Keeping different species together. Where is the line drawn.

[Anyfoot]

Hi all

I am wondering when people talk about not keeping different species together. Totally get that and I have no intention of ever mixing my reds with my hinges.
But where is the line drawn.
Can I keep different species in the same room in different enclosures.
Can I keep different species in the same environment but fenced off separately or do I have to make sure they can't even see each other.( like a low wall rather than a fence)
Can I have 2 different species sharing the same environment but walled off and share the same water as long as they can't get to each other.
If you had all your torts vetted and ok'd free from parasites and diseases, is then the only reasons for keeping them separate stress related.

I know some of them, but can some experts give me and others out there reasons for not mixing species.
Can some different species live together for example can reds live with yellows.

Thank you

Craig

 

[wellington]

They can be in same room, but should not share anything else. Also, urine, etc, should not be able to run into another's enclosure

 

[jaizei]

The line is drawn where your opinion ends and mine begins.

Whether someone is viewed as experienced and/or popular also seems to play some sort of role though I haven't figured it out entirely. I just noticed that the tortoise police are particular as to who they go after.

 

[Anyfoot]

They can be in same room, but should not share anything else. Also, urine, etc, should not be able to run into another's enclosure

Thank you. The fact that urine shouldn't contact different species practically answers every question I had.

 

[Yvonne G]

If you want to be a total purist, then you really shouldn't even step from one tortoise yard into another wearing the same shoes. I don't go that far. I just have the species separated by a wooden fence, and there is no actual contact between any of the different species. Each of my tortoise yards has its own pooper scooper.

 

[leigti]

I have always had a question along these lines also. I totally understand about species that come from different parts of the world and different environments. But what about the ones that come from very similar or same parts of the world and similar environments. for example, is it wrong to keep members of the Mediterranean species separate, can you put Greeks Russians and Herman's together? What about leopards and sulcatas? Read foots and yellowfoots? And is this view of keeping each species separate more of an American idea, how do people feel from other countries? I am just interested in different viewpoints, I know what the general feeling is here on the forum but I feel there may be other people out there with differing views that might be afraid to say anything. What experiences have people had mixing species? Good or bad?

 

[mike taylor]

The only thing I would be worried about is inbreeding reds to yellows, sulcatas to leopards . But not only that they may fight each other or even kill each other . I don't do it . But every zoo you walk into does. Most Russian torts are wild so putting them in with cb red foots is asking for trouble . Id rather be safe than sorry . I have alot of time and money into my shelled family to risk killing them .

 

[wellington]

I have always had a question along these lines also. I totally understand about species that come from different parts of the world and different environments. But what about the ones that come from very similar or same parts of the world and similar environments. for example, is it wrong to keep members of the Mediterranean species separate, can you put Greeks Russians and Herman's together? What about leopards and sulcatas? Read foots and yellowfoots? And is this view of keeping each species separate more of an American idea, how do people feel from other countries? I am just interested in different viewpoints, I know what the general feeling is here on the forum but I feel there may be other people out there with differing views that might be afraid to say anything. What experiences have people had mixing species? Good or bad?

There are for sure lots of members that don't agree. In my opinion, it's either becaue they are lazy, lack proper space for the amount of tortoises they have or they want to purposely cross breed, which I and many don't believe in. Even when from the same area, we do not provide no where near the amount of space they would have in the wild to stay separated from the other species in their areas.

 

[WithLisa]

And is this view of keeping each species separate more of an American idea, how do people feel from other countries?

In Europe, or at least German speaking countries, it's common to keep species separated. Not because of diseases, but because of stress and different body language. Also Hybridization is something that should be avoided at all costs. Even if you decide to destroy the eggs, you could miss a clutch and females can store the sperm, so that risk remains for many years after separation.

 

[Turtlepete]

This depends on what you are worried about with them co-habitating…..Species from different continents should undeniably never be housed together. What about species that are sympatric (co-habitate naturally)? There are few tortoises that do this naturally in the wild, but several turtles. In these cases, you then must consider aggression….Very many turtles and tortoises can be very aggressive, and obviously in this setting you won't be able to house them together.

If the animals are naturally sympatric/co-habitate, and have the same environmental needs, and not aggressive to one another, and won't hybridize then there is no possible reason they couldn't be housed together. But having a situation where all these criteria are met is very unlikely, to say the least.

I should mention I've kept different species of Terrapene together before. No issues, and I know this because all animals that were involved are still in my care, alive, and not missing any parts due to injury either.

 

[jaizei]

Species from different continents should undeniably never be housed together.

Why?

 

[wellington]

Why?

Why should they?

 

[Turtlepete]

Why?

Different continents means entirely different bacteria and diseases that would quite possibly be completely foreign to the animal from another region of the world. If it's foreign, they may have no natural immunity to it. Not to mention completely different environmental needs. Take a more arid tortoise and drop it in the tropical habitat needed for a red, yellow, or hinge back and it won't fare well. Hugely varying dietary needs; one species thrives on fruit and fungi, while another would never encounter this naturally and subsists entirely on species of grasses, thus having a very high-fiber diet that would be foreign to a tropical animal. Differing behavior may not be hugely important, but that would be present as well. And the list goes on….

 

[diamondbp]

This is more of a philosophical question than a technical one. There is so many ways and angles to discuss this, but the root of this question is really answered by a question "What is your philosophy?".

Some people have a totally different philosophy from others in some areas and the exact same in others. So I'm not quick to judge ones actions. I hesitate telling someone what to do with THEIR tortoises without them asking specifically for my advice. Especially when it comes to controversial topics such as this.

Someone might say they aim for a completely natural environment for their animals as adults, yet they raise them up as babies in totally unnatural (yet beneficial) methods.
Others provide optimal conditions 24/7 365 to tortoises of all ages and sizes.
Others do "survival of the fittest" type methods from the beginning.
I can understand all preferences.

When it comes to potential illnesses and parasites from mixing species I think it could initially be treated differently depending on whether you are talking "wild caught" or "captive breed". I personally advise against it in either scenario but think mixing species of captive breed tortoises to be the lesser of two evils.

Now I have raised turtles and tortoises long enough to know that although rare, if you raise them outside then there is a variety of ways for them to contract diseases and parasites without mixing species. Birds poop wherever they please. Mosquitos bite what ever they please. Small rodents transport items and their own poop where ever they will (almost).

So there is always risk involved no matter what philosophy you hold and what husbandry methods you use. I try my best to limit risk for MY tortoises as best I can at every stage of their life. I've had periods in my life where I mixed species and have had no issues. I've also witness tragedies from allowing one (unknowingly) sick turtle into a group. I currently don't mix any species other than a captive bred Ibera with some Hermanns and all seems to be going just fine.

In the end my philosophy is that someone else can do what they want with THEIR tortoises. I can't claim ownership over their tortoises just because of my personal opinion. Now if they ask for my opinion and criticism I will offer it, but I will never impose my husbandry philosophies as if I'm the one with all the answers. We are all still learning.

Gzzz that was way more than I intended to type.

 

[mike taylor]

Just think of it like this . If you are planning a trip to Mexico what are you going to do before you go . Myself I would go to my doctor and tell him I'm taking a trip over to Mexico . He will give you a shot or two maybe some meds to take with you . He may even know of a good doctor over there . Tortoise can't do this so it's up to you on how much you would like to spend on vet bills .

 

[jaizei]

Different continents means entirely different bacteria and diseases that would quite possibly be completely foreign to the animal from another region of the world. If it's foreign, they may have no natural immunity to it. Not to mention completely different environmental needs. Take a more arid tortoise and drop it in the tropical habitat needed for a red, yellow, or hinge back and it won't fare well. Hugely varying dietary needs; one species thrives on fruit and fungi, while another would never encounter this naturally and subsists entirely on species of grasses, thus having a very high-fiber diet that would be foreign to a tropical animal. Differing behavior may not be hugely important, but that would be present as well. And the list goes on….

I think the disease point is moot when you are housing an animal on an entirely different continent than the one it 'originated' from. If they are such fragile creatures then they should never be housed outside of their natural range. Thats where the 'doomsday' argument starts to fall apart, imo. If someone is truly concerned about disease, housing an exotic, 'foreign' tortoise in their backyard is both a great risk and disservice to that particular animal as well as every native species that inhabits the area around your backyard. It's easy to talk the talk. Not many walk the walk.

There is this crazy idea that captive bred tortoises can basically be housed the same. Trying to mimic the natural conditions is only/(more) important with WC animals since they have imprinted.


@leigti I'll send you some links when I get some time.

 

[Turtlepete]

I think the disease point is moot when you are housing an animal on an entirely different continent than the one it 'originated' from. If they are such fragile creatures then they should never be housed outside of their natural range. Thats where the 'doomsday' argument starts to fall apart, imo. If someone is truly concerned about disease, housing an exotic, 'foreign' tortoise in their backyard is both a great risk and disservice to that particular animal as well as every native species that inhabits the area around your backyard. It's easy to talk the talk. Not many walk the walk.

There is this crazy idea that captive bred tortoises can basically be housed the same. Trying to mimic the natural conditions is only/(more) important with WC animals since they have imprinted.


@leigti I'll send you some links when I get some time.

Fair enough. Being that almost every hobbyist is caring for an exotic (i.e., from a different continent) animal, they will be exposed to foreign diseases/bacteria/"mystery bus" either way. Good point. What about the rest though? They still have entirely different environmental and dietary needs. There is no way around that; CB or not doesn't make a difference. I would be very interested in hearing the thoughts of anyone who feels they can logically refute that.

My version of the aforementioned "walk" is separating them by a wood fence. I don't take measures much further then that, besides using different cleaning tools.

I should mention, I hope I'm not coming off to you as one of the "tortoise police". I certainly don't condemn it nearly like I've seen others do. I just thought I'd explore the reasons against housing them together, since you asked.

 

[leigti]

I appreciate this discussion. I keep my animal separate and make sure that there is not cross contamination and I am not looking for an argument to keep different types of tortoises together. but I think that sometimes more in-depth discussion on the topic needs to happen when there are some, what I consider, gray areas. such as animals that are from the same country or extremely similar environments, captive bred, etc. and I am always interested to hear what people from other countries do. I like to hear different philosophies and opinions, doesn't mean I have to agree with all of them but I would like to understand where people are coming from.

 

[leigti]

I have wondered about what my Russian tortoise could catch by living in my backyard. I thought about it more what plants to not put in her enclosure rather than the bacteria from other animals etc. But that is definitely a concern. The pen is covered with hardware cloth so except for some bird poop falling through I not sure what else could get in there or what else I can really do about it.

 

[Tom]

I am wondering when people talk about not keeping different species together. Totally get that and I have no intention of ever mixing my reds with my hinges.
But where is the line drawn.
Can I keep different species in the same room in different enclosures.
Can I keep different species in the same environment but fenced off separately or do I have to make sure they can't even see each other.( like a low wall rather than a fence)
Can I have 2 different species sharing the same environment but walled off and share the same water as long as they can't get to each other.
If you had all your torts vetted and ok'd free from parasites and diseases, is then the only reasons for keeping them separate stress related.

I know some of them, but can some experts give me and others out there reasons for not mixing species.
Can some different species live together for example can reds live with yellows.

People have many reasons why they say to not mix species. Different people have varying levels of interest or worry about these different issues. I would broadly categorize the risks as behavioral problems, disease risks and hybridization.

Here is my opinion on each:
1. Behavioral reasons: Some species are simply more boisterous and aggressive than others. Frankly russians tend to be more scrappy than Greeks. Sure you can have a passive russian or an aggressive greek, but I'm talking about generalities. Likewise sulcatas tend to be more bold than stars or aldabras. Also, little is known or studied about how tortoises communicate with each other. It seems reasonable to assume that the postural stances and the body language of one species might be different than the signals from another species elsewhere in the world. So many people assume that if one tortoise is not physically aggressively biting or ramming another tortoise that everything is fine. There are subtle intimidating cues that are given and received that most people are going to miss. Chameleon keepers know all about these visual stressors and what can happen, but tortoises keepers seem mostly unaware that any such thing exists. (Apologies, to those of you who do recognize these things. Speaking in general terms again...) Frequently we get threads and video about a tortoise helping to flip another tortoise back onto its feet, and many tortoise keepers ooh and ahh at how nice that was that he "helped" his "friend". They have no idea they are witnessing a tortoise-speed brawl.

I have been a student of animal behavior for literally decades. Animal behavior is my career and profession and has been since 1986. For these behavioral reasons alone, I recommend against mixing species.

2. Hybridization: Some folks find this interesting and novel. I find it sickening and an abomination. This should never happen. The state of the leopard tortoise and redfoot tortoise in this country is a mess because of indiscriminant breeding. The concept of intentionally letting two different species of imported reptile breed and produce offspring goes against ethics and common sense in my opinion. Many of these animals, like leopard tortoises, are banned from importation. No new ones are coming in. Ever. What we have now is all we've got. Diluting and ruining this is not a good plan. We should be breeding locale to locale and discouraging mixing different types even within a species. HermanniChris's work with his Western Hermanni serves as an example of how things ought to be done. That guy is my hero as far as tortoises are concerned.

Diluting the precious resources we have been given and creating mixed species hybrids is not a wise idea in the grand scheme of what is good for tortoises and our hobby in my view of things. For this reason alone, I say that species should not be mixed.

3. Disease potential: Let me start with a question from post number one in this thread: "If you had all your torts vetted and ok'd free from parasites and diseases, is then the only reasons for keeping them separate stress related." This is a trick question. Can't correctly answer yes OR no. There is no such thing as having your torts vetted and ok'd free from parasites and diseases. No vet on earth can look at a tortoise, do an exam and a fecal smear, and declare a tortoise free from parasites and disease. There is only one way to declare them free from all diseases and parasites. Necropsy by an experienced, qualified Doctor of Veterinary medicine to the tune of about $1000 dollars and the death of the test subject. I seriously doubt that any tortoise alive is free from any sort of parasite or pathogen. With a healthy immune system the "bad" organisms are kept in check. Introduce some stress, especially chronic stress, hamper that immune system, and a previously "healthy" tortoise will show you any number of diseases. You could spend $5000 on diagnostics for every tortoise in your herd and still miss some things. Cryptosporidia for example. It doesn't show up in the fecal. They have a test called gastric lavage they can administer. If this one comes up negative, it does not mean the tortoise is cryptosporidia free. It just means none turned up in that particular sample. There is no cure and no treatment for crypto in tortoises and it doesn't usually kill them. They just carry it around and shed it everywhere they go. There are many diseases like this. Tortoise herpes, http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/intranuclear-coccidiosis-tortoise-bubonic-plague.69913/, etc. There are lots and lots of these things out there floating around.

So your vet can't look at your tortoise and psychicly know if it has a contagious disease or not. Next we have to understand that each species has evolved over millions of years to deal with the pathogens and parasites from its own little corner of the world. They have internal mechanisms and external strategies (like eating toxic plants at certain times of the year to reduce certain parasite loads), to deal with the "bugs" that occur where they come from. They do not necessarily have the mechanism to deal with parasites and pathogens from other parts of the world that are common to other species of tortoise. The practice of mixing species has led to the death of entire collections for this reason. Does it lead to the death of every tortoise that is allowed to mix with another species? No. Not at all. Its a gamble. Its a gamble with the life of your tortoises.

As far as quarantine and risk management goes, well, we could argue that for days. I'm not advocating keeping tortoises in hermetically sealed sterilized enclosures. Its all about what risk is acceptable to each of us. Might a bird fly over head and drop worm eggs into one of my outdoor enclosures? Yep. It could happen. Could a wild lizard crawl on their food in search of insect prey to eat and leave droppings? Yes it could. However in 35 years of keeping Chelonia, I've never seen or heard of this happening. I have heard of mass die offs from diseases introduced by other tortoises though. I keep multiple species of tortoise. I walk in their large outdoor pens and I don't change shoes between enclosures. This is a risk I take every day. There are other risks too. I try to minimize those risks and I don't take risks that I find substantial, like letting two different species occupy the same space.

So where is that line? Its different for everyone and different for different species. I have all CB tortoises. No wild caught of any species. I really think they are going to quit importing russians in the near future and I think we are going to wish we were doing more breeding due to their slow reproductive rate. There are lots of WC russians available right now, but I won't take the risk of bringing them onto my ranch with my other species. I'd like to find an off site area to set them up and get them going, but I haven't figured out a way to make it work yet. So bringing in WC tortoises is a risk I won't take, even though I would really like to take advantage of the current situation. Other people go to Petco or Petsmart and take that risk frequently. Their line is somewhere different than mine.

I don't see how anyone can argue that advising people to keep their tortoise species separate and never let them come into contact with each others bodily fluids or waste products is bad advice. Is it possible to get two captive bred tortoises of different species and put them together and have them both live? Sure. It happens all the time. But it is also possible that one or both of them will contract something from the other and die. I get PMs from members in Asian countries (where the practice of mixing species is common and rampant) and they are always asking me why one or the other is sick or why one died. I have no way to verify this, but it seems pretty obvious in some cases that they died from some weird tortoises diseases that was most likely contracted from one of their cage mates.

Keeping different species in the same room is a greater risk than having species dedicated separate rooms, but I've done that. A low wall outside is better than no wall, but still a risk. Sharing water is something I would consider high risk and I wouldn't do it. I would not keep reds with yellows, although some people do. Personally, I would not mix leopards (the same species) that are from different localities. If I ever have the privilege of getting some Western Hermanni from a known location, they will never see any other hermanni from any other locality, or any other species for that matter. You will have to decide what level of risk is acceptable for you.