Keeping different species together. Where is the line drawn.

[Mavrik]

@shelley11 --

What is your reasoning, logic, and/or research on this though? I have all my tortoises in Winter HQ (aka my kitchen) currently. They can actually all see each other to varying degrees (some have better views than others), and I also assume being in the same room with the same air flow that they can smell each other as well -- and yet I have not seen any issues up to this point.

 

[FLINTUS]

Torts of different species should never be kept together as they are very territorial and can send each other very stressful which could result with a very unhappy tortoise. It's fine to keep them in the same room as long as they can't see or smell each other. Thanks for reading hope this helpsView attachment 116312

While I respect your views, that is a very simple reply compared to the stage of the development the thread was at. If you are going to make a brazen claim, try to explain it a bit more.

 

[FLINTUS]

@shelley11 --

What is your reasoning, logic, and/or research on this though? I have all my tortoises in Winter HQ (aka my kitchen) currently. They can actually all see each other to varying degrees (some have better views than others), and I also assume being in the same room with the same air flow that they can smell each other as well -- and yet I have not seen any issues up to this point.

I've had red foots and hingebacks in the same room. They can smell eachother, I'll tell you that. If one is alone, and smells other tortoises-in this case it was a hingeback smelling me putting red foots back into their enclosure-, he/she does seem to get stressed.

 

[tglazie]

As someone who once fostered a wide variety of species but who now focuses on two (a single old Southern Turkish Greek and nine Marginateds), I've gotta say, from a mere personal preference, I enjoy the simplicity of what basically amounts to one species. Don't get me wrong, I've often considered getting back into sulcatas, or perhaps acquiring a hatchling p. pardalis, but as my mind wraps around the troubles I experienced in keeping the torts separate, I ultimately decide to stay away from the multiple species projects. I suppose it's one thing if someone is going to keep just one of each species. Even then, I would argue for separation, given all the points Tom so clearly laid out.

Behavioral problems are the big one. When my Greek tortoise Graecus fights, he viciously rams anything that even resembles a tortoise, hurling his body like a battering ram. When I introduce my male marginateds to spar (as a bit of breeding conditioning early in the spring), there's a great deal of biting and shoving. I can only imagine these two fighting styles causing problems, with the marginateds ill equipped to deal with the ramming, and the Greeks equally unprepared to be fiercely bitten by the marginated.

Size differences are also a matter to consider. When my big sulcata Jerry was stomping about my property, he had little regard for where his elephantine hoof landed. I would imagine that he'd have no trouble running down Graecus or any other small tortoise unfortunate enough to cross his path. Same goes for eating. Jerry would have been more than capable of seriously injuring another tortoise grazing in the same spot. But even less dramatic size differences are ones I could see as being problematic. Graecus is a scrappy little guy, but he's still only seven inches in length. Compared to Gino, my largest male marginated who measures thirteen inches, Graecus is a little wimp to be pushed aside. How would this go at feeding time? Probably not well.

There is always the risk of disease, and though I've seen and read of countless instances of sick tortoises decimating entire colonies, I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert on disease pathology. But given the anecdotal evidence concerning the dangers, I see it, as Tom put it, as an unnecessary risk.

Look, I know not everyone can restrict their love of tortoises to one species, but I've gotta say, my life has gotten much simpler as a result. Maybe that's not for everybody, but as a person who once aspired to keeping every species on earth in some global chelonian zoo, I've gotta say, the margies are really that "one" species to which I can see devoting the rest of my life. I swear, the more I talk about it, the more I sound like some wild child settling down with a nice girl, but over the past few years, I finally feel as though I've gotten a good hand on what I want from this endeavor, and I'm more sure than I've ever been that this is right for the tortoises as well.

Another plus is that the whole hybridization thing isn't such an issue, given that the only divergent variety of marginated tortoise, as far as I know, is the little Wessinger's tort, and I don't intend on getting one of those. This was the big reason I ultimately gave up on finding a mate for Graecus, given that the entire complex of "Greek" tortoises is, in my opinion, confused beyond deciphering. I believe him to be of Southern Turkish/Lebanese origin given his physical characteristics when compared to pictures of tortoises photographed in the field, but I have no actual documentation to prove this. Same with redfoots. I mean, how many people have actually acquired their wild caught specimens from someone who can definitively place their origin? Same with leopards, hingebacks, Russians, and Hermanns. I mean, I see so much variety in Hermanns that are supposedly one large "eastern" subspecies. I know that many of the captive bred ones in the US today are hybrids, and it is truly a sad state of affairs when guys like Chris are the exception and not the rule.

But yeah, I would urge species separation, and if possible, keeping only one species. Life is just much easier that way, though I can certainly understand the point that life isn't as interesting.

T.G.

 

[Anyfoot]

I've had red foots and hingebacks in the same room. They can smell eachother, I'll tell you that. If one is alone, and smells other tortoises-in this case it was a hingeback smelling me putting red foots back into their enclosure-, he/she does seem to get stressed.

Hi Ben

So what you are saying is, you wouldn't advise keeping different species even within smelling distance. Or have I miss understood you.

Thank Craig

 

[FLINTUS]

Hi Ben

So what you are saying is, you wouldn't advise keeping different species even within smelling distance. Or have I miss understood you.

Thank Craig

Not advising anything Craig, as that's up to the individual keeper. They were fine in the same room when they had other tortoises in the same enclosure, but without other tortoise smells, they seem to want to get to the other species. So if I had one x species, and one y species, no I wouldn't keep them in the same room personally, but in groups its fine. Of course, these are just my observations and may be from 'unusual' tortoises.

 

[Randi]

My vet tech book also mentions never mixing species - "the most important thing that can be done to prevent RNS and many other equally serious diseases is never allowing contact between different species. Animals from different areas have different abilities to resist 'alien' pathogens; an organism which may be harmless to one may kill another. Do not add any new tortoise to an existing collection without a quarantine period - six months is the minimum recommended. A new tortoise may have had an RNS or bacterial, mycoplasmic or even viral disease and may now be a carrier.'.

 

[Randi]

Another thing mentioned was that different species require different environments and POTZ (preferred optimal temperature zones) and therefore becomes difficult to manage in the same space and have thriving specimens. I'd say keeping a single species would be easiest. If you wanted to expand to different species, it would be best to keep them in separate areas entirely. A room designated for each species, etc. There was an awesome thread about biosecurity. I would never mix. Just my opinion.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

As someone who once fostered a wide variety of species but who now focuses on two (a single old Southern Turkish Greek and nine Marginateds), I've gotta say, from a mere personal preference, I enjoy the simplicity of what basically amounts to one species. Don't get me wrong, I've often considered getting back into sulcatas, or perhaps acquiring a hatchling p. pardalis, but as my mind wraps around the troubles I experienced in keeping the torts separate, I ultimately decide to stay away from the multiple species projects. I suppose it's one thing if someone is going to keep just one of each species. Even then, I would argue for separation, given all the points Tom so clearly laid out.

Behavioral problems are the big one. When my Greek tortoise Graecus fights, he viciously rams anything that even resembles a tortoise, hurling his body like a battering ram. When I introduce my male marginateds to spar (as a bit of breeding conditioning early in the spring), there's a great deal of biting and shoving. I can only imagine these two fighting styles causing problems, with the marginateds ill equipped to deal with the ramming, and the Greeks equally unprepared to be fiercely bitten by the marginated.

Size differences are also a matter to consider. When my big sulcata Jerry was stomping about my property, he had little regard for where his elephantine hoof landed. I would imagine that he'd have no trouble running down Graecus or any other small tortoise unfortunate enough to cross his path. Same goes for eating. Jerry would have been more than capable of seriously injuring another tortoise grazing in the same spot. But even less dramatic size differences are ones I could see as being problematic. Graecus is a scrappy little guy, but he's still only seven inches in length. Compared to Gino, my largest male marginated who measures thirteen inches, Graecus is a little wimp to be pushed aside. How would this go at feeding time? Probably not well.

There is always the risk of disease, and though I've seen and read of countless instances of sick tortoises decimating entire colonies, I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert on disease pathology. But given the anecdotal evidence concerning the dangers, I see it, as Tom put it, as an unnecessary risk.

Look, I know not everyone can restrict their love of tortoises to one species, but I've gotta say, my life has gotten much simpler as a result. Maybe that's not for everybody, but as a person who once aspired to keeping every species on earth in some global chelonian zoo, I've gotta say, the margies are really that "one" species to which I can see devoting the rest of my life. I swear, the more I talk about it, the more I sound like some wild child settling down with a nice girl, but over the past few years, I finally feel as though I've gotten a good hand on what I want from this endeavor, and I'm more sure than I've ever been that this is right for the tortoises as well.

Another plus is that the whole hybridization thing isn't such an issue, given that the only divergent variety of marginated tortoise, as far as I know, is the little Wessinger's tort, and I don't intend on getting one of those. This was the big reason I ultimately gave up on finding a mate for Graecus, given that the entire complex of "Greek" tortoises is, in my opinion, confused beyond deciphering. I believe him to be of Southern Turkish/Lebanese origin given his physical characteristics when compared to pictures of tortoises photographed in the field, but I have no actual documentation to prove this. Same with redfoots. I mean, how many people have actually acquired their wild caught specimens from someone who can definitively place their origin? Same with leopards, hingebacks, Russians, and Hermanns. I mean, I see so much variety in Hermanns that are supposedly one large "eastern" subspecies. I know that many of the captive bred ones in the US today are hybrids, and it is truly a sad state of affairs when guys like Chris are the exception and not the rule.

But yeah, I would urge species separation, and if possible, keeping only one species. Life is just much easier that way, though I can certainly understand the point that life isn't as interesting.

T.G.

Well said. And on a small scale, I can relate. I went from dealing with multiple species down to just 1. Granted it was only 2 years of having multiples..but still, it did it get easier dropping to just 1 species.

 

[leigti]

Well said. And on a small scale, I can relate. I went from dealing with multiple species down to just 1. Granted it was only 2 years of having multiples..but still, it did it get easier dropping to just 1 species.

Species separation is easy enough. But even getting down to one species doesn't necessarily mean you won't have to separate anyway. especially with species like Russians, either have to have a big group or a bunch of separate little pens, or a combination of both. I decided that if I was going to have to have separate enclosures anyway might as will be a different species in each one.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Species separation is easy enough. But even getting down to one species doesn't necessarily mean you won't have to separate anyway. especially with species like Russians, either have to have a big group or a bunch of separate little pens, or a combination of both. I decided that if I was going to have to have separate enclosures anyway might as will be a different species in each one.

Yep, it's true. I've been through that, too.

I'm now down to just 1 single tortoise and I like it. So much easier, especially considering my location. It's not for everyone, like the member I previously posted shared..
And should I ever get back into more torts...I'll likely stick to the single species.

 

[leigti]

Yep, it's true. I've been through that, too.

I'm now down to just 1 single tortoise and I like it. So much easier, especially considering my location. It's not for everyone, like the member I previously posted shared..
And should I ever get back into more torts...I'll likely stick to the single species.

It is much easier with small species. One Russian and one box turtle, I am thinking about getting another tortoise but I don't know what kind. like I said I figure I might as will get another species since I won't be able to house them together no matter what I get. I don't even feel very comfortable trying to add a female in with either one of my other females.

 

[JeffR]

Tom thanks for the information
In a related question
When switching animals from one outdoor enclosure to another is there any suggestions on how long to rest the enclosure or leave it fallow.

In other words how long can the typical toxic parasites capable of living without a host? Any suggested sterilization or cleaning measures when swapping out species in an outdoor enclosures ?

 

[jsheffield]

Hi all

I am wondering when people talk about not keeping different species together. Totally get that and I have no intention of ever mixing my reds with my hinges.
But where is the line drawn.
Can I keep different species in the same room in different enclosures.
Can I keep different species in the same environment but fenced off separately or do I have to make sure they can't even see each other.( like a low wall rather than a fence)
Can I have 2 different species sharing the same environment but walled off and share the same water as long as they can't get to each other.
If you had all your torts vetted and ok'd free from parasites and diseases, is then the only reasons for keeping them separate stress related.

I know some of them, but can some experts give me and others out there reasons for not mixing species.
Can some different species live together for example can reds live with yellows.

Thank you

Craig

Same room, different enclosures is where I draw the line... anything else and you run the risks of sharing parasites/diseases between species and running into difficulties because of different diets and environmental needs.

Jamie

 

[Paschendale52]

I'm curious how people like @Markw84 feel about this in terms of water turtles. I feel like its much more common to keep multiple species of water turtle, especially those who co-habitate in natural bodies of water, together. This has been a very interesting thread.

 

[Tom]

Tom thanks for the information
In a related question
When switching animals from one outdoor enclosure to another is there any suggestions on how long to rest the enclosure or leave it fallow.

In other words how long can the typical toxic parasites capable of living without a host? Any suggested sterilization or cleaning measures when swapping out species in an outdoor enclosures ?

I do not have a fact based answer for this question. I have heard of some tortoise pathogens able to survive under ideal conditions with no host for 6-9 months. Outdoors in full sun, heavy rain, summer heat and winter cold, does not seem ideal to me, so probably less for most things, but I cannot say there isn't something that can survive longer that I don't know about. In practice, I've gone 12+ months before doing this, and I know of no problems from it yet.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I miss Craig very much.
I hope he's doing well

 

[Yvonne G]

I miss Craig very much.
I hope he's doing well

Me too. I LOVED looking at the beautiful indoor area he made for his RF tortoises. I'm gonna' send him an email and see if we can get him to come back and give us an update.

 

[enchilada]

when i visited the Turtle Conservancy at Ojai, i noticed they mixed a huge group of Aldabras and Galapagos together, from sub adults to adults. I'm sure Eric knows what he is doing XD

 

[Tom]

when i visited the Turtle Conservancy at Ojai, i noticed they mixed a huge group of Aldabras and Galapagos together, from sub adults to adults. I'm sure Eric knows what he is doing XD

You'd be very wrong with that assumption. He's lost entire species to disease, and near every baby he produces is pyramided from their self-proclaimed "natural" methods. I know. I have some of them.