Little Sulcata Issues...Help Needed

[TammyJ]

I was given this little guy to try to help. I only know what I have learned here, from Tom in particular. This small tortoise was hatched at end of July 2020 so he is a year and nine months. Have to get a weight for him but I know he is way too small for his age. Common issue. Also pyramided from you know what. Kept too dry. When I got him three weeks ago, after a few days he started eating, now for the past five days, nothing that I give him, even his favourite pumpkin blooms. You can see white areas on his skin. What is that? One eye now does not open. I keep him warm and humid as Tom instructs. I am asking for advice and suggestions. I soak him as recommended.

 

[TammyJ]

I was given this little guy to try to help. I only know what I have learned here, from Tom in particular. This small tortoise was hatched at end of July 2020 so he is a year and nine months. Have to get a weight for him but I know he is way too small for his age. Common issue. Also pyramided from you know what. Kept too dry. When I got him three weeks ago, after a few days he started eating, now for the past five days, nothing that I give him, even his favourite pumpkin blooms. You can see white areas on his skin. What is that? One eye now does not open. I keep him warm and humid as Tom instructs. I am asking for advice and suggestions. I soak him as recommended.View attachment 344035View attachment 344036

There are no tortoise vets here.

 

[TammyJ]

I am waiting and really hoping for a response from knowledgeable people here.

 

[TammyJ]

I am waiting and really hoping for a response from knowledgeable people here.

His bottom jaw looks swollen? Like he has mumps.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Hate to alarm you, but this might be austwickia virus. Search on that, but lets hope it isnt. Maybe @mastershake & @zovick can look & help

➡️➡️ https://www.allturtles.com/austwickia-chelonae/

 

[Maro2Bear]

Hate to alarm you, but this might be austwickia virus. Search on that, but lets hope it isnt. Maybe @mastershake & @zovick can look & help

➡️➡️ https://www.allturtles.com/austwickia-chelonae/

I see no one jumped in here, maybe @Tom can chime in.

 

[Tom]

I am waiting and really hoping for a response from knowledgeable people here.

What are the temperatures? Over night low? Daytime ambient?
What are you using for night heat?
UV?

 

[TammyJ]

Hate to alarm you, but this might be austwickia virus. Search on that, but lets hope it isnt. Maybe @mastershake & @zovick can look & help

➡️➡️ https://www.allturtles.com/austwickia-chelonae/

This is what I was aware of, this possibility, since I first got him. I am just glad in any case, that I have always observed strict, paranoid quarantine and hygiene protocol. Kept total separation from my own reptiles. By the way, is this disease not a bacteria, you said "austwickia virus"?

 

[TammyJ]

What are the temperatures? Over night low? Daytime ambient?
What are you using for night heat?
UV?

Overnight low and high would be 82. I use a closed box with moist foliage for humidity and an incandescent bulb on the side which is all contained within a covered small area in a corner of the room. In the daytime he is outside in either dappled sun with deep shade, or short exposure to direct sun and deep shade, and the daytime temps outside range from 80 to 90. He gets outside time for about four hours, closely monitored, and daily long warm soaks.

 

[Tom]

Overnight low and high would be 82. I use a closed box with moist foliage for humidity and an incandescent bulb on the side which is all contained within a covered small area in a corner of the room. In the daytime he is outside in either dappled sun with deep shade, or short exposure to direct sun and deep shade, and the daytime temps outside range from 80 to 90. He gets outside time for about four hours, closely monitored, and daily long warm soaks.

All of that sounds ideal. Are you soaking daily? What are you offering for food? Have you ID'd all of the plants the tort has access to in the outdoor enclosure?

 

[dd33]

@mastershake look at this tortoise.

His face looks deformed like many of the tortoises that have been posted recently exhibiting signs of Austwickia. It also looks like he is missing a nail on his front right foot.

Doe he currently have any yellow bumps on him?

 

[TammyJ]

All of that sounds ideal. Are you soaking daily? What are you offering for food? Have you ID'd all of the plants the tort has access to in the outdoor enclosure?

I have only had him for a little over two weeks, from April 14. Yes, he gets long warm soaks daily, like for an hour. He has access only to what I place in his outdoor enclosure, including a basic "substrate" of green guinea grass, water grass and pumpkin leaves, which is very moist. I also give him a little Repti Calcium, (not every day) pumpkin flowers, hibiscus, purslane, clover and dandelion flowers and leaves.

 

[TammyJ]

@mastershake look at this tortoise.

His face looks deformed like many of the tortoises that have been posted recently exhibiting signs of Austwickia. It also looks like he is missing a nail on his front right foot.

Doe he currently have any yellow bumps on him?

I have not seen any yellow bumps in the time I have had him. But I know that does not say he does not have Austwickia. His face has only been swollen like that for the past two days, it was not like that previously when he came to me.

 

[TammyJ]

A few questions about the Austwickia disease. HOPE he does not have it but it looks like he does. So far.

1. Are there any other reptile diseases (bacterial/fungal/viral) which may mimic Austwickia with some or most of the symptoms at any stage? That are NOT fatal? What are they?

2. If all indications are towards it being Austwickia, which is always eventually fatal, isn't the best option to euthanize the animal instead of continuing with antibiotics that are postponing the inevitable and causing the animal and its owner undue prolonged stress? If I am sure after a while that this is Austwickia, due to the symptoms and experts' opinions if not an actual (impossible to get done here) lab test, do I just tell the owner to take it back as I can do nothing more for it? Am I being premature?

I have become very attached to this little guy.

 

[TammyJ]

A few questions about the Austwickia disease. HOPE he does not have it but it looks like he does. So far.

1. Are there any other reptile diseases (bacterial/fungal/viral) which may mimic Austwickia with some or most of the symptoms at any stage? That are NOT fatal? What are they?

2. If all indications are towards it being Austwickia, which is always eventually fatal, isn't the best option to euthanize the animal instead of continuing with antibiotics that are postponing the inevitable and causing the animal and its owner undue prolonged stress? If I am sure after a while that this is Austwickia, due to the symptoms and experts' opinions if not an actual (impossible to get done here) lab test, do I just tell the owner to take it back as I can do nothing more for it? Am I being premature?

I have become very attached to this little guy.

No, Tammy. You have not "become very attached". You LOVE the little tortoise.

 

[Maro2Bear]

This is what I was aware of, this possibility, since I first got him. I am just glad in any case, that I have always observed strict, paranoid quarantine and hygiene protocol. Kept total separation from my own reptiles. By the way, is this disease not a bacteria, you said "austwickia virus"?

I was thinking virus for some reason.

Here‘s another in-depth article on it. (Ps - I do possibly see some small skin bumps on the left leg where it meets the carapace). ((Hope it isnt)j

Identification of Austwickia chelonae as cause of cutaneous granuloma in endangered crocodile lizards using metataxonomics

The crocodile lizard (Shinisaurus crocodilurus Ahl, 1930) is an endangered reptile species, and in recent years many have died from diseases, especially the rescued and breeding individuals. However, pathogens underlying these diseases are unclear. In ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[mastershake]

im hesitant to say its aw. from the pics only this animal does not appear to have it. but i cant say its impossible. are there any of the other symptoms of it? missing toenails, swelling in back legs, loose stools, eating like crazy and not growing basically at all? the only spots i see that maybe is there on the upper jaw a slight yellowish patch and upper left leg by the neck but it could just be the lighting. but its not typical resemblance to aw where i would say without a doubt yes i think it is aw. typically the lighter areas are where they shed and new skin showed up. the back legs look just a bit swollen mayyyybe. typically when they show symptoms at skin level they usually have a similar resemblance most times. this is questionable but again im not going to say yes i think it is. if it ends up being yes sadly the only real proper thing to do for them is to euthanize there is no long term cure and they only suffer from the inside out. my suggestion would be to start them in quarantine and treat it possibly like they do have it and keep an eye on it for now. make sure setup is correct and go from there. without any signs specifically they would need samples to test for it and i dont see anything tell tale for them to remove to do enough of a test on in this case. also aw is a bacteria not really a disease.

 

[TammyJ]

Thank you all for your response, it's all much appreciated. The little guy is fading steadily now, no eating, no movement unless prodded. Gave him his warm shallow soak tonight anyway and set him up to sleep hoping that if he is suffering, he won't wake up tomorrow. Have asked his owner to collect him asap.

 

[mastershake]

he needs to see a proper vet for testing if they want to have a chance. the swelling is def concerning. if he was one here bloodwork xrays and other testing would be done right from the start. and he would be started on meds for things like the inflammation till we have an answer.

 

[TammyJ]

Very sorry to say the little guy passed over the Rainbow Bridge last night some time.
I am trying to get the owner to come for him and hoping tests might be done (necropsy, whatever) but I don't know yet how this will be dealt with by the owner. I think this tortoise was hatched here, and not imported, but I am not absolutely certain.
By the way, experts, how is the aw bacteria acquired if not by being passed on from an infected other reptile? Can it be by eating something rotten? Would this then cause the dermatophilosis to develop?