@Tom I hope you're right about Russian tortoises not being imported for much longer. and if things were a little different for me I would also love to start up a breeding colony of them. I think about it whenever I see female Russians advertised. I think about my female Russian, and my coworkers female Russian and how great it would be to breed them. I think the behavioral aspects of this issue are the ones that I have thought the least about, how stupid of me.
Keeping different species together. Where is the line drawn.
- Thread starter Anyfoot
- Start date
You seem to have drawn a conclusion that animals from the same country are okay to mix. I would not agree. I would not keep a Florida box turtle with a CA desert tortoise any more than I would keep a leopard with a sulcata, or a Burmese Star with a Burmese Mountain Tortoise. For that matter I wouldn't keep a South African leopard with a leopard from Kenya, or a leopard of unknown or mixed origins. My reasons are all of the above from my previous long winded post.
I haven't made a conclusion that any should go together. and I am aware that one country can contain many different types of environments. it was just the easiest way I could try to ask a question. I agree with your views on crossbreeding. i'm not quite sure what I think about things like what they call "hypo" or breeding for albinoism I guess that is a different thread.
A different thread indeed. I don't have a problem with selectively breeding the same species and trying to isolate or encourage certain color or pattern traits. Its not really my cup of tea, but I see no harm in it.
Yeah I guess I'm thinking specifically of albinoism, because of the issues that come with it.
Well woke up this morning and read this entire thread and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Quite a few different opinions out there, and I take on board everything that everyone says, then make my mind up what to do with everything in life.
Tom your posts was as usual, an excellent approach to the debate, and well explained. I here what you are saying. I've been stalking you for a bit now on this forum.
Right in a bit deeper.
I want to know if redfoots and yellowfoots will cross breed creating hybrids. I don't want any hybrids at all, not my game and never will be. Not saying I don't agree with people doing it but its not for me. Also will cherryheads cross with northern redfoots if so is his frowned on. This is the grey area for my thoughts. Are there regions in the wild where any combination of cherryheads, northern or yellowfoots cohabit-ate together. Is there any evidence of reds and yellow hybrids.
I have redfoots and hinges.I have the opportunity over the next 12 months or so to take on a couple of yellows and some reds including 1 wc female cherry that is quite a specimen and looks amazing. To do this I need to get serious and create an indoor area that imitates the natural habitat. I have the land, time and some finance available to do so.
All breeds I am talking about like it humid and the temp ranges can be accommodated in 1 large enclosed area to suit them all. Hinges require more water area to swim, eat more protein and require the lower end of the redfoots temps.
Below is a basic idea of what i am thinking. Too early to go into major detail of what is mulling around in my head. Sizes are not important at this point, just the principle. The cloud line represents a wall or fence.
Thoughts please.
Thank you to everyone.
Craig
Quite a few different opinions out there, and I take on board everything that everyone says, then make my mind up what to do with everything in life.
Tom your posts was as usual, an excellent approach to the debate, and well explained. I here what you are saying. I've been stalking you for a bit now on this forum.
Right in a bit deeper.
I want to know if redfoots and yellowfoots will cross breed creating hybrids. I don't want any hybrids at all, not my game and never will be. Not saying I don't agree with people doing it but its not for me. Also will cherryheads cross with northern redfoots if so is his frowned on. This is the grey area for my thoughts. Are there regions in the wild where any combination of cherryheads, northern or yellowfoots cohabit-ate together. Is there any evidence of reds and yellow hybrids.
I have redfoots and hinges.I have the opportunity over the next 12 months or so to take on a couple of yellows and some reds including 1 wc female cherry that is quite a specimen and looks amazing. To do this I need to get serious and create an indoor area that imitates the natural habitat. I have the land, time and some finance available to do so.
All breeds I am talking about like it humid and the temp ranges can be accommodated in 1 large enclosed area to suit them all. Hinges require more water area to swim, eat more protein and require the lower end of the redfoots temps.
Below is a basic idea of what i am thinking. Too early to go into major detail of what is mulling around in my head. Sizes are not important at this point, just the principle. The cloud line represents a wall or fence.
Thoughts please.
Thank you to everyone.
Craig
Yes, carbonaria and denticulata have almost certainly cross-bred in the wild, but there are no genetic tests that have been done to confirm this, just sightings.Well woke up this morning and read this entire thread and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Quite a few different opinions out there, and I take on board everything that everyone says, then make my mind up what to do with everything in life.
Tom your posts was as usual, an excellent approach to the debate, and well explained. I here what you are saying. I've been stalking you for a bit now on this forum.
Right in a bit deeper.
I want to know if redfoots and yellowfoots will cross breed creating hybrids. I don't want any hybrids at all, not my game and never will be. Not saying I don't agree with people doing it but its not for me. Also will cherryheads cross with northern redfoots if so is his frowned on. This is the grey area for my thoughts. Are there regions in the wild where any combination of cherryheads, northern or yellowfoots cohabit-ate together. Is there any evidence of reds and yellow hybrids.
I have redfoots and hinges.I have the opportunity over the next 12 months or so to take on a couple of yellows and some reds including 1 wc female cherry that is quite a specimen and looks amazing. To do this I need to get serious and create an indoor area that imitates the natural habitat. I have the land, time and some finance available to do so.
All breeds I am talking about like it humid and the temp ranges can be accommodated in 1 large enclosed area to suit them all. Hinges require more water area to swim, eat more protein and require the lower end of the redfoots temps.
Below is a basic idea of what i am thinking. Too early to go into major detail of what is mulling around in my head. Sizes are not important at this point, just the principle. The cloud line represents a wall or fence.
Thoughts please.
Thank you to everyone.
Craig
View attachment 116154
Tom I agree with nearly all of your v.expansive input, but there are a few things that I want to pick up on.
Ah hello mate.
So if they have bred in the wild then they live together and its a natural thing for them to interbreed.
Just a thought and its probably a stupid one but how do we know that some torts are not hybrids and in the modern day we accept them as its own species. For example how do we know that the northern carbonaria is not an hybrid of the denticulata and the cherryhead carbonaria.
Genetic domination is the main reason, someone like @tortadise or @Neal would be better to answer this really. The whole species classification is messed up, that is one of the problems here and why people like hermannichris as above, are breeding locality specifically. Debatedly, I would say that it would be better for conservation to breed, for instance, a Ghana erosa and homeana from one region of the country, than a erosa from Ghana, and one from Benin in my case, at least from a locality point of view. The genetic differences between species such as these are not clearly understood, we base our classifications on a few telltale signs, or at least we believe that we do. It's not really natural, Tom is right in that behavior is different between the species that we have more knowledge of, and for instance, carbonaria and denticulata are definitely distinct species, but within that, there should probably be 5-7 subspecies of carbonaria, and 2-3 of denticulata, and maybe even a new species within carbonaria. Therefore, while cross-breeding does happen, it is not as common as breeding with the own species. Yellows and reds do come from different ranges, but they overlap, there are very few tortoises-if any- that have a range the same as another species, or totally within the range of another species.
Oh, and just to confuse you even more, kinixys and chelonoidis come from a common ancestor before the plates split between Africa and S.America. In fact, genetically, carbonaria are more similar to erosa than they are to denticulata I think I'm right in saying.
Oh, and how are the homeana getting on?
That has confirmed some more questions I had mulling around in my mind, "common ancestor" this would explain there very similar needs. Excellent, thank you.
The Homeana are going well. Both males were very shy at first but today i've noticed a definite change in there activity, although they have never really stopped mating. lol Are the kinixys a more nocturnal species than other tort species. These seem to be very active at night. The previous owner used to feed them late on around tea time!
Thanks
Well this topic can very very detailed. Busy little bee I have been lately with regard to Kinixys homeana/erosa. Currently working on a reinforcement population for both in west Africa. After lots of genetic data and sampling of specimens kept. It was overruled by both the organization I started and the west African organization that a known locale specific population be worked with as the founder group instead of imported group we currently posses for the long term reintroduction. So this can be easily mirrored into any species being worked with.
@FLINTUS I must say it's very uncommon to see dendiculata and carbonaria to possess similar retreats in the wild and or mating. Yes it has been observed but most of those sitings were rare. In vargus and ramirezs noted literature of cladding the phylogeographic differences of carbonaria they did sample quite a few dendiculata. Both c.d and c.c were very absent in overlapping ranges of ecosystems. However they were noted to be found within tolerable distances of possible "overlapping" migrations. Not much has been done I terms of radio tracking two species against the range or territory both inhabit. But countries like north western Brazil into north east Peru, south west Columbia do all represent a population of both species.mbut when looked at in a microscopic level on the ground these areas withhold a vast Eco diversity. Carbonaria more grassland and open terrain, versus dendiculata more favoring of the extreme density of canopy forests and much higher humid environments. So perhaps each species "could" venture into one another's territory and possibly mate. But I would think it's improbable as each species is geared towards a different survival approach. Food differs, light exposures, moisture, edible fauna or carrion etc... Now human impact may play a large roll on forced integrades within these two species.
Upon keeping these two species together. Yes it is possible. In captivity it's much easier than in the wild. Dendiculata can be "molded" to be suitable minimum standards that's are less forgiving than the wild. Same for carbonaria. However, the way we keep our species is as wild as possible. Dendiculata favor much more wet and dark habitat and a lot more rooted vegetables and broad leaf flora with a very high protein of carrion, meats, eggs, turtle pellets. Where *** the carbonaria get proteins, meats, eggs, on a far more limited basis and are never fed large rooted flora like taro, carrots, ginger root, hicima, sweet potatoe etc.. That are most favored by dendiculata. Anther note is that dendiculata are far more solitary than carbonaria. Yes they can survive together. But are much less forgiving than carbonaria. Rarely if ever have we seen any male and or female aggression in the 35 plus specimens of carbonaria kept here(from hatchling, to yearling to adults). Denediculata can represent an extreme aggressive nature. Especially when kept within more natural thresholds of high humidity and deep burrows heavily planted enclosures. Males will bite limbs, neck, tails, and even eat ova from females. Dendiculata seems to naturally display a lack of nest building skills like carbonaria. They utilize the extremely thick forest floor debris to merely cover the eggs deposited in the wild. This time of egg laying also begins at the dry season so many leaves fall off forest trees and scrubs adding the "shedding" of thick Amazonia forest floor, another layer of protection for the ova deposited, this is also done in respect that a wet season could ruin the eggs if deposited in the ground like a traditional nest. From wet to dry seasons in the thick amazon forests water levels can rise and drop as high of elevation up to 50'.
Anyways blah blah blah from me. I'd keep em separate just because up there different species.
@FLINTUS I must say it's very uncommon to see dendiculata and carbonaria to possess similar retreats in the wild and or mating. Yes it has been observed but most of those sitings were rare. In vargus and ramirezs noted literature of cladding the phylogeographic differences of carbonaria they did sample quite a few dendiculata. Both c.d and c.c were very absent in overlapping ranges of ecosystems. However they were noted to be found within tolerable distances of possible "overlapping" migrations. Not much has been done I terms of radio tracking two species against the range or territory both inhabit. But countries like north western Brazil into north east Peru, south west Columbia do all represent a population of both species.mbut when looked at in a microscopic level on the ground these areas withhold a vast Eco diversity. Carbonaria more grassland and open terrain, versus dendiculata more favoring of the extreme density of canopy forests and much higher humid environments. So perhaps each species "could" venture into one another's territory and possibly mate. But I would think it's improbable as each species is geared towards a different survival approach. Food differs, light exposures, moisture, edible fauna or carrion etc... Now human impact may play a large roll on forced integrades within these two species.
Upon keeping these two species together. Yes it is possible. In captivity it's much easier than in the wild. Dendiculata can be "molded" to be suitable minimum standards that's are less forgiving than the wild. Same for carbonaria. However, the way we keep our species is as wild as possible. Dendiculata favor much more wet and dark habitat and a lot more rooted vegetables and broad leaf flora with a very high protein of carrion, meats, eggs, turtle pellets. Where *** the carbonaria get proteins, meats, eggs, on a far more limited basis and are never fed large rooted flora like taro, carrots, ginger root, hicima, sweet potatoe etc.. That are most favored by dendiculata. Anther note is that dendiculata are far more solitary than carbonaria. Yes they can survive together. But are much less forgiving than carbonaria. Rarely if ever have we seen any male and or female aggression in the 35 plus specimens of carbonaria kept here(from hatchling, to yearling to adults). Denediculata can represent an extreme aggressive nature. Especially when kept within more natural thresholds of high humidity and deep burrows heavily planted enclosures. Males will bite limbs, neck, tails, and even eat ova from females. Dendiculata seems to naturally display a lack of nest building skills like carbonaria. They utilize the extremely thick forest floor debris to merely cover the eggs deposited in the wild. This time of egg laying also begins at the dry season so many leaves fall off forest trees and scrubs adding the "shedding" of thick Amazonia forest floor, another layer of protection for the ova deposited, this is also done in respect that a wet season could ruin the eggs if deposited in the ground like a traditional nest. From wet to dry seasons in the thick amazon forests water levels can rise and drop as high of elevation up to 50'.
Anyways blah blah blah from me. I'd keep em separate just because up there different species.
Turtlepete
Well-Known Member
Those are some interesting claims. Especially 5-7 ssp. of carbonaria….Every study I've seen concluded that there there is not enough variation to be classified as different sub-species. And carbonaria bearing more genetic resemblance to erosa then denticulata seems to me like a long-shot, at best. Do you have any information to back this up?
Mavrik
Member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2014
- Messages
- 81
Fascinating discussion. Please, carry on -- as a keeper of multiple species, I find everyone's opinions and reasoning for their logic stimulating.
I agree with you, and that was my understanding that the ranges only slightly overlap, but in those ranges, a number of 'sightings' have been reported, and there are too many for them to be anomalies, it is happening in the overlappings of the ranges IMO.Well this topic can very very detailed. Busy little bee I have been lately with regard to Kinixys homeana/erosa. Currently working on a reinforcement population for both in west Africa. After lots of genetic data and sampling of specimens kept. It was overruled by both the organization I started and the west African organization that a known locale specific population be worked with as the founder group instead of imported group we currently posses for the long term reintroduction. So this can be easily mirrored into any species being worked with.
@FLINTUS I must say it's very uncommon to see dendiculata and carbonaria to possess similar retreats in the wild and or mating. Yes it has been observed but most of those sitings were rare. In vargus and ramirezs noted literature of cladding the phylogeographic differences of carbonaria they did sample quite a few dendiculata. Both c.d and c.c were very absent in overlapping ranges of ecosystems. However they were noted to be found within tolerable distances of possible "overlapping" migrations. Not much has been done I terms of radio tracking two species against the range or territory both inhabit. But countries like north western Brazil into north east Peru, south west Columbia do all represent a population of both species.mbut when looked at in a microscopic level on the ground these areas withhold a vast Eco diversity. Carbonaria more grassland and open terrain, versus dendiculata more favoring of the extreme density of canopy forests and much higher humid environments. So perhaps each species "could" venture into one another's territory and possibly mate. But I would think it's improbable as each species is geared towards a different survival approach. Food differs, light exposures, moisture, edible fauna or carrion etc... Now human impact may play a large roll on forced integrades within these two species.
Upon keeping these two species together. Yes it is possible. In captivity it's much easier than in the wild. Dendiculata can be "molded" to be suitable minimum standards that's are less forgiving than the wild. Same for carbonaria. However, the way we keep our species is as wild as possible. Dendiculata favor much more wet and dark habitat and a lot more rooted vegetables and broad leaf flora with a very high protein of carrion, meats, eggs, turtle pellets. Where *** the carbonaria get proteins, meats, eggs, on a far more limited basis and are never fed large rooted flora like taro, carrots, ginger root, hicima, sweet potatoe etc.. That are most favored by dendiculata. Anther note is that dendiculata are far more solitary than carbonaria. Yes they can survive together. But are much less forgiving than carbonaria. Rarely if ever have we seen any male and or female aggression in the 35 plus specimens of carbonaria kept here(from hatchling, to yearling to adults). Denediculata can represent an extreme aggressive nature. Especially when kept within more natural thresholds of high humidity and deep burrows heavily planted enclosures. Males will bite limbs, neck, tails, and even eat ova from females. Dendiculata seems to naturally display a lack of nest building skills like carbonaria. They utilize the extremely thick forest floor debris to merely cover the eggs deposited in the wild. This time of egg laying also begins at the dry season so many leaves fall off forest trees and scrubs adding the "shedding" of thick Amazonia forest floor, another layer of protection for the ova deposited, this is also done in respect that a wet season could ruin the eggs if deposited in the ground like a traditional nest. From wet to dry seasons in the thick amazon forests water levels can rise and drop as high of elevation up to 50'.
Anyways blah blah blah from me. I'd keep em separate just because up there different species.
Still wouldn't keep them together personally, but in theory, I think it would work for a female red foot and a female yellow foot-both CB- in a very large outside enclosure, where you could have different micro-climates.
There have been a few discussions on here regarding the ssp. of carbonaria, but as we all know most of the classification system isn't accurate atm-graeca is an even better example.
They are definitely common ancestors, and it appears that the denticulata evolved from the red foot like tortoise, but in genetic history, apparently their closest relative is erosa and homeana. Haven't looked much into it, someone on here claimed that though, can't remember who. One of the mods I think.
Thank you all for your input
I am now wiser than before this thread started, a lot has been confirmed to me.
I just want to say when an amateur like me is asking for info off so many experts, and all the experts have slightly different views, I'm forced to in effect seem to be ignoring certain advice, this is not the case, I merely way up the pros and cons and make a decision. No insult is ever meant to anyone.
Thanks
craig
I am now wiser than before this thread started, a lot has been confirmed to me.
I just want to say when an amateur like me is asking for info off so many experts, and all the experts have slightly different views, I'm forced to in effect seem to be ignoring certain advice, this is not the case, I merely way up the pros and cons and make a decision. No insult is ever meant to anyone.
Thanks
craig
shelley11
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2015
- Messages
- 20
Torts of different species should never be kept together as they are very territorial and can send each other very stressful which could result with a very unhappy tortoise. It's fine to keep them in the same room as long as they can't see or smell each other. Thanks for reading hope this helps
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