Is using coconut oil worth using ?

[glitch4200]

Well then. For the sake of expediency, I'll respond to just a few points and then ever so briefly. First, making a banal assertion like, "they are solar powered" is not the same as nor a replacement for evidence. What point are trying to make? What observation and of which species informs your opinion? I have only eight species and basking behavior is not consistent nor universal, nor is it adequately described by 'solar powered'.

Vast examples of poor husbandry on Facebook is not evidence for the need for coconut oil; it's evidence for the need for better husbandry. It's still irrelevant to the point.

Are your Russians adults? I ask because it appears their lack of pyramiding is being presented as evidence of efficacy. Do you happen to know if it is possible to generate pyramiding in an adult? I've never seen that.

UVA vision in tortoises is not being questioned. Your assertion that vision includes IR, however, is. Repeating and restating the former is of no utility in supporting the latter.

I like your hypothetical lighting set up. Have you tried it? Does it remove the need for regular oiling? If you're not raising hatchlings/juveniles under those conditions, how do you know?

I have difficulty spending much time following your threads as I find them high on volume and low on clarity, but I have noticed some commonality in your posts, aside from verbosity:

- Poor conditions on Facebook informs the need for oiling.
- charts and graphs of any correlated subjects are entered into evidence (who is arguing for the use of spot lights?)
- sweeping generalities are ignored (i.e. Adult Russians are assumed as representational.)
- your own husbandry is ignored. This is not intended to be mean spirited, but dude, that setup needs work.

Upon review, I guess that wasn't particularly brief. As to the OP and the question of is coconut oil necessary, I'd say the answer is that the need has not yet been established.

My notion of being solar powered, stems around the idea of being completely evolved around the full spectrum emitted by the sun. Regardless of species around the world they all get the same spectrum of water filtered emissions from that sun at varying levels during the day. That is universal. An absolute in this equation.

Indoors strictly, they must live in a habitat that is run solely by artifical lamps. As we do not have the sun indoors, obviously. Thus a big variable in their health lies in this variable of getting the proper light to heat ratio, like outdoors (species specific). The lamps we provide them with (or lack their of) is the only source of the suns spectrum that they would normally receive outside. Wouldn't the most natural habitat be one that stimulates the full spectrum of the outside sun?! I would think so.

I do only have minimal experience in observation of different species, as I only have 2x Russian tortoises. My sample size is not a representation of the population. Nor is it statically representative to drawn correlation by normal standards. But it is what I have to go off. And it does provide me some anecdotal information, that does seem to correlate with others observations and of others research. So I base my best answers off of these.

I never stated vast evidence of poor husbandry on Facebook warranted the need to use coconut oil.. But many of these tortoises are super dry and flaking from the poor husbandry they are in. I always push for better husbandry first.. Always. Then when they ask about their tortoise being dry and flaking or whatnot I always say use coconut oil. I have never stated that coconut oil is a solution to poor lighting schemas and set up. Not once.

Yes both my Russians are adults.. I got both about 4 inches long and they now are 5 inches plus and have gained healthy weight each. I never said a lack of pyramiding in my tortoises is evidence of coconut oil solely, but from my research I have the personal opinion if done in the correct scientific method way using a real statistically sound experiment, we would see strong correlation to coconut oil and decreased build up of beta keratin (scute thickening) and substantial increase in healthy Matrix of alpha keratin to grow rstio.
I have a sound hypothesis to this.
Can I induce pyramiding in a tortoise yes. I believe I personally could. Give it hot baking lights that promote localized heating of the shell past 100f to activate the heat stress proteins embedded in the bets keratin core box,which stimulate proliferation of the shell, add a poor fiber diet, with lack of proper calcium to phosphorus ratio and yes I can almost certain induce pyramiding.
In my opinion I have separated the types of pyramiding in torts. Type 1

Weak bones + severe shell mechanicall stresses will lead to severe deformation.

Whereas type 2 , strong bones (proper diet and micronutrients) will resist the mechanical stresses of the bone only leading to my atheistic pyramiding, like thus seen in nature.

But why the hell would I ever do that? All you need to do is weaken the bones and make the shell proliferate severely increasing the mechanical stresses, expose to super dry environment to unfiltered lamps and boom. Easy. (all my strict opinion)

That hypothetical lighting has not been tried yet. It is what I want to mimic though. It hits all the needed areas of the spectrum and exploits them in full power. But that comes Dr. Baines I believe. My research that I have been working on and is in prototyping stage, is an adapter that connects all these unfiltered lamps to a hub unit and effectively water filters them like the atmosphere does. My friend and I have created an invention that filters these lamps. Literally.

Dr. Baines of the UVguide.uk is going to be very nicely doing a full analysis on this invention we are creating.
Actually my deadline is mid January 2016 to have it in her hands. So very soon I will have the first up and running fully water filtered sun light in my habitat. First one ever.

My current set up is part of set up needed to run my invention, I don't know what upgrades you suggest. But, my habitat is like that for a very specific reason. Other then maybe increasing the size, I have no idea what improvements you see to be done. I have multiple hides, kept humid, I provide shade around all my basking lamps, I provide sight barriers and a microclimate, they are taken out every day to roam the tortoise room, soaked almost daily, my ambient temp is 85f, my cool zoned hides dip down to a cool 75f. And my basking temp is about 98f. And a night temp drop to about 68 to 71f.



What again do you suggest?

Yes charts and graphs are entered as evidence. That is how you build a case and do research. The point of the graph was to show why and how single basking bulb emits a basking 'spot'. Yet these bulbs are the most commonly seen in people's habitat on social media. When I am apart of 7 groups ranging over 30,000 tort keepers u se see a lot of people habitats and lighting schemes. Sooooo many people don't use flood lamps. Just regular incandescent bulbs or non flood lamp bulbs. So that graph shows why, exp to bigger species tortoises it can promote localized heating and poor tissue penetration and why you should use a multiple lamp lighting scheme.

To me you still haven't shown me why coconut oil shouldn't be used in certain instances. In my other thread I lay out what the oil does in much more detail.

 

[glitch4200]

Firstly, thank you so much for replying in such detail and taking some considerable time to respond to these posts.
It is all certainly very interesting.
Secondly,referring to your first reply to me, I am fully aware that humans cannot see the UV parts of the spectrum at all, and that tortoises can see UVA light, but your earlier post at least implied that they could see more of the UV range and Infra red, which they can't.
I look forward to your research paper with some anticipation.
Next, in the post to which this is a reply, you say the sun 'does NOT dry out the shell and skin like unfiltered basking lamps do.'
Well, they may not do it in the same way, precisely but the sun does dry out shells, skins and everything else. It dries out my skin very well given half a chance and my washing dries very quickly here. What does 'strictly water filtered' mean ? Why 'strictly' ? I am aware the Earth has an atmosphere, but it is not 'completely filled' with water vapour. Water vapour is about 1% average at sea level (though this varies) and 0.4% over the atmosphere as a whole. I understand that the filtering occurs through many kilometres of atmosphere and that lamps will have an unnatural effect, but sometimes it is the only possible option. It is not possible for most keepers to operate a system of multiple lamps at higher levels, we have to do the best we can.
How much would the sun or, indeed, ambient heat dehydrate the habitat ? I have to sometimes soak my substrate, not constantly, because it is hot here, not because of the bulb, i've not noticed any difference in the amount of times, or the amount of water I have to add to the substrate in the majority of the year when i don't use an MVB, or the short period of time when I do.
To go on to your following posts, a humid microclimate can be fairly easily maintained with a good closed chamber habitat, it isn't dried out by the end of the day, even with the lamp and CHE being used. The CHE is only used at night when my tortoise is in a nice humid hidey-hole.
However, some of the information on artificial lighting is very, erm, enlightening and I will read the thread on coconut oil with some interest to see if it does help with skin dryness without any negative effects or whether it's effects are purely cosmetic to give a nice shiny shell.
Thank you so much for this fascinating hypothesis.

Of course! I gotta defend my idea.. Even if that means going over this stuff again. The sun does dehydrate the area a tad but nothing like when you have an unfiltered basking lamp.
Eventually I will present an experiment that will show the difference between a habitat that is using unfiltered basking lamps vs water filtered basking lamps. As I am inventing an adapter that will effectively filter all these unfiltered bulbs.

The experiment is to show you how much water is taken from the unfiltered basking bulbs in a habitat vs a comparison to my soon to be patent pending water filtration adapter and how much water is taken when you apply a water filtered basking lamp in contrast.

When this adapter is finished the need to use any coconut oil in my habitat will be of no need. As the whole issue of unfiltered basking lamps will no longer apply. No unfiltered basking lamps, no extra hydration taken from either the habitat nor the tortoises shell or skin = no need of the oil. Ultimately that is my goal. To end the issues of using any unfiltered basking lamps in any indoor habitats or shelters. If we can successfully finish this and get Dr Baines support from her analysis on the invention, then unfiltered basking lamps will be a thing of the past.. And so will coconut oil and it's usage outside maybe some medical possibilities with its antimicrobial and antifungal properties.

 

[SteveW]

My notion of being solar powered, stems around the idea of being completely evolved around the full spectrum emitted by the sun. Regardless of species around the world they all get the same spectrum of water filtered emissions from that sun at varying levels during the day. That is universal. An absolute in this equation.

Indoors strictly, they must live in a habitat that is run solely by artifical lamps. As we do not have the sun indoors, obviously. Thus a big variable in their health lies in this variable of getting the proper light to heat ratio, like outdoors (species specific). The lamps we provide them with (or lack their of) is the only source of the suns spectrum that they would normally receive outside. Wouldn't the most natural habitat be one that stimulates the full spectrum of the outside sun?! I would think so.

I do only have minimal experience in observation of different species, as I only have 2x Russian tortoises. My sample size is not a representation of the population. Nor is it statically representative to drawn correlation by normal standards. But it is what I have to go off. And it does provide me some anecdotal information, that does seem to correlate with others observations and of others research. So I base my best answers off of these.

I never stated vast evidence of poor husbandry on Facebook warranted the need to use coconut oil.. But many of these tortoises are super dry and flaking from the poor husbandry they are in. I always push for better husbandry first.. Always. Then when they ask about their tortoise being dry and flaking or whatnot I always say use coconut oil. I have never stated that coconut oil is a solution to poor lighting schemas and set up. Not once.

Yes both my Russians are adults.. I got both about 4 inches long and they now are 5 inches plus and have gained healthy weight each. I never said a lack of pyramiding in my tortoises is evidence of coconut oil solely, but from my research I have the personal opinion if done in the correct scientific method way using a real statistically sound experiment, we would see strong correlation to coconut oil and decreased build up of beta keratin (scute thickening) and substantial increase in healthy Matrix of alpha keratin to grow rstio.
I have a sound hypothesis to this.
Can I induce pyramiding in a tortoise yes. I believe I personally could. Give it hot baking lights that promote localized heating of the shell past 100f to activate the heat stress proteins embedded in the bets keratin core box,which stimulate proliferation of the shell, add a poor fiber diet, with lack of proper calcium to phosphorus ratio and yes I can almost certain induce pyramiding.
In my opinion I have separated the types of pyramiding in torts. Type 1

Weak bones + severe shell mechanicall stresses will lead to severe deformation.

Whereas type 2 , strong bones (proper diet and micronutrients) will resist the mechanical stresses of the bone only leading to my atheistic pyramiding, like thus seen in nature.

But why the hell would I ever do that? All you need to do is weaken the bones and make the shell proliferate severely increasing the mechanical stresses, expose to super dry environment to unfiltered lamps and boom. Easy. (all my strict opinion)

That hypothetical lighting has not been tried yet. It is what I want to mimic though. It hits all the needed areas of the spectrum and exploits them in full power. But that comes Dr. Baines I believe. My research that I have been working on and is in prototyping stage, is an adapter that connects all these unfiltered lamps to a hub unit and effectively water filters them like the atmosphere does. My friend and I have created an invention that filters these lamps. Literally.

Dr. Baines of the UVguide.uk is going to be very nicely doing a full analysis on this invention we are creating.
Actually my deadline is mid January 2016 to have it in her hands. So very soon I will have the first up and running fully water filtered sun light in my habitat. First one ever.

My current set up is part of set up needed to run my invention, I don't know what upgrades you suggest. But, my habitat is like that for a very specific reason. Other then maybe increasing the size, I have no idea what improvements you see to be done. I have multiple hides, kept humid, I provide shade around all my basking lamps, I provide sight barriers and a microclimate, they are taken out every day to roam the tortoise room, soaked almost daily, my ambient temp is 85f, my cool zoned hides dip down to a cool 75f. And my basking temp is about 98f. And a night temp drop to about 68 to 71f.

View attachment 158889

What again do you suggest?

Yes charts and graphs are entered as evidence. That is how you build a case and do research. The point of the graph was to show why and how single basking bulb emits a basking 'spot'. Yet these bulbs are the most commonly seen in people's habitat on social media. When I am apart of 7 groups ranging over 30,000 tort keepers u se see a lot of people habitats and lighting schemes. Sooooo many people don't use flood lamps. Just regular incandescent bulbs or non flood lamp bulbs. So that graph shows why, exp to bigger species tortoises it can promote localized heating and poor tissue penetration and why you should use a multiple lamp lighting scheme.

To me you still haven't shown me why coconut oil shouldn't be used in certain instances. In my other thread I lay out what the oil does in much more detail.

So you're sticking with the assertion that a crepuscular Equatorial species experiences the same spectrum as a diurnal mid-latitude species and further asserting 'That is universal. An absolute in this equation."?

I reject that as baseless and nonsensical.

To your last point, it is bad form and an invalid argument to require me to prove a negative, and in the absence of proof assert the alternative must be true. Although, if pressed, I suppose the legions of healthy shells and their respective tortoises, all exposed to 'unfiltered IR' would constitute a kind of proof.

For Pete's sake, drop the Facebook/social media stuff, it's beginning to feel like a straw man. I'm not going to comment on them or defend them and they're not here to defend themselves.

Thanks for the reminder that charts and graphs are how you build a case and do research. I'll return the favor: only if they are relevant. I'm not arguing for spot lights. I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue for spot lights. The point stands, no graphics needed.

I'll counter your anecdotal evidence with some of my own; I understand leopard tortoises to be particularly vulnerable to shell deformities. Mine is eight months old and I got her with egg tooth still in place. During her subsequent 7 months with me, her weight has increased by 6x. She has lived exclusively indoors, with 'unfiltered' lights and zero oils on her shell. Her shell looks like this:



Why exactly do I need coconut oil or a water filtered bulb?

I didn't realize you had an economic interest in this discussion, but I suppose I appreciate you mentioning it. Within that context, your fervor makes a lot more sense.

And back to the OP and the Is-coconut-oil-necessary question; lots of healthy tortoises raised without it.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

It was 77°F outside today.
The autumn rains have not come.
The humidity is 14%.
My garden and the surrounding countryside is burned to a crisp, everything is dead or dying and light bulbs are not responsible.
The sun is.
Admittedly, in nature my tort would be hibernating, in a cool, humid hole somewhere, but how many of these bunkers will dry out as the drought continues. I very much doubt that all the hibernating wild tortoises will survive.
I prefer to keep my tortoise in a nice warm and humid, artificial environment which i can largely control, though she still goes out everyday for sun time to get her proper UVB and then back to her nice, safe, humid enclosure. She will be given her UVB bulb when we're stuck inside, finally,and already has her CHE switched on for the colder nights.
She's doing fine.

 

[mike taylor]

To answer the question the op asked ...... No you don't need to oil your tortoise . You can if you would like . But I just don't get why you need it . Or why anyone would read someone's research and take what they say to heart . Research is wrong all the time . I l like the lighting part of his research but the oil part nope no way .