Major Vet Gripe

[BoxyDorothy]

Our little Dorothy started showing some distress and we took her in to the vet. (Yes a reptile vet). She was prescribed antibiotic, they gave her an injection in office and sent us home with 4 shots. Today was the first shot from us, so we prepared everything, got ready and...

Well lets back up they prepared 4 injections in office for us and said to keep them frozen. Check.
I got it out of the freezer and pushed out all the air...only to find out that once the plunger was pushed ALL the way to the end where it could no longer move there was no way for ANY medicine to come out.

So I have 4 needs all the same. If I push them all the way down there is not ENOUGH in them to even reach the needle tip. This leads me to believe they did the exact thing in office and didn't even inject her. It's sunday so obviously they are closed, she was seen on Thursday, and I will very much be calling them back tomorrow, very unhappy.

How can they be this incompetent? They literally did not even inject her at all. I realized she is ONLY 36-40 grams and the does for her is tiny, but to not even put enough medicine in the needle for it to come out the end it nuts to me.

 

[Yvonne G]

In my opinion antibiotics should not be given unless a mucus smear is looked at under a microscope to see if antibiotics are required.

 

[Tom]

Our little Dorothy started showing some distress and we took her in to the vet. (Yes a reptile vet). She was prescribed antibiotic, they gave her an injection in office and sent us home with 4 shots. Today was the first shot from us, so we prepared everything, got ready and...

Well lets back up they prepared 4 injections in office for us and said to keep them frozen. Check.
I got it out of the freezer and pushed out all the air...only to find out that once the plunger was pushed ALL the way to the end where it could no longer move there was no way for ANY medicine to come out.

So I have 4 needs all the same. If I push them all the way down there is not ENOUGH in them to even reach the needle tip. This leads me to believe they did the exact thing in office and didn't even inject her. It's sunday so obviously they are closed, she was seen on Thursday, and I will very much be calling them back tomorrow, very unhappy.

How can they be this incompetent? They literally did not even inject her at all. I realized she is ONLY 36-40 grams and the does for her is tiny, but to not even put enough medicine in the needle for it to come out the end it nuts to me.

Also, what is the original problem? Antibiotics don't cure "distress". What anitbiotics were prescribed? Please tell us it isn't Baytril.

In most cases the cure for whatever the problem is with a little baby tortoise is in the husbandry. 40 gram tortoise babies cannot handle injection on their already compromised little systems.

Is Dorothy a box turtle? What species? There is an art to starting baby box turtles and getting them to survive. One of our more experienced box turtle keeping members can offer tips better than I could.

 

[wellington]

What test did they do to determine antibiotics were needed?
A reptile vet is better then one that's not, but if they have little to no tortoise experience then that's not good.

 

[torty6]

I presume it was Fortum they gave? If so did you defrost it before injecting? It only takes moments holding it tightly the warmth from your hand will defrost. Because she is tiny it would only be a small dose.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

This seems to be relatively common. Vets prescribing antibiotics as a "shotgun" approach to treatment for something thst they don't understand or were unable to diagnose

 

[COmtnLady]

You may be really lucky that it didn't work. Until you have the info as to exactly what the problem is, its better to not make it any worse.

Can you share more specifics? What species are you talking about, weight/size, symptoms, whatever else you can share? What is the antibiotic? What else did the Vet tell you to do (like soaking or dry bedding or feed something specific, tempuature of habitat, etc.)?

Did this Vet come recommended by someone you know who also has tortoises, or did you just find them in the phonebook/a Google search?

Most Vets don't know enough about tortoises and turtles to safely administer anything to them, despite them claiming to be reptile Vets. You would be better to consult the years of experience here, especially before you inject something possibly-lethal-despite-the-Vet's-good-intentions.

A perfect example here is:
The vet in the next town east, claims to know turtles and tortoises, yet keeps one (that he rescued from some kids kicking it down the street like a soccer ball) in a ten gallon aquarium with artificial turf on the floor of it, no actual substrate whatsoever, the aquarium light that came with the tank is on all day, no heater, no concern about getting enough UVB to avoid metabolic bone disease, a plastic plant for looks, and as far as I can tell only feeds it pellets. The lady at the desk is particularly snotty if you try to discuss any of the situation/care with her, and the Vet is too busy to listen, or too "knowledgeable". Yup, definitely a reptile expert. ( These are the same people, who, when I took a very mellow kitty in with failing kidneys, got all freaked out saying the cat was vicious, because they were looking at the wrong chart. Needless to say, I don't go there for any of my critters anymore.)


.

 

[BoxyDorothy]

The injections are ceftazadime, for unspecified infection, yes we dethawed them it took all of 20 seconds. Suspected a disturbance in her substrate, they did not indicate respiratory issue. She developed swollen eyes, lethargy, and quit eating quit suddenly.

We had previously changed to coconut fiber substrate with some spagnum for moisture. The coconut ended up being extremely fine particles, even with keeping it damp, it was basically dust and I believe the issue developed from there. It would just be all over he if she go in/out of her water dish(shallow terracotta dish). I changed it to a larger fir bark this weekend. No dust, she can still burrow, not too small where she would eat it.

She has proper lighting 24 inch in hood light, 75 watt heat lamp, cool side, warm side 85 -90 max degrees, humidity around 50, outdoors(supervised), gets her soaks, was a voracious eater up until a couple weeks ago, however she will not eat any vegetation. She loves her live food and would come out for treats anytime we passed her tank. She even started getting chunky (hard to imagine at 40 grams, but yes), so I made sure we stopped over feeding. We supplement with mazuri and some vitamins+ calcium. We’ve had her since October and she has done amazing up until this incident.

We treated at home for 2 weeks but she was extremely lethargic and needed help. She was receiving vitamin A eye drops and now she has ciprofloxacin from the vet.

She received b12 and hydration in office as well. Waiting on her stool sample, she’s barely eating so nothings happening. She did however eat a worm on her own last night and gave me some SASS with the tweezers.

 

[BoxyDorothy]

I presume it was Fortum they gave? If so did you defrost it before injecting? It only takes moments holding it tightly the warmth from your hand will defrost. Because she is tiny it would only be a small dose.

Ciprofloxacin, Did this, it was thawed in literal seconds. Pushed the plunger to remove air and to get the dose ready and the plunger was all the way to the end with zero liquid at the needle.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Do you have an update? Did you get a hold of the vet?

 

[BoxyDorothy]

Do you have an update? Did you get a hold of the vet?

We took her back yesterday, they tried saying maybe the liquid came out or evaporated etc. IMO there wasn’t enough to begin with having to fill the reservoir and the needle tip, having such a tiny dose for a tiny lil baby. They will be administering the injections, they added saline to the dose so she will get it but again that will slightly dilute it. She goes back Friday morning then again Monday and Friday for injection. Hopefully they don’t do more damage.

She has been opening her eyes more but I haven’t been home for 8 hours to check on her.

 

[mark1]

shes opening her eyes more and started to eat? what damage did the vet do?

i've had box turtles quite awhile, they seldom eat vegetation....imo, vegetation found in their stomachs is mostly a by-product of eating worms bugs fruit off the ground..... find a good fish or turtle pellet food (softened) that you can get her eating.

when the dose was pulled into the syringe the needle is full, accounted for... it should then be pulled back to clear the needle before freezing, you should also pull in some more air after it's thawed to make sure the needle is clear, tap so all the solution is away from the needle before pushing out the air.....

as far as seeing a turtle first visit that is obviously ill and prescribing an antibiotic, that is how it works, turtles, dogs, cats, people....... a good doctor takes a good guess, and if it doesn't improve, then you start racking up the bills......

ceftazidime is kept frozen, ciprofloxacin never........

 

[BoxyDorothy]

shes opening her eyes more and started to eat? what damage did the vet do?

i've had box turtles quite awhile, they seldom eat vegetation....imo, vegetation found in their stomachs is mostly a by-product of eating worms bugs fruit off the ground..... find a good fish or turtle pellet food (softened) that you can get her eating.

when the dose was pulled into the syringe the needle is full, accounted for... it should then be pulled back to clear the needle before freezing, you should also pull in some more air after it's thawed to make sure the needle is clear, tap so all the solution is away from the needle before pushing out the air.....

as far as seeing a turtle first visit that is obviously ill and prescribing an antibiotic, that is how it works, turtles, dogs, cats, people....... a good doctor takes a good guess, and if it doesn't improve, then you start racking up the bills......

ceftazidime is kept frozen, ciprofloxacin never........

Correct on the freezing, I just wrote the wrong one, the cipro are the eye drops. She went in for a final ceftazidme injection this morning, she is not improving. Thankfully not any worse however.

We are starting Baytril, very tiny dose, she’s only 36 grams. Got cultures for bacteria and mycoplasma. So waiting on those. Fecal parasite was negative.

Gave her shots for b12, calcium, and subcu fluids today.

She just wants to sleep, not interested in food. Eyes look a little better, the inner eye lids don’t seem as irritated. But she isn’t really opening them.

I’m not sure what else to do. Do we try another vet if nothing improves in the next 2 weeks? There’s only so much you can do to a turtle that size.

I’d it was just the not eating I would get it, they can go through phases, but it’s the lethargy and putfy eyes. She is also making little peeps and squeaks when you pick her up, she never did that when healthy. Not like a hiss. I have noticed her doing some mouth breathing as well.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Baytril shouldn't be given to tortoises because of it's side effects. It can even lead to death. Baytril injections need to stop immediately. @Tom

 

[mark1]

baytril may be the only on label antibiotic there is for reptiles..... i doubt there is an antibiotic with a longer history of use, more studied, or used more..... the tortoise has been diagnosed with mycoplasma, what would be the preferred antibiotic for this? has any member of this forum actually had a tortoise killed by baytril?? i personally use to keep vials of it on hand....... it's obviously a painful injection......

 

[BoxyDorothy]

baytril may be the only on label antibiotic there is for reptiles..... i doubt there is an antibiotic with a longer history of use, more studied, or used more..... the tortoise has been diagnosed with mycoplasma, what would be the preferred antibiotic for this? has any member of this forum actually had a tortoise killed by baytril?? i personally use to keep vials of it on hand....... it's obviously a painful injection......

We opted for oral, she’s had enough shots. She’s prescribed .01 ml, haven’t started use yet as my husband took her to the vet this morning and I plan to administer the dose when I get home. I’m not sure the concentration yet, but I assume a diluted 2.5% for her weight. I’ll check the bottle/instructions when I get there.

I am aware of side effects, however it’s been several weeks and she has not improved. And we need to try something different.

 

[Tom]

This is a husbandry problem. All the vet visits and injections will not fix this and will likely make it worse.

Baby box turtles need a warm, damp environment with lots of plants, leaf litter and hiding places. Humidity needs to be 80% or higher. Closed chambers work best.

The bark is fine, but I prefer coir for these. To keep it less messy, you have to keep it damp and firmly hand pack it. If it is kept loose and fluffy, then it will dry out and get dusty. I doubt that is what caused this problem.

Do you have a UV bulb over the enclosure?

@Yvonne G Can you share your box turtle baby keeping secrets?

 

[mark1]

this is a box turtle? i would use ceftazidime injectable, i doubt it's mycoplasma..... the baytril rant got my attention, i should have went back and read the other post.... i wouldn't use baytril unless it was necessary...... mycoplasma never appeared to me to be very common in any turtles i've had........ i would agree husbandry is a big deal...... i keep baby box turtles in soaking wet sphagnum moss, deep enough they can completely bury themselves..... with a hot end at 90F and a cold end 75F.... ceftazidime injections are a lot less stressful than trying to get something oral down there throats.......

thats all they need

 

[BoxyDorothy]

Recommendation for a top quality thermostat/humidity guage. something with Wi-Fi would be great.

 

[BoxyDorothy]

this is a box turtle? i would use ceftazidime injectable, i doubt it's mycoplasma..... the baytril rant got my attention, i should have went back and read the other post.... i wouldn't use baytril unless it was necessary...... mycoplasma never appeared to me to be very common in any turtles i've had........ i would agree husbandry is a big deal...... i keep baby box turtles in soaking wet sphagnum moss, deep enough they can completely bury themselves..... with a hot end at 90F and a cold end 75F.... ceftazidime injections are a lot less stressful than trying to get something oral down there throats.......

thats all they need

Yes UV- I believe a repti-sun T5. 24inch or so