Most Common Adult Size for American PP and PB?

[diamondbp]

I was just curious if any leopard experts know FOR SURE of the average size of adult pardalis pardalis and adult pardalis babcocki?

I was just doing my usual tortoise browsing (nerd stuff) and I saw on turtlesource that he stated this

"The“giant”of the Leopard Tortoises, reaching lengths of up to 33 inches, and weights over 100 pound"

Is this for real? Of course I know they are larger than their babcocki counterparts but do they really reach 33 inces long??!

I've yet to see any pictures of pardalis pardalis that large. Most pictures I have seen look like adults between 20-25 inches tops. I understand most are young adults in America, but is there any reliable information confirming a possible size of 33 inches?

I've seen the pictures of the giant babcocki from Ethopia that are more than impressive, but have yet to see it with p.pardalis from the South.

Any help from the experts on this topic would be appreciated. I was just shocked at how large turtlesource claimed the PPs to get!

 

[Tom]

I'm no expert, but I've never seen a pp that big. The largest I've seen were decades old and maybe 26" tops. It looks like the Ethiopians might come closer to that mark, but I have only seen those in pictures. None of those pictures showed what I would estimate as a 33" leopard, but they were certainly larger than a "normal" leopard. When I was in South Africa I did see one giant leopard tortoise and he was very dark in color like the pp. No one knew his origin, it seems. Apparently he had always just been there. I would estimate him at 28" and well over 100 pounds. No where near 33".

 

[ben awes]

I've never seen any PP that big either. My female is 10 years and is just over 17". She sprinted to 15" and then slowed down considerably. she continues to grow, just at a much slower pace at this point. I would also be interested to hear about other adults. Who out there has one over 20"? I think that is pretty rare even.

I was just curious if any leopard experts know FOR SURE of the average size of adult pardalis pardalis and adult pardalis babcocki?

I was just doing my usual tortoise browsing (nerd stuff) and I saw on turtlesource that he stated this

"The“giant”of the Leopard Tortoises, reaching lengths of up to 33 inches, and weights over 100 pound"

Is this for real? Of course I know they are larger than their babcocki counterparts but do they really reach 33 inces long??!

I've yet to see any pictures of pardalis pardalis that large. Most pictures I have seen look like adults between 20-25 inches tops. I understand most are young adults in America, but is there any reliable information confirming a possible size of 33 inches?

I've seen the pictures of the giant babcocki from Ethopia that are more than impressive, but have yet to see it with p.pardalis from the South.

Any help from the experts on this topic would be appreciated. I was just shocked at how large turtlesource claimed the PPs to get!

 

[diamondbp]

I've never seen any PP that big either. My female is 10 years and is just over 17". She sprinted to 15" and then slowed down considerably. she continues to grow, just at a much slower pace at this point. I would also be interested to hear about other adults. Who out there has one over 20"? I think that is pretty rare even.

I was just curious if any leopard experts know FOR SURE of the average size of adult pardalis pardalis and adult pardalis babcocki?

I was just doing my usual tortoise browsing (nerd stuff) and I saw on turtlesource that he stated this

"The“giant”of the Leopard Tortoises, reaching lengths of up to 33 inches, and weights over 100 pound"

Is this for real? Of course I know they are larger than their babcocki counterparts but do they really reach 33 inces long??!

I've yet to see any pictures of pardalis pardalis that large. Most pictures I have seen look like adults between 20-25 inches tops. I understand most are young adults in America, but is there any reliable information confirming a possible size of 33 inches?

I've seen the pictures of the giant babcocki from Ethopia that are more than impressive, but have yet to see it with p.pardalis from the South.

Any help from the experts on this topic would be appreciated. I was just shocked at how large turtlesource claimed the PPs to get!

I've seen your beautiful female before! She is lovely. But you're right, I've seen several between 17-23 or so inches. But never beyond that.
I've seen babcocki females on the market that were above 16 inches. So it really makes me wonder if all the p.pardalis available on the market aren't really hybrids at least to some extint. I have six young P.pardalis, and they are noticably different from the babcocki, but I have also seen some P.pardalis that were very different from whats commonly offered as p.pardalis.

For instance VegasLeopards(a TFO member) has a very young p.pardalis that looks very different from the other p.pardalis of most of our members.

It's all a little confusing to say the least, especially for someone who isn't an expert.

I would like to think that the PPs I have now are 100% p.pardalis, but who knows if that could be determined with total certainty.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

I seem to recall, and a long term expert may yay or nay this, please do, to have read that only 50 South African GPPs were allowed in to the US back in 1990 or 91. I wonder how many of those acclimated and of those how many are still out there? And of those, how many were male or female? Seems like GPPs males are at a huge premium and seriously unavailable. Porque? why? Is the diapause period, or the incubation, something that produces more females than males? Lack of GPP males seem to be why we have so many mixes out there. I suspect many, many, many, lots, if not most all - dare I say from gut instinct, 90% - of the leopards are hybrids. I, for me, no matter. I sure do love mine and think the tutti frutti effect is great since mine will always only be pets in my garden. But for the good of the species, I do hope and am grateful that there are some folks with true blue certifiable GPPs that will keep that GPP-ness intact. Just do not charge GPP prices for GPP mixes because that is neither cool, nor right. Otherwise, love them all. Mine are 75 percenters so that is where I come from. I adore mine as is because they are like the Little Prince and his rose, they are all mine to care for and host. And I have never seen anything larger, male or female, than 18-20 inches, tops. And usually the males are much smaller than the females.

 

[jshaw9_]

My male 'PP' possibly 'hybrid' is 4 1/2 years old weight fluctuates between 2.2kg and 2.3kg and has been for last 6months, length is 8 1/2 inch. Was on poor diet before I got him. Gotta look at it in the sense that not all animals/mammals/reptiles etc grow the same. Some brilliant chat on the forum of late!!

 

[diamondbp]

I seem to recall, and a long term expert may yay or nay this, please do, to have read that only 50 South African GPPs were allowed in to the US back in 1990 or 91. I wonder how many of those acclimated and of those how many are still out there? And of those, how many were male or female? Seems like GPPs males are at a huge premium and seriously unavailable. Porque? why? Is the diapause period, or the incubation, something that produces more females than males? Lack of GPP males seem to be why we have so many mixes out there. I suspect many, many, many, lots, if not most all - dare I say from gut instinct, 90% - of the leopards are hybrids. I, for me, no matter. I sure do love mine and think the tutti frutti effect is great since mine will always only be pets in my garden. But for the good of the species, I do hope and am grateful that there are some folks with true blue certifiable GPPs that will keep that GPP-ness intact. Just do not charge GPP prices for GPP mixes because that is neither cool, nor right. Otherwise, love them all. Mine are 75 percenters so that is where I come from. I adore mine as is because they are like the Little Prince and his rose, they are all mine to care for and host. And I have never seen anything larger, male or female, than 18-20 inches, tops. And usually the males are much smaller than the females.

I've heard that same story of the USA pardalis pardalis and their origins. It sounds legit and likely to be the case. I just haven't seen any pictures of these original adults and how large they actually are? You would think their would be some pictures of these giant leopards floating around somewheres, but I haven't run across them. I have run across some roughly a decade old, but none twenty plus years old.
It's just strange to me that one a few occassions, some of the P.pardalis seen are much MUCH different than other P.pardalis on the market. I think a great example of this is Vegasleopards group. The lone baby she got from a local breeder looks nothing like (in my opinion) the other common P.P. on the market. I think its gorgeous and totally unique! Maybe they can chime in here with whatever info they might have on that unique little booger

 

[Tom]

I would like to think that the PPs I have now are 100% p.pardalis, but who knows if that could be determined with total certainty.

Can you tell us the source? Maybe in a PM?

---

My guy got 10 from the batch that Bee Bee mentioned. I have posted pics of some of those WC from that batch and some of their older offspring too. Don't remember where now.

 

[diamondbp]

I would like to think that the PPs I have now are 100% p.pardalis, but who knows if that could be determined with total certainty.

Can you tell us the source? Maybe in a PM?

All of my P.Pardalis come from either Ben Seigel Reptiles(2), Woodysreptiles(2), & Arizona tortoise compound (2). I've confirmed that all come from the same original stock by inquiring in the past who the source was. I know the breeder's name that supplies each company but was asked in the past to not release their name. But most people who have been on the leopard scene awhile have heard of him. It seems the majority of the P.Pardalis available originate from him.

 

[Tom]

That sounds like my guy. I'm not sure that ALL of the pp in circulation today didn't originally come from him. He's been producing babies since the 90s.

 

[diamondbp]

That sounds like my guy. I'm not sure that ALL of the pp in circulation today didn't originally come from him. He's been producing babies since the 90s.

We you ever able to see the size of his adults? Male size? female size?

It seems in the wild photos of south african leopards that the males can obtain a larger size than the females, but all the captive ones I've seen the males have been much smaller

 

[ben awes]

I am sure I got mine from the same original stock as well.

There is no doubt to me that there is a difference between Gpp and Gpb. Just look at them. Even if they are not different subspecies technically, they are different. That being said, as a breeder, there can be a fair amount of variation in how they look, even from the same clutch. That does not make them hybrid.

Years ago I tried to start of national list of Leopards to track growth, weight, diet, etc. I did not really know what i was doing, but I still thought that gathering the data would be useful to have available. there was, and remains, so little actual data on size, growth rate, etc. I contacted everyone I knew who had leopards at time time and found tremendous resistance to revealing anything about their adults. It was kinda weird. One person told me that they would not give out that info for fear of theft.

I prefer all the openness, makes for better owners and breeders. I was led to believe when I got into it that leopards easily get to 50-60 pounds or more and 24". That has not been my experience so far. If that was true, we would be seeing these animals around. Maybe it takes 30-40 years, and maybe all the folks that have these are keeping them ALL under wraps, but I am observing growth rates, and its going to take a heck of a long time for mine to get there!

great conversation, btw!

That sounds like my guy. I'm not sure that ALL of the pp in circulation today didn't originally come from him. He's been producing babies since the 90s.

We you ever able to see the size of his adults? Male size? female size?

It seems in the wild photos of south african leopards that the males can obtain a larger size than the females, but all the captive ones I've seen the males have been much smaller

 

[Tom]

That sounds like my guy. I'm not sure that ALL of the pp in circulation today didn't originally come from him. He's been producing babies since the 90s.

We you ever able to see the size of his adults? Male size? female size?

It seems in the wild photos of south african leopards that the males can obtain a larger size than the females, but all the captive ones I've seen the males have been much smaller

Yes. I did see all the adults and I have pictures. I'm traveling cross country right now, but remind me and I will email or post some.

And we also have a relatively new member that managed to get some of these original imports and he's posted several pics of his too. Can't remember the username...

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

I think it was TortsRUs, Adam? And yes-yes, please post and share pics when you can Tom.
The mysterious, magical GPP-50-in-the-90s journey ... where are they now? Anyone? anyone? Bueller?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Tom, the user with the new pp is Torts R Us. He is the one who bred my Levi

 

[diamondbp]

such good info coming together! I look forward to the pics Tom and thankyou for the info. TortsRus please chime in

 

[diamondbp]

Ones I had saved on my phone which I "think" TortsRUs had posted weeks back

 

[wellington]

Wow, nice looking torts.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Too bad that there was no registry when they came into the country in the 90's, like what they did with pot belly pigs for instance, so that the lineage could be traced. Bummers. But yep, that's them. In all their original import splendor. Love.A.Lot. We will have to ask him but I think, once again, more girls than boyz, that these are all females. I wonder if the males are more vulnerable. Or? I have heard of several GPP males that died. I, of course, suspect and wonder if there have been med side effects that caused death. These leopards are magical. Good save diamondbp. : )

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The OP's original question is sorta not ever going to be answered.

The subject title and the question in the first post are different. "Common adult size" and "average adult size" are different things. Especially for animals that never stop growing.

First by defining adult we would need to agree what that means, I think that usually means reproductively viable, YES?

Male reach this in ability at a smaller size than females, but as females may not be receptive, they may not be able to mate larger females. Females need to be larger for leopards to meet the viability criteria.

Second, and at the risk of repeating some little bit of science and turning your ears off, subspecies and individuals from along a cline, or from different regions (populations) are not "hybrids".

Nature selects as well as people, and these traits, size, spot pattern, flaring of marginals etc, are selected traits in nature, but hardly a hard blueprint for the outcome of single or even multiple generation success for any given population, especially for long term low production species like tortoises.

Before genes were used in phylogenies all kinds of what now might be considered crazy ideas were propagated for taxonomy (the naming of animals) and systematics (the relative position in evolutionary lineages of animals).

So, average adult size could be determined by population, captive or wild, by measuring many, and determining which were adults and then using simple statistics to report the average size of adults for that population.

Most common adult size would skew that number up or down based on the age and attrition in that population. If smaller adults were selectively predated on, they will be less common, if larger adults are selectively preyed upon they will be less common, so common adult size is different.

Maximum size is often reported as a measure of what is possible, not always likely. No real way to secure information of smallest adult size, but it can be called smallest "know" adult size based on the earlier criteria I used as to what an adult is in the first place.

Southern South African leopard tortoises have been found at over 80 pounds. That is an common size for an adult female sulcata.