has occurs..
  11. glitch4200

    glitch4200 Active Member

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    It does really come down to the ability to synthesize a grounded hypothesis, in the science we have available to ground it in. That is what I am doing. I am grounding my hypothesis into many different areas of study. By using different researched ideas and merging them together to create a well constructed and grounded hypothesis about an idea. My idea was coconut oil at first. But after creating this coconut oil hypothesis. I have also tip toed on synthesizing a hypothesis for the foundations of pyramiding. I also have dipped my toes in the fields of microbiology, chemistry and other experimental fields of research: like the field experimental dermatology in zoology journals.

    People seem to forget that researching a complex hypothesis between parts of something, requires good data that is repeated with similar results found, for it to be accepted by others. They who value the objective paradigm of science in our current framework value good data. The problem lies in finding a hypothesis good enough and we'll grounded enough to go after those data sets..

    You can not viably test a hypothesis without parameters of variables that inquire what you are specifically looking for.. And you are not going to waste your time looking for and researching parameters of variables that are not well grounded in supported fields of science. It makes if harder for someone to discredit pillars of a synthesis that are grounded in other fields then if you pulled your resesrch from a single field of study. Because to discredit these you need to discredit the resesrch I am pulling from.. Which people are free to do... But good luck replicating and finding faults in the very expensive, complex resesrch done by these researchers.

    A resesrch article is just that.. A piece of data that is collected by researcher(s) from an intelligently thought out set of inquiries about the why and how of something..

    One of my inquiries is how do I stop artificial infrared emissions from creating the abnormal thermal loads on the keratin frameworks of the shell?
    Answer: water filter the emissions from artificial baking lamps. (this has been my current project)

    My buddy and I have come very close to a working prototype to effectively water filter the infrared emissions that are emitted from basking bulbs. We have created a water filter designed from a. Super expensive medical lamp that is specifically designed to water filter infrared to rehydrate and repair deep tissue tears and cellular healing promotion.

    Coconut oil was never meant to be a solution to a problem. I stumbled upon its proposed benefits because of curiosity into shell dryness and indoor lighting schemes that stemmed because of a thread I read on here from Dr. Frances Baines on unfiltered infrared and what looked to be a plethora of super dry dehydrated tortoises. . I connected the dots of unfiltered infrared and shell dryness. Little did I know I would stumble upon such a wealth of knowledge about our beloved tortoises. I took a risk.. And by taking that risk I told myself I would be the absolute most logical and safe I could be to make sure my torts were happy and healthy.

    The solution is water filtering infrared specifically along the bands of h2o interaction.. Coconut oil has possible benefits outside of indoor habitats like antimicrobial ability, but if we can get rid of unfiltered infrared that is emitted from these bulbs by effectively filtering them with water to create and mimic what they get in the wild outdoors, we wouldn't need to use the oil indoors to help counteract these harmful emissions.
  12. Markw84

    Markw84 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Glitch - Don't have time to comment all I would like on this now. I disagree with your two types of pyramiding. I will reply to that later. But, I would love to see a comparison of infrared images of a tortoise basking under incandescent vs. basking in natural sunlight. Also would be interested in one heated by a CHE or radiant heat panel. I think a lot of the concern about H2O filtered IR is most simply concern that should be directed to Near-IR. If you could have access to those images I would show you what I mean, or show you I am wrong.
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  13. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    @glitch4200

    What do you think would happen if I Only coconuted the same half of a tortoise and subjected it to dry heat?
  14. SULCY

    SULCY Active Member

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  15. Kevinrrussell

    Kevinrrussell Active Member

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    I use the oil once or twice as week my Red Foot stan.lee doesn't care. I adopted her from a family who rescued her from a women. She has pyrmiding from lack of humidity early on. The coconut oil allows moisture to hold water in..I 'll see in the next few years. I love the shiny look
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  16. KBeam

    KBeam Member

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  17. Jay Bagley

    Jay Bagley Well-Known Member

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    First pic raised in open table for 2 and a half years with no coconut oil(no soaks or misting as well. Second picture roughly five months later using coconut oil( Nature's Zone shell saver) in same open top enclosure heated by to mercury vapor bulbs. It seems to help, at least a little. 20171029_200953.jpg 20180307_170604.jpg
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  18. Kevinrrussell

    Kevinrrussell Active Member

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    Looks great.. I use coconut oil my self for everything. My Red Footed Tortoise when young was hit..vet was hoping accidents but to me looks like a screw drive or a pick...the wounds on shell are way healed ..the family I got her from.. thought it was lack of moisture but my and vet I see the marks. So the family in my eyes are heros.. for saving her for me. The coconut seems to allow even growth. I use it between 2 and 3 days.. my outside enclosure is for weekends only ..I bring her in..the food I leave her attracts ants.. so food just the plants.. is offered. 20184271112.jpeg
  19. tinytortoise

    tinytortoise Member

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    Thanks @glitch4200 for all your work! 3 days later and I've read this entire post. I look forward to further info on how we might filter our Infrared Bulbs!

    I'll likely use coconut, albeit sparingly, and afterwards cleanly; when the need arises (dry situations).
  20. Cathie G

    Cathie G Active Member

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    this is just my opinion. After a nice soak something to seal the moisture in is nice and good for every One but if it's done heavily...thats iffy. Another really light oil is extra virgin olive oil.I've been using a shell conditioner from a pet shop. It works but I would rather do an oil that is always new and clean and always available.
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