Leopard hatchling, need reassurance/advice.

[chigs184]

Hi all, I have posted before, but have since upgraded my leopard's setup and not a a lot has changed. He has been in a closed chamber for 5 w4eeks now. I will post pictures at the end of Sunny's setup and weight gain/loss. The problem I am having, is he is just not really gaining any weight. We were told he was a couple of months old when we got him and we've now had him for 4 months. He was 31g when we got him and he has weighed pretty much between 34 and 37g over the last 4 months and is a lot smaller than he should be based on what I have researched. In general he seems very healthy and active, eats well and seems pretty happy (as far as I can tell)
His setup is closed chamber, an ambient temperature of about 86F, I struggle to actually get this number lower during the day. At night time his stat comes on at 79F and ambient at night is between 80 and 85. Humidity is between 80% and 90% at all times. We use a CHE, he has a t5 UV tube, an arcadia LED and he has a 75W floodlight for basking. I feel like his setup is as good as I can make it. I make a weeks worth of food at a time, a mix of, dandelion greens, oxtongue, violet, mallow, clover, fescue grass and rye grass. I'll add a couple of more weeds if I can get them. We add calcium on Mon/Wed/Fri, I have tried mazuri and he just will not eat it. I have tried a bowl of wet pellets, I have tried breaking it up into tiny pieces over his food, he just doesn't seem to like it. I recently swapped that for a high fibre mixup from a place called hapytortoises and he seems to eat this. He has a couple of water bowls and food bowls and I would say he eats between 75% and all of his food everyday. One thing he does which i'm not sure about, (picture below) he digs into the substrate in the corner of the basking area where he naps during the day. I don't know if he's telling me he's too hot, or if it's a comfort thing. At night he either sleeps in his hide in the middle of the enclosure, or enters the jungle and sleeps underneath the fern. His basking area peaks at 98.7F. Glad to give anymore information you need.

I guess i'm hoping for someone who has been in a similar situation to me, where they had no growth for about 6 months and then they just started growing, or anyone with any experience of this at all.

EDIT: His shell is nice and firm he has shed a couple of times, which I would assume is some sort of sign of growth.

 

[TammyJ]

It's a lovely enclosure. If I were that little tortoise, I would like more cover on the open areas. I would love to burrow under some large leaves sometimes on my trips around my property during the day, this would make me feel more comfortable and safe, and also I would like one or two more "Food Stations" to travel to... just musing.

 

[Nsav]

Your set up looks nice.

I agree with Tammy that adding in a few more hiding spaces would make it even more comfortable for him to have places to hide and feel safe. My guy also likes to make himself cozy by nestling in the coco coir substrate, behind rocks, under plants or driftwood etc.

I’ve had my Leopard since November 2023. I got him at a few months old as well.

I have zero expertise in tortoise care. But this forum has taught me a ton just by reading hundreds of posts about what has worked for others. For that, I’m very grateful to the experienced TFO members that provide sage advice, free-of-charge, 24/7.

Did you try the Mazuri Low Starch Diet or the Original Diet 5M21? Because my little guy starting gaining steady weight after I introduced the 5M21. He wouldn’t eat much of the LS version.

I don’t know what if it’s the soybean hulls or the ground corn they use to make it, but my tort really took to the original formula (even with those questionable ingredients) and it plumped him up over time. He had started dry and it wasn’t until I got onto this site that I learn the importance of humidity, soaking, proper lighting etc.

Also, you’re soaking the pellets, right? That makes them easier to eat and to spread onto your bed of greens.

My layperson’s recommendation would be to very slowly introduce timy amounts of the 5M21 into his greens and increase the amount little by little to get him used to it. You can also try ZooMed’s Grassland Tortoise food.

Of course, the pelleted food should in no way substitute real tortoise food, like grasses, greens, Kapidolo Farms food, etc., but can be used as a supplement, akin to a weight lifter using protein shakes!

Good luck to you, and keep us posted.

 

[chigs184]

Your set up looks nice.

I agree with Tammy that adding in a few more hiding spaces would make it even more comfortable for him to have places to hide and feel safe. My guy also likes to make himself cozy by nestling in the coco coir substrate, behind rocks, under plants or driftwood etc.

I’ve had my Leopard since November 2023. I got him at a few months old as well.

I have zero expertise in tortoise care. But this forum has taught me a ton just by reading hundreds of posts about what has worked for others. For that, I’m very grateful to the experienced TFO members that provide sage advice, free-of-charge, 24/7.

Did you try the Mazuri Low Starch Diet or the Original Diet 5M21? Because my little guy starting gaining steady weight after I introduced the 5M21. He wouldn’t eat much of the LS version.

I don’t know what if it’s the soybean hulls or the ground corn they use to make it, but my tort really took to the original formula (even with those questionable ingredients) and it plumped him up over time. He had started dry and it wasn’t until I got onto this site that I learn the importance of humidity, soaking, proper lighting etc.

Also, you’re soaking the pellets, right? That makes them easier to eat and to spread onto your bed of greens.

My layperson’s recommendation would be to very slowly introduce timy amounts of the 5M21 into his greens and increase the amount little by little to get him used to it. You can also try ZooMed’s Grassland Tortoise food.

Of course, the pelleted food should in no way substitute real tortoise food, like grasses, greens, Kapidolo Farms food, etc., but can be used as a supplement, akin to a weight lifter using protein shakes!

Good luck to you, and keep us posted.

Whenever I add anything to his enclosure that isn't flat, he seems determined to roll over. I've come home a few times where ever is lying on his back, so been a little reluctant to add rocks. I'm not actually sure what version of mazuri it is, it came ina clear bag with no I'd of what type. I'll try the one you mentioned.

I live in England and mazuri does seem to be a bit of a hassle to get hold of without paying a fortune. Does anyone who lives in the UK have a link for where they buy the 5M21 formula?

 

[wellington]

The small pellet mazuri is better than the old stuff which is a much bigger pellet, more like a nugget, but the smaller is not liked as much. Mazuri will usually always put weight and size on.
Be sure to weigh at the same time every day. Usually after the morning soak when they usually poop, but before feeding is the best.
Otherwise as long as he acts and eats good, I wouldn't worry. I would keep trying to get the mazuri you have eaten. It helps to round out a grocery diet. Adding one soaked pellet to a pile of food, mixed well. Do this daily and he eventually will give in.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Whenever I add anything to his enclosure that isn't flat, he seems determined to roll over. I've come home a few times where ever is lying on his back, so been a little reluctant to add rocks. I'm not actually sure what version of mazuri it is, it came ina clear bag with no I'd of what type. I'll try the one you mentioned.

I live in England and mazuri does seem to be a bit of a hassle to get hold of without paying a fortune. Does anyone who lives in the UK have a link for where they buy the 5M21 formula?

It's officially sold as NutraZu in EU/UK. Shops often resell it in "white label" bags (probably, it's sold only in "zoo-scale" packaging).

Google brought a few links where to buy it:
1. https://www.tortoisehut.co.uk/product-page/nutrazu-tortoise-diet
2. https://www.midlandtortoise.co.uk/product-page/mazuri-4kg-bag-5m21
3. https://www.kiezebrink.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1164 (the best price, but only 11Kg bags)

Decent alternative to Mazuri is Hikari Mulberific, very palatable and it's in the middle between Mazuri 5M21 and LS in terms of fiber/protein ratio.

I still feel it's a good idea to make a fecal test. It should be relatively cheap and doesn't require to bring tortoise for exam. They can be false negative, but in the opposite case early caught cryptosporidium or protozoans can be treated.

 

[Tom]

Hi all, I have posted before, but have since upgraded my leopard's setup and not a a lot has changed. He has been in a closed chamber for 5 w4eeks now. I will post pictures at the end of Sunny's setup and weight gain/loss. The problem I am having, is he is just not really gaining any weight. We were told he was a couple of months old when we got him and we've now had him for 4 months. He was 31g when we got him and he has weighed pretty much between 34 and 37g over the last 4 months and is a lot smaller than he should be based on what I have researched. In general he seems very healthy and active, eats well and seems pretty happy (as far as I can tell)
His setup is closed chamber, an ambient temperature of about 86F, I struggle to actually get this number lower during the day. At night time his stat comes on at 79F and ambient at night is between 80 and 85. Humidity is between 80% and 90% at all times. We use a CHE, he has a t5 UV tube, an arcadia LED and he has a 75W floodlight for basking. I feel like his setup is as good as I can make it. I make a weeks worth of food at a time, a mix of, dandelion greens, oxtongue, violet, mallow, clover, fescue grass and rye grass. I'll add a couple of more weeds if I can get them. We add calcium on Mon/Wed/Fri, I have tried mazuri and he just will not eat it. I have tried a bowl of wet pellets, I have tried breaking it up into tiny pieces over his food, he just doesn't seem to like it. I recently swapped that for a high fibre mixup from a place called hapytortoises and he seems to eat this. He has a couple of water bowls and food bowls and I would say he eats between 75% and all of his food everyday. One thing he does which i'm not sure about, (picture below) he digs into the substrate in the corner of the basking area where he naps during the day. I don't know if he's telling me he's too hot, or if it's a comfort thing. At night he either sleeps in his hide in the middle of the enclosure, or enters the jungle and sleeps underneath the fern. His basking area peaks at 98.7F. Glad to give anymore information you need.

I guess i'm hoping for someone who has been in a similar situation to me, where they had no growth for about 6 months and then they just started growing, or anyone with any experience of this at all.

EDIT: His shell is nice and firm he has shed a couple of times, which I would assume is some sort of sign of growth.

Your set up and care routine are just about perfect. The problem is that you can't undo someone else's mistake that happened before you got the tortoise.

Run the fecal and see what you've got, but based on the weight at two months old when you got it, and the current lack of growth even in ideal conditions for over a month, I suspect this:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

Almost no one starts this species correctly. Most breeders and sellers mistakenly believe they come from a desert and need dry conditions. Chronic dehydration in a hatchling damages the kidneys. This damage cannot be undone. Some of them are too damaged and will die, no matter what anyone does, a few weeks or months later. The tell tale sign is no growth in spite of good food, good appetite, normal behavior and activity. Some of them have enough functioning kidney left to survive and eventually pull through. All you can do is try your best, which is what you are doing.

Tell the breeder or person you got the tortoise from what you have learned here. They will no doubt argue, blame you, and possibly get angry with you. Meanwhile, the evidence is obvious. If these breeders hear it enough times from enough people, some of them might change their ways.

 

[TammyJ]

Whenever I add anything to his enclosure that isn't flat, he seems determined to roll over. I've come home a few times where ever is lying on his back, so been a little reluctant to add rocks. I'm not actually sure what version of mazuri it is, it came ina clear bag with no I'd of what type. I'll try the one you mentioned.

I live in England and mazuri does seem to be a bit of a hassle to get hold of without paying a fortune. Does anyone who lives in the UK have a link for where they buy the 5M21 formula?

I had suggested adding some large leaves to the enclosure. Leaves are generally flat. He can burrow under them without ending up on his back. You can maybe get large lettuce leaves,for example, at the supermarket and just lay them down here and there. Change them every couple of days to prevent mold growth. Here in Jamaica I used fresh grass and pumpkin vine leaves in piles for my Redfoots. Anyway I hope your little one makes it, certainly if he doesn't it's no fault of yours.

 

[chigs184]

A lot of reading to do, thanks everyone for your replies. Will report back when i'm less busy. Thanks again

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

If this baby doesn’t thrive, it’s absolutely no fault of your own! I agree with the above that everything sounds pretty damn perfect! As Tom has touched on, a bad start can prove fatal despite doing everything in your power(which you are)
All is of course not lost just yet, keep doing what you’re doing and hopefully he’ll start improving! The fact he’s active with a nice appetite is encouraging and testament to your good carerooting for you and baby!

 

[Megatron's Mom]

When I was gifted mine. I chopped up all the food in tiny pieces. Someone on here suggested it to make it easier for them. I know others who say not to bother, but heck why not make things just a little easier for a short time if it doesn't hurt anything. I also had to take it really slow getting mine to eat Mazuri, I used just one pellet soaked into mush and mixed it into the food. Then no matter where they took a bite they ended up with one little taste of Mazuri. Now they will devoure it like candy.

 

[chigs184]

It's officially sold as NutraZu in EU/UK. Shops often resell it in "white label" bags (probably, it's sold only in "zoo-scale" packaging).

Google brought a few links where to buy it:
1. https://www.tortoisehut.co.uk/product-page/nutrazu-tortoise-diet
2. https://www.midlandtortoise.co.uk/product-page/mazuri-4kg-bag-5m21
3. https://www.kiezebrink.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1164 (the best price, but only 11Kg bags)

Decent alternative to Mazuri is Hikari Mulberific, very palatable and it's in the middle between Mazuri 5M21 and LS in terms of fiber/protein ratio.

I still feel it's a good idea to make a fecal test. It should be relatively cheap and doesn't require to bring tortoise for exam. They can be false negative, but in the opposite case early caught cryptosporidium or protozoans can be treated.

Thanks very much

 

[chigs184]

He has a check over booked for tomorrow morning and they'll take a sample. Hopefully all is well.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

He has a check over booked for tomorrow morning and they'll take a sample. Hopefully all is well.

Do keep us updated

 

[Dustin]

He has a check over booked for tomorrow morning and they'll take a sample. Hopefully all is well.

One of the first things you should look for with a young tortoise that does not gain weight is Cryptosporidium. I highly recommend that you ask your vet specifically to look for it. This is one of the only emerging tortoise diseases that can be diagnosed in the vets office without sending samples out to a lab. It can be identified via microscopy and acid-fast staining.

 

[chigs184]

One of the first things you should look for with a young tortoise that does not gain weight is Cryptosporidium. I highly recommend that you ask your vet specifically to look for it. This is one of the only emerging tortoise diseases that can be diagnosed in the vets office without sending samples out to a lab. It can be identified via microscopy and acid-fast staining.

We did speak about that over the phone. Thanks though

 

[chigs184]

He did have parasites in his poop, they gave him some oral medication and his sample has been sent off to check for cryptosporidium. His plastron is also softer than they would like.
This is unrelated but I'm going to post a picture below... when his substrate is dry like this around the basking area (coco coir) do you mix the substrate about or just keep spraying it? It looks very dry, but it's moist underneath and humidity is 85%.
Don't want to keep spraying it if it doesn't need to be moist on top since humidity will climb to about 95%. Sorry if that seems a stupid question. Thanks.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

He did have parasites in his poop, they gave him some oral medication and his sample has been sent off to check for cryptosporidium. His plastron is also softer than they would like.
This is unrelated but I'm going to post a picture below... when his substrate is dry like this around the basking area (coco coir) do you mix the substrate about or just keep spraying it? It looks very dry, but it's moist underneath and humidity is 85%.
Don't want to keep spraying it if it doesn't need to be moist on top since humidity will climb to about 95%. Sorry if that seems a stupid question. Thanks.

Bless him, do you know what meds they give? I’m just always curious how vets treat them, especially babies.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the substrate, maybe give it a little mix, this is why I tend to prefer orchid bark on top, but a lot of folks prefer using just coir for babies which is fair

 

[chigs184]

Bless him, do you know what meds they give? I’m just always curious how vets treat them, especially babies.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the substrate, maybe give it a little mix, this is why I tend to prefer orchid bark on top, but a lot of folks prefer using just coir for babies which is fair

Would it be panacur 10%? Only thing on the vet bill which makes sense, not sure.
Vet wasn't super helpful in all honesty.

I did have orchid bark before but he looked so awkward walking on it since he's so small, going to use coco coir until he grows a bit.

 

[zovick]

Would it be panacur 10%? Only thing on the vet bill which makes sense, not sure.
Vet wasn't super helpful in all honesty.

I did have orchid bark before but he looked so awkward walking on it since he's so small, going to use coco coir until he grows a bit.

Panacur is a dewormer, so yes, that would seem to be what the vet prescribed if it is listed on the bill.