Loss After Hibernation

[Tom]

With Joe, I am constantly monitoring him during the wind down. If we have a few warm days the countdown restarts for him - you know I have a lamp outdoors for him, but when the time comes for hibernation he won't eat even with basking under the lamp.

He seems to know when frost is coming and it's not unusual for me to put him down and the frost happen that night.

With modern technology, I monitor accuweather in the run up to hibernation - looking for a maximum of 9C consistently before I'll hibernate him.

He's double boxed in our garage and I have a min max thermometer in the box with him. The 'outdoor' wireless probe is in his box and I have the indoor part so I can read what's going on.

I have been known on very rare occasions to wrap a couple of picnic box ice packs in a towel and put them in the outer box to get me through a freak warm week in January. But I try not to do it as I'd rather get him up if the weather turns warm.

Even during our winter cold spells, our daytime high is seldom lower than about 12-13C here. We get down to 0C, or even a little lower, on occasion over night, but winter days are usually around 21-22C and sometimes as high as 32C for days or weeks at a time.

This is what I'm referring to when I say that its consistently too warm here for above ground hibernation, and its consistently inconsistent.

 

[Pearly]

Because I take in quite a few sick and injured turtles and tortoises, I'm fairly used to losing an animal occasionally. But it still bothers me when I lose one that appeared to be ok. Pearly, I'll bet your 'guess' is right on. Maybe she didn't empty her G.I. tract fully before going into hibernation, however, I did keep them in the hibernatorium for three or four weeks without food and with the lid open so sun could shine in on them. You're correct, necropsy is out of the question for me. I operate on a shoestring and do most everything I can myself.

That makes me admire you even more! God bless you and people like you

 

[surfergirl]

I am sorry for your loss too Yvonne.

 

[dmmj]

I wish we could know the statistics for death in the wild during and after hibernation. perhaps the numbers lost in captivity are the same as in the wild?

 

[Tom]

I wish we could know the statistics for death in the wild during and after hibernation. perhaps the numbers lost in captivity are the same as in the wild?

That would be very interesting to know.

Since we don't have that, for the sake of conversation, I would guess that given all the known microclimates and ability to burrow in the area where they've lived their whole lives in the wild, compared to them being in a yard or a box, above ground in a foreign land, the wild ones would have a better survival rate.

 

[dmmj]

I would have to disagree with that the ones in the wild have to hibernate whether they're sick or not whether they've had enough food an injury and they don't have a choice. in a perfect world they would probably have a better survival rate but the wild is very very harsh. I just don't see them having a better survival rate

 

[ascott]

It was raw around her cloaca.

Yvonne, I still don't think that it sounds like food rot ....especially since you keep track the last three to four weeks before the lid goes down....I still bet there was an injury or superficial issue. You also said this tortoise was an adult, a bit more steadfast than a young tortoise so to me the issue of temp would not be what I guess either...or you would likely have more than one tortoise with ill affect....yes, temps are important but not as important as some make them up to be....how long was this bunch of torts down...including the wind down....

 

[Yvonne G]

From early October until about two weeks ago.

 

[ascott]

From early October until about two weeks ago.

So just shy of 6 months? When you let them out were they all up and awake or where some awake and some still groggy/sleeping? Did some look spry or all sleepy eye still?

 

[Yvonne G]

When I heard them scratching around, I got them out and put them in a soak, inspecting each individually. They were all squirmy and wide awake, with a nice weight to each.

 

[dmmj]

so no noticeable or significant weight loss? so then I'm definitely not leaning toward temperature related

 

[Crzt4torts]

So sorry to hear of your loss.

 

[ascott]

When I heard them scratching around, I got them out and put them in a soak, inspecting each individually. They were all squirmy and wide awake, with a nice weight to each.

After you did the wake up inspection and turned them loose in their yard.....did you do any other individual inspections of them? If not, perhaps then you actually had a successful brumation and something occurred in their yard??? Two weeks is enough time for a fester to occur and end up in the manner in which you described...

 

[Thunder-Falcon]

My opinion?

Because our climate is vastly different than the climate where these guys come from, and when we do as so many members here advocate and let them figure it out on their own, it doesn't work sometimes. Some of them do well enough and survive, but letting them shut down on their own in fall outdoors, and then hibernating them above ground with our inconsistent temperature swings all winter long, and then putting them back outside in spring with our cold nights and days that can be 55-95 all spring long, just doesn't suit them well enough.

How many times have people said things like: "Tortoises have survived for millions of years without human help. They know what to do…" I say they don't. I say that even if they know what to do in their wild native areas where they hatch, they don't know what to do in our artificial, man made (or woman made…), small, captive environments, on a totally foreign continent.

It is my assertion that because we keep these tortoises in artificial environments that cannot possibly provide them with all the things the wild can provide, that we need to artificially help them with the details of hibernation. Leaving them outside and hoping they know what to do and make all the right choices, frequently leads to their death. I take the choices away from them. I make sure every detail is covered starting with cutting off the food (and leaving no possibility of them eating anything…), gradually reducing the light cycle and temperatures, getting and keeping them well hydrated and emptying the gut before hibernation begins, gradually getting them down to the correct temp for hibernation and keeping the temperature consistent and cold enough all winter long, and then reversing the process in spring with a gradually warm up and light cycle and daily soaks for a while. I could not do these things in an uncontrollable outdoor enclosure. I have to bring them in. The result of my efforts is that every animal of every species that I hibernate wakes up alive and well.

what do you do to hydrate them?... just provide a water dish?

 

[Yvonne G]

After the initial soak when getting them up, they were turned loose in their yard to be wild tortoises. They have a large waterer (a plastic garbage dumpster lid)