Mud turtles and UVB?

Blake Barber

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Mud and musk turtles get a lot ad their D3 from diet. They do also use uvb but more in a floating style basking. UVB does penetrate water quite well. Hanging in plants near the sorface or in shallow water they will stretch their neck and front legs to absorb. Just as we've discussed with tortoises, a few hours a week of good exposure is enough uvb
UVB penetrates water????thats news to me ...can you cut the source of this information???
 

Blake Barber

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UVB penetrates water????thats news to me ...can you cut the source of this information???
I mean not more than a few inches from everything I’ve read and that’s natural solar uvb...to say that uvb penetrates water in a captive environment, it would have to match natural outdoor solar potency and I know of no way to accomplish this with readily available lighting options...in fact I’ve even heard it said that the recommendation of 12 hours a day as the time for shining your uvb light on your turtle is basically equivalent to 20 minutes of actual sunlight generated uvb....so the difference is not only measurable...it’s extremely substantial ...but if additional info is available to counter this is Love to read it
 

Markw84

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UVB penetrates water????thats news to me ...can you cut the source of this information???
The longer the wavelength, the quicker water stops penetration. As any scuba diver has noticed, red light, the longer visible wavelength, disappears from the spectrum just a few feet from the surface. Then orange a bit farther, then greens and finally only blue light. The shorter the wavelength, the further it can penetrate water. UV is shorter wavelengths than blue light. It actually penetrates water quite well. There is a slight reversal where the very short UVB does not penetrate quite as well as UVA, however. But generally, UV penetrates water to about 10M or 30 ft. At 40 ft. there is only 1% of the UV still detectible.

Often, especially on warmer days, I will see some of my turtles laying on the bottom of my pond with their legs totally stretched out with toes expanded in basking style. No need for the heat, so the bottom of the pond becomes a favorite basking spot.

Having said this, the amount of organic material suspended in the water will indeed start filtering UV quickly. SO when there is a plankton bloom in the ocean, or in fresh water lakes and rivers - if there is more organic matter suspended in the water - the UV will be filtered much more quickly. In a clean aquarium, where we are talking about keeping mud turtles, the UV will have no problem reaching the bottom of the tank.
 

fritz269

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you can use strong velcro or screw in hook strews that can be easily and patched. they also make stands that are for uvb light but might be pricer. if he is willing to pay, go expensive, if you pay go on the cheap/
 

Blake Barber

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This is interesting info as far as natural sunlight is concerned but I’m not sure it jives with what we know about the vast inferiority of artificial UV versus sunlight...but if this is accurate and mind you IF ( it’s the only time ever that I’ve ever heard this posited in reference to artificial UV)and I’ve read articles that do not necessarily support the information given here in regards to natural UV ...one thing though that was in common is the fact that the amount of uv that penetrates,and how far is a wild variable based on many conditional factors...BUT I’m actually hoping I can substantiate this as far as the suggestions made about UV penetration in the tank and prove it true because it would literally turn the entire hobby on its head and maybe even stimulate veterinary advances in how we understand captive instances of mbd...because the most common culprit is said to be not enough uvb exposure (and its connection to calcium/D3 deficiency)and if this level of penetration is achievable then with the exception of shell rot and other fungal issues ...basking under a uv lamp would be completely unnecessary ...and I personally could breathe a sigh of relief as I have two of the most anti bask western spiny softies on the planet and I stay concerned about shell health (even though I’ve had zero issues with them )and this could explain why...thanks for the response markw84 ...I’m definitely gonna look into this
 

Blake Barber

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So just a heads up:I’m by no means finished with my research but In a scan of roughly ten different sites I have found nothing but information in direct conflict with the idea that artificial UV penetrates to the bottom of the tank,but it occurs to me now that you didn’t say artificial I just figured you wer referring to this source of UV due to the fact you said “aquariums “in reference to where we’d be keeping mud turtles...so clarification is needed I guess...but if you’re talking about artificial UV lamps commonly available for captive/pet reptiles...it’s not looking good for the theory of penetration...but I’m crossing my fingers because in thirty years I’ve never heard such a claim and I was around for the introduction of the first available UV lighting the hobby had ever seen...I just don’t think it’s gonna prove to be an accurate statement...and btw...If organic materials are major dissipating factors...I’d say aquariums can not possibly be considered “clean”when it comes to organic materials...the cleanest enclosure you will have ever seen would still be a veritable biohazard compared to natural, running water ...fresh or marine ...hence the emphasis put on massively over filtering and rigorous cleaning schedules...small closed environments with waste producing are never in effect “clean”
But I’m still looking for information and you’ve given me a lot to think about!!!thanks again!
 

Blake Barber

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So obviously I was being a little sarcastic before in regards to the absolute manner in which it was asserted that UV light would have e no problem penetrating to the bottom of a “clean”aquarium...but I was truly intrigued by the theory and the fact that part of said theory was supported by the afore posted scientific data on the subject...but we need to all be clear here about what is possible,or even somewhat likely because the health and lives of the animals we are keeping is at stake and we cannot afford assumptions or “seems reasonable”mind frames...we have to deal with reality...So after literally spending most of the night to the early hours of the morning researching to find any thing that would support the idea that commonly available artificial UV light sources can penetrate to the bottom of the water in the average or any for that matter aquarium that is used to keep an aquatic turtle and based on the fact it while I am no certified or college educated herpetologist or reptile veterinarian I am also know Ricky to this hobby and have been engaged in the care and keeping Aquatic turtles since I was 10 years old giving me around 30 to 31 years of experience, time spent constantly learning, with multiple failures and successes along the way...That’s a first I would address the information about the characteristics of UV light produced by natural sun exposure... all of this data seems relatively accurate yet highly conditional... The level to which UV light penetrates through water whether it be marine or fresh, is highly dependent on a wildly very set of conditional circumstances at the same time of the very next day that readings were taken TV penetration can be completely different than the previous day organic particulates ,algae blooms on me there’s just no end to the variables … It’s so to suggest that the UV produced by your reptile ultraviolet lighting would have no issues penetrating to the bottom of your tank based on readings taken in relationship to natural sunlight while I feel that possibility is extremely interesting and would be an absolutely wonderful discovery it is simply not supported by anything that could be cold concrete scientific data, Including the determinations most of the major well-known UV lighting manufacturers... the sun is the most prolific source of energy in th natural world....it can and has rendered large portions of this planet completely uninhabitable due to the relentless exposure to its punishing rays... there exists nothing in the reptile hobby and practically nothing on planet earth that is capable of re-creating the purity and potency of ulta -violet wavelegths Produced by the sun...I am currently attempting to rehab a common musk turtle for mbd as well as deep shell rot and the cause of these maladies,as determined by a skilled herpvet ,were that the little guy refused to bask and dry of under either the basking lamp OR the all in one uv/heat lamp the previous owner provided...instead spending all of his time in the water on the bottom of the tank ...where little to NO UV penetration occurs with the use of artificial uv lighting...and this is happened EVEN with calcium and D3 supplements and so is also contradictory to the idea that these types of turtles do not need uvb to synthesize certain nutrients and. An derive all that they need from diet...I am waiting for a response from HAGEN the makers of all of exo terra’s Lighting about this subject and I will post their response ...but for the sake of not providing false or inaccurate information that could lead to the harm of innocent creatures and the dismay of well meaning keepers...I have to call bs (with all due respect)on the idea of water penetrating UV being produced by reptile lighting fixtures and bulbs...as always I am open minded and excited to learn something new even if it proves me wrong because it’s not about me it’s about the creatures we all hold dear and we all want the best for them,so if any data exists that I have overlooked by all means share it ...but we have to share facts verifiable...good luck!!!
 

Blake Barber

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So obviously I was being a little sarcastic before in regards to the absolute manner in which it was asserted that UV light would have e no problem penetrating to the bottom of a “clean”aquarium...but I was truly intrigued by the theory and the fact that part of said theory was supported by the afore posted scientific data on the subject...but we need to all be clear here about what is possible,or even somewhat likely because the health and lives of the animals we are keeping is at stake and we cannot afford assumptions or “seems reasonable”mind frames...we have to deal with reality...So after literally spending most of the night to the early hours of the morning researching to find any thing that would support the idea that commonly available artificial UV light sources can penetrate to the bottom of the water in the average or any for that matter aquarium that is used to keep an aquatic turtle and based on the fact it while I am no certified or college educated herpetologist or reptile veterinarian I am also know Ricky to this hobby and have been engaged in the care and keeping Aquatic turtles since I was 10 years old giving me around 30 to 31 years of experience, time spent constantly learning, with multiple failures and successes along the way...That’s a first I would address the information about the characteristics of UV light produced by natural sun exposure... all of this data seems relatively accurate yet highly conditional... The level to which UV light penetrates through water whether it be marine or fresh, is highly dependent on a wildly very set of conditional circumstances at the same time of the very next day that readings were taken TV penetration can be completely different than the previous day organic particulates ,algae blooms on me there’s just no end to the variables … It’s so to suggest that the UV produced by your reptile ultraviolet lighting would have no issues penetrating to the bottom of your tank based on readings taken in relationship to natural sunlight while I feel that possibility is extremely interesting and would be an absolutely wonderful discovery it is simply not supported by anything that could be cold concrete scientific data, Including the determinations most of the major well-known UV lighting manufacturers... the sun is the most prolific source of energy in th natural world....it can and has rendered large portions of this planet completely uninhabitable due to the relentless exposure to its punishing rays... there exists nothing in the reptile hobby and practically nothing on planet earth that is capable of re-creating the purity and potency of ulta -violet wavelegths Produced by the sun...I am currently attempting to rehab a common musk turtle for mbd as well as deep shell rot and the cause of these maladies,as determined by a skilled herpvet ,were that the little guy refused to bask and dry of under either the basking lamp OR the all in one uv/heat lamp the previous owner provided...instead spending all of his time in the water on the bottom of the tank ...where little to NO UV penetration occurs with the use of artificial uv lighting...and this is happened EVEN with calcium and D3 supplements and so is also contradictory to the idea that these types of turtles do not need uvb to synthesize certain nutrients and. An derive all that they need from diet...I am waiting for a response from HAGEN the makers of all of exo terra’s Lighting about this subject and I will post their response ...but for the sake of not providing false or inaccurate information that could lead to the harm of innocent creatures and the dismay of well meaning keepers...I have to call bs (with all due respect)on the idea of water penetrating UV being produced by reptile lighting fixtures and bulbs...as always I am open minded and excited to learn something new even if it proves me wrong because it’s not about me it’s about the creatures we all hold dear and we all want the best for them,so if any data exists that I have overlooked by all means share it ...but we have to share facts verifiable...good luck!!!









Caren Arsenault (Hagen Customer Service Rep)7/24/2018
Dear Blake,

Please see the reply I received back from our Reptile Product Specialist:





"Jury is still out. There has been no truly comprehensive study made on how much UV (A or B) is reflected or blocked from penetrating the water column. We do know that 100% certainly does not penetrate, so when choosing or orienting UVB lighting, care should be made to make sure the turtle has access to the light as though the water doesn’t exist at all (i.e. imagine the water surface being the floor of the terrarium, and anything below the water would be underground."

Thank you,

Caren

This is from the the company that actually does the research and development and manufacturing of all of exo terra’s Lighting...it is in direct response to an email I sent inquiring of the validity of claims that artificial UV lighting will penetrate to the bottom of an aquarium...as you can see the idea one way or another hasn’t been definitively established...BUT ...what is clear is that even this leading manufacturer of reptile pet hobby lighting is NOT supportive of anyone thinking their pet is receiving its UV needs by way of water penetration
 

Markw84

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@Blake Barber I will reply here for the sake of others reading this as many are indeed interested in proper UVB exposure and one of the things you say is correct - there is practically no specific research on how this all effects chelonians. However, once you revert to "calling BS" - that term implies I have a willful attempt to pass information off that I know is false to try to fool others, or simply pass off information with no knowledge of it being accurate or not. I am happy to discuss concepts/information and application to chelonians, but do not want to get into personal attacks.

You seem to feel the reply above is a definitive answer. I have found over the years that most of the experts in specific fields have little knowledge at all on how their product or findings actually apply to chelonians. I have conversed with nutritional PHDs working for reptile food manufacturers who will tell you too much protein leads to pyramiding. Curators of reptiles at major zoos that maintain that sulcatas need dry conditions or they will get repiratory problems. UV bulb engineers designing bulbs for better UVB production that have no idea how much UVB a turtle actually requires. Etc, etc.

I have found the best information and best practices from people actually keeping turtles and tortoises for years, with focus on just those chelonians. Experience on what works. The hard scientific data is really not "hard". It is simply pieces to the puzzle. How and if it applies to chelonians very often takes a greater and broader range of experience specifically with chelonians than the expert in that field possesses.

I look at the reply of the product specialist above and wonder why they have never at least took at UVB meter and placed it in water and took some readings. I have. With artificial light and with sunlight. More importantly I have raised 100's of turtles for well over 50 years now and have experimented with all types of UVB exposure - from none to artificial to sunlight to see differences.

UVB does penetrate water. "Artificially" produced UVB does penetrate water. Certainly not 100% of it as there is reflection and minerals/organics in the water that can effect penetration. But we can provide UVB to a turtle that does not bask and still get a usable amount of UVB at the bottom of tank for a mud turtle as set up as the OP has.

Just to give some evidence that it seems bulb manufacturers have not bother to do... here is my solarmeter 6.5 with teh sensor in 6" of water under a 24" T5 Arcadia bulb. The plastic of the baggie I used to protect the meter is filtering about 33% of the UVB just by placing the meter in the baggie. But you can still see a reading of 1.3 UVI 6" deep in the aquarium. That would equate to a reading of 2.0 or so without the baggie. As discussed earlier, mud and musk turtles normally do bask near the surface hanging in plants or in very shallow water - certainly less than 6" deep. They do not need to be out on a basking platform to get all the UVB they need for D3 production. This does not even go into dietary vitamin D and if they even need UVB for proper bone development. All the "non-basking preference" turtles are also more highly carnivorous where they indeed can get a good amount of vitamin D from diet.

IMG_0365.JPG
 
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So...this is all very interesting. But going back to the original question, can mud turtles be healthy without UVB? Like, has anyone ever raised a "healthy" mud turtle without the use of UVB? And if so, what (if anything) was necessary to compensate for the lack of UVB?

Don't get me wrong, the question of how much and how deep UVB penetrates into water (and how much that actually translates into a benefit for the turtle) is a really interesting one. But I'm sort of thinking that a lot of turtle owners haven't used UVB. So there ought to be plenty of cases of mud turtles being raised without UVB. If they all turn out unhealthy, then I think that's a better answer to whether or not mud turtles can be healthy without UVB.

Are there any cases of people successfully raising healthy mud turtles without the use of UVB?
 

mark1

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it appears to me , sunlight, natural and artificial, has important physiological functions beyond d3 production ……..
 

Blake Barber

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@Markw84 ,I must apologize for my apparent offensive language...never did I intend to insinuate anything “willfully “damaging was occurring ...I was simply countering your point ,which while very interesting (which I believe I said multiple times)isn’t supportable with any hard data... My term “bs”was used in good humor and just to make sure no confusion existed I typed “with all due respect “which as I understand are also just words and without the conveyance of true intent mean nothing and for this I am truly sorry...your points were and are still very interesting and articulately posited and without question offer a differential to this topic that has its uses ..if only for getting people to do their ow proactive research to add to their own understanding...I am certainly no expert at least not by conventional measures... but as a construction professional specializing in the more finite and artistic aspect of interior finish work I know that the rank of “expert“ conveyed up on those whose experience is primarily of an academic or one dimensional scope, And is often times not nearly as deserves as it would be the stowed upon the worker in the field who does more than sift through mathematical formula and compile study data but who puts his hands on the medium understands his streaks and weaknesses and limitations understands there are things that can be done outside of conventional knowledge ,conversely things that are considered foundational by convention that may not necessarily be practically applicable enough to be considered the blanket statement that they are...and so the term expert is relative and over used and under conveyed... I cannot agree with you more in your assertion that true knowledge comes from experience and hands-on real world life experience is the single best classroom from which to refine ones knowledge I base my know how on three decades of experience and in that time one thing I have come to know is that everything we think we know means nothing in the right (or wrong )situation...solar meters are notorious unreliable at any grade of product the average consumer has access to...the same meter will give completely different readings from one day or hour to the next in the exact same scenario...is yours guilty of this flaw???i can’t say and would honestly think that you have achieved this result multiple times before using it as factor that supports your theory.so I’ve no reason to doubt you...I can only say that I every single Florida subspecies specimen I have ever observed in the wild has been basking...truly basking ...completely removed from the water,head and extremities extended for maximum exposure...no different that pond cooters...just as my captive common Musk Turtle does almost daily. The very first turtle I ever caught as a child that essentially began the passion that I have for these animals was in eastern mud turtle caught in Crawfordville Georgia in a small slough that connected two large lakes...off of a fallen tree he was using as a basking log...I also know that while all turtles are generally considered omnivorous,there are certain species considered more carnivorous than others and these individuals are said to have adapted less of a need for uv synthesis of vitamins than more veggie leaning species... I also know all of these so called carnivorous species are much more prone to bask in the wild than in captivity softies,snappers even alligator snappers are all seen basking by anyone who knows where to look. There’s much debate as to whether this practice is nearly for thermal regulation or is for UV exposure but if you consider the differences in strength between artificial UV and natural sunlight it is not difficult to imagine both are at play in this instinctive behavior for these “carnivorous“ species I believe it was stated in my earlier comments but 15 to 20 minutes of exposure to natural sunlight two or three times a week exposes an animal to more UVB wavelengths than a seven day week of twelve hour days a of year four artificial uvb exposure… So going off of the idea that the carnivorous species need less UVB or taking that a step further and going off of the theory that they need no UV exposure to synthesize vitamin D and absorb calcium...so the reality is this:no substantive information to exist as a difitive truth that carnivorous turtles require no UV for dietary needs...this is theory and conjectures of the highest order and by that I mean there is a lot that suggest this MIGHT be the case...and so as theories go...it’s not a bad one however...there is also a great deal of actually behavioral evidence to suggest that while they may not do it as frequently as pls fix turtles and other basking turtles...softies,snappers AND mud /musk turtles bask often enough in the wild to form a working theory that counters that they do not require uvb...perhaps they do not require as much or for the exact same reasons...but it can notnand should not be said in an absolute that they do require uvb...the notion that captive turtles reflect the behavior of a species is not only completely false but absurd when you think about all of the vast differences in the world vs an aquarium...inside around sounds smells and creatures that would not be present in a natural habitat...we just don’t know...and the most generally accepted idea is this:
Most ALL diurnal reptiles require uvb exposure on some levels or another snakes being the only scientifically accepted exception...can a mud turtle or a snapping turtle survive indoors without a uvb source? yeah at least for a little while...but I have personally seen soft shell turtles and alligator snappers with mbd that were fed supplementary diets and had no uvb is this in and if itself difinitive???of course not ...but why take the chance????you must remember these forums are scanned by non members and new inexperienced members every day multiple times a day...and passing this kind of information off as irrefutable fact is running the risk of having a comment taken out of context or seen as fact absolute by a “newbie”that could result in improper care...you say experience is the hallmark of practical knowledge and in a lot of ways I agree...but even you ...who claim to have hundreds of turtles under your belt...(turtle farmer??)and fifty years experience have posted a photo of what I can only assume is your enclosure or one of your enclosures at the turtle farm(I’m kidding).that shows small stones or gravel that most keepers recognize as very hazardous to turtles ...I’m not saying that in any way presents a negative imagine but that experience is only valuable is it’s fluid and not locked up like some fanatical dogma...and I’ll close....my first store bought turtle was purchased at a pre Walmart era general typenstire in Georgia called Rich Way.. in 1983.she was a red rated slider named Samantha and she lives in a twenty gallon tank her entire life with me though she grew to the size of a small plate...me being a child being totally ill equipped and uninformed as to the prop r care and needs of this animal and the fact that this predated artificial uv lighting by a long time (more than a decade )is what ultimately led to sams untimely death...even in n these dismal condition,in a very small tank with no filters,no heater,no light of any kind andnin the fluctuating temperatures of a north Georgia basement she lived seven years and was puppy like tame...following me around the house and only me and sitting quietly on my lap while I did my homework....without a doubt the majority of poor sams needs were NOT met yet for seven years she seemed perfectly happy and healthy...and suddenly without warning,.i awoke one morning to find her dead...I was devastated...a few years later ,.being the astute child l was I used my save allowances to huy a field guide for reptile health and realized how horrible of a life I had given my best friend Sam the turtle...so we know some things and we presume others and some more things still we feel strongly COULD be accurate...I prefer to go with what nature shows me and the things we KNOW ...there is no reason to question whether certain turtles need uvb or not anymore than we need to question uv penetration under water ...no turtle basks under water ...even when float basking they usually have their head and tips if carapaces exposed....it’s a theory you have and if you choose to hold to it and it seems to work for you ...Great for you...doesn’t make you the mud turtle guru nor does it justify you sharing your experience as anything other than just that ...your experience....not sustainable and supportable ,across the board facts...I mean You presumably insinuate that one of the worlds largest manufacturers of artificial uv lighting is less qualified than yourself because you have a picture of a cheap solar meter in a sandwich bag in a dirty tank ...and I say it’s not worth the risk when it costs under fifty bucks to have all the lighting in it could possibly need!! I have five grand in just ONE of my setups ...get the lights folks ...it’s an easy enough thing to do ....good luck to all...thank you for your response...I respectfully disagree with you on almost everything you’ve said but only because of the designation you’ve given your words ...good luck to you
 
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So, to summarize, the answer to the question of "can mud turtles be healthy without UVB" is "we don't know."

Is that pretty much correct?
 

mark1

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So, to summarize, the answer to the question of "can mud turtles be healthy without UVB" is "we don't know."

Is that pretty much correct?

i'm of the opinion , no ...... at least not as long as that same animal would live with proper lighting ......... reptile lives , from what i've seen revolve around the sun , even mud turtles , i've seen them sunning on logs since i was a kid ....... not many , if any cave dwelling reptiles , or completely nocturnal reptiles ..............
 

Blake Barber

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So listen this is actually very simple to say that we know something separates it from something that maybe we feel strongly about or strongly agree with or think it’s perhaps an interesting concept warranting further examination… It’s one thing to offhandedly and brazenly say ,” I know for a fact Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player that ever lived “when you claim your opinion ,either well-informed and learned or not, as a fact in matters of very little consequences such as who is the greatest basketball player of all times (which by the way WAS Michael Jordan hands-down on LeBron‘s best day ,he is no Michael Jordan...Sorry back on track…The underlying consequence of such a statement will likely be nothing more than a heated debate with someone who passionately disagrees with you. However with this subject at hand is the care and well-being of a living creature for who we have taken responsibility to essentially become the “master of its universe“ and that we have taken it upon ourselves to provide every single lead that creature has to live a healthy and happy life as it pertains to what we “know “ not think or feel, but KNOW... no I want to make sure that there’s no misunderstandings hear the original poster that inspired my comments is likely as caring and experienced and knowledgeable a keeper as he claims to be...I have no reason to think otherwise and it is not my normal pattern to immediately attempt to see the worst in people ,I generally look for the good in everyone I encounter and this no different … So when I referred to his solar meter as cheap and his tank dirty, I meant in no way to question his competence or ability or fitness to properly care for his turtles nor did I literally mean that his solar meter was “cheap “I have no earthly idea how much he paid for it because it or if it’s a quality piece of equipment or not…The purpose of my comments were in reference to the suggestion that his “opinions” about UVB lighting and Bud/musk turtles was substantiated by the claim of five decades of experience and the raising of literally hundreds of turtles… So the point I was attempting to make pointing out things like the gravel in the photo ,the absolute reliance on a consumer grade piece of equipment the likes of which are known to be in accurate, and less than perfect rank cleanliness was to show that while experience is indeed the most practically applicable form of education it certainly does not mean that a person becomes a fountain a facts or should see by themselves or be seen by others as a definitive source of righteous truth...(nor am I suggesting that this is the mindset of the member my comments were inspired by...it’s just an observation)Because as seen here even someone with 50 years experience and the raising of hundreds of turtles under his belt can’t be guilty of having a less than perfectly clean enclosure, with items inside that some might consider inappropriate … And gods know were you to check my enclosures right now you would undoubtedly discover an algae spot or two on the glass perhaps even a crumb or two of organic material that could be easily removed... in spite of being a very caring, responsible, knowledgeable and detail oriented keeper ,I am also a father to six children have three dogs ,three cats, two ferrets one pedigreed rat named,”Christmas”and three bullfrogs named “Bud” “,Wie”and “Ser”... and as the maintenance of the 10 different enclosures that house the turtles falls squarely on my shoulders I would be lying and probably unconvincing if I attempted to tell you people here that every enclosure is impeccably polished at all times ...it would simply not be true ...everything is cleaned on a rotational schedule that allows me to adequately maintain each enclosure to my own standards which are,I assure, extremely high... so you see I just want to be clear that these things were NOT meant as some kind of “petty insult“ it was a very clear and direct point that I was making and that is this:experience, even though it be great and vast ,does not make your opinions crystallize into gospel truth even if they are based on a widely discussed scientific theory... the word that is most commonly referenced and that has the strongest relationship to the word “theory“ is the word “proof“ a theory remains nothing more than a theory until it is proven by subjecting it to the extreme rigors of the scientific method and having concrete ,repeatable and consistent results that Provide enough solid evidentiary material as to designate said theory as “proven”… Then I believe, (which makes it a theory)that the best answer that can be given to this particular question is this: we don’t know for sure… There is no conclusive or hard concrete evidence that proves these types of turtles do not require UV light nor is there anything conclusive absolute as to the penetration abilities of ultraviolet light through water as there are as many variables attached to this particular query as there are stars in the sky … What we do know is that mud mask turtles or sometimes a bit shy, even more so than other turtles, which could impede upon their instinct or desire to bask( for whatever reason that they are doing it ) when raised in a closed environment in the presence of humans and all the other various sounds and activities that are attached to human life possibly even some of the sounds and vibrations emanating from the very equipment being used to keep their environments clean and hospitable… So we know much about their behavior and because we know much about their behavior we know that that behavior can vary dramatically from captive pet turtles to wild turtles… It is my “opinion“ that the care and upkeep of any animal should be founded in the natural habits of that animal when observed in the wild ...mud turtles and musk turtles in the wild are NOT aquatic animals... they are semi- aquatic animals Who can often times be observed living a little more then mud filled washouts or drainage canals with barely enough actual water to cover their marginal scales on their carapace... they are certainly not as avid a Bhasker as say a painted turtle but they are also small and more easily preyed upon due to their environment being generally less aquatic than that other species and they have probably developed a sense of an understanding for the fact that their environment affords them less protection than the painted turtle who slides off of his log at the nearest sign of danger and plummets to depths of 5,10 ,15 or even 20 feet to hide until the danger passes… Bud/musk turtles while not completely environmentally defenseless have neither the swimming ability and in most cases (not always )but in most cases , do not have deep waters to dive into if they encounter a predator while basking on land or an old fallen tree and it is very possible, as it happens with almost all species, that this has been a critical factor in the natural development of this animals habits and behavior ... so when you take this instinctive shyness and place it in a captive scenario you will definitely get a behavior differential we measured against wild specimens… So the bottom line in all of this is NOT who knows more, who is more experienced ,who has the nicest ,cleanest enclosures ...this is all completely irrelevant...Because the answer to the question as I said before is that we don’t know definitively whether or not Bud/musk turtles MUST to bask to expose themselves to UV rays...and the suggestion that they do NOT require UV for vitamin synthesis is just that ...a theory ...What we do know is that in the wild these turtles DO bask and they bask often... we also KNOW that artificially produced UV rays are terribly minuscule when compared to the capabilities of our sun and are not considered by even the people who make them as having the ability to penetrate even the shallow water of our turtle enclosures enough to adequately provide for the turtles UV needs.... so you take a combination of what we know about their wild behavior and what we can consider sound advice from even the lighting manufactures and then reference what we know or have observed about the horrors of advanced MBD and there is only one reasonable solution...Buy the light... buy the lights that produce ultraviolet rays and heat and whether or not your turtle basks for thermal regulation or a combination of thermal regulation and UV exposure ,or chooses to never bask at all (in which case you might consider dry docking the animal once a week or so to keep fungal issues at bay,but again,just my opinion)all of its potential lighting needs can be met to the simple act purchasing delights in providing in adequate sized high and dry basking area for your turtle to completely remove itself from the water if he chooses… in then regardless of the outcome you will know that you did everything within your power to ensure all the needs of this animal we’re mitt it’s far too simple an issue to be debated in this nature guys you’re going to have to buy a light anyway it’s simply standard equipment for keeping in total indoors so by the light that provides both UV and heat if you don’t want to buy multiple fixtures and bulbs .... this is so simplistic an issue that I am completely baffled as to how it has turned into such a in-depth discussion ...there’s not a person on this thread who can claim to have some omnipotent all-knowing all encompassing experience or knowledge about these animals that supersedes what they themselves do when living unperturbed and uninterrupted in their natural and wild settings I mention this earlier in this thread I am currently rehabbing a common mask turtle or stinkpot turtle who has one of the worst cases of shell rot I have ever seen and especially on a turtle of such a small size... The veterinarian that I’m working in a partnership with two attempt to save this animal has determined through scientifically sound investigative techniques, (which is a really fancy way of saying he has some questions about some things, )that this turtle was housed in a talnk that had more that adequate filtration ,but no UV lighting,inadequate heat source lighting and no basking platform...now medicine is not exact science in a lot of cases often times it is nothing more than the troubleshooting of an organisms systemic functions and the assessment of environmental factors to form a working hypothesis that gives you a place to start from when determining treatment options ...so could my veterinarian be wrong about the cause of this horrible shell rot infection ???sure I suppose he could be ...but then again I’m not suggesting that anyone should do anything based solely on the case of my rehab turtle or my herpvets diagnosis and causative determinations... i’m saying just buy the damn lights and don’t do it because I said so and don’t hesitate to do it because some other experienced keeper says it’s a necessary do it in the name of re-creating as closely as possible the natural habitat of the animal that you’re keeping micro habitation is what we’re going for here people small versions ofbthe natural works as it pertains to your pet .... and in that natural world mud/musk turtles bask in the natural world when they bask they are exposed to the ultraviolet rays of her son and for about 30 bucks you can re-create this as closely is as humanly possible and commonly available to the average consumer and there is absolutely no reason that you should not do this when it is such an easy thing to do and just might be the tiny little element that makes all the difference between life and health and suffering and death... or as I’m concerned the debates over, as far as I’m concerned there’s nothing to discuss any further beyond that it’s absurd and ridiculous that anybody would speak in opposition to doing everything that you can to re-create that animals natural environment and I can’t for the life of me figure out not only was someone would want to do that to actually go against the idea of giving these animals as closely as possible the exact same things they would have in the wild but to announce that sort of presumptive neglect on a public forum on the Internet for all to see so that it might potential influence someone who perhaps doesn’t know any better to fail to provide every single thing that they possibly could to ensure the health of their animal... just buy the damn lights guys !if the turtle never benefits one shred from the ultraviolet light never climbs on that basking area one time in its entire life with you then one of two things will happen :it will either live a long healthy happy life and you can say “maybe he didn’t need that basking platform after all” or they will often be seen basking soaking up the rays of your lights and you can say to yourself “I’m sure glad I bought that light and platform “But you will never be saying to yourself :is this my fault???if you happen to not have the light and not have the platform ,and your turtle develops an illness or deficiency that may or may not be a result of this lack of provision,you will never face this situation and wonder if you have essentially condemned this poor animal to torture and possibly death because you decides to ignore the most experienced animal keeper of them all...MOTHER NATURE...good luck guys
 

TammyJ

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2016
Messages
7,120
Location (City and/or State)
Jamaica
So listen this is actually very simple to say that we know something separates it from something that maybe we feel strongly about or strongly agree with or think it’s perhaps an interesting concept warranting further examination… It’s one thing to offhandedly and brazenly say ,” I know for a fact Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player that ever lived “when you claim your opinion ,either well-informed and learned or not, as a fact in matters of very little consequences such as who is the greatest basketball player of all times (which by the way WAS Michael Jordan hands-down on LeBron‘s best day ,he is no Michael Jordan...Sorry back on track…The underlying consequence of such a statement will likely be nothing more than a heated debate with someone who passionately disagrees with you. However with this subject at hand is the care and well-being of a living creature for who we have taken responsibility to essentially become the “master of its universe“ and that we have taken it upon ourselves to provide every single lead that creature has to live a healthy and happy life as it pertains to what we “know “ not think or feel, but KNOW... no I want to make sure that there’s no misunderstandings hear the original poster that inspired my comments is likely as caring and experienced and knowledgeable a keeper as he claims to be...I have no reason to think otherwise and it is not my normal pattern to immediately attempt to see the worst in people ,I generally look for the good in everyone I encounter and this no different … So when I referred to his solar meter as cheap and his tank dirty, I meant in no way to question his competence or ability or fitness to properly care for his turtles nor did I literally mean that his solar meter was “cheap “I have no earthly idea how much he paid for it because it or if it’s a quality piece of equipment or not…The purpose of my comments were in reference to the suggestion that his “opinions” about UVB lighting and Bud/musk turtles was substantiated by the claim of five decades of experience and the raising of literally hundreds of turtles… So the point I was attempting to make pointing out things like the gravel in the photo ,the absolute reliance on a consumer grade piece of equipment the likes of which are known to be in accurate, and less than perfect rank cleanliness was to show that while experience is indeed the most practically applicable form of education it certainly does not mean that a person becomes a fountain a facts or should see by themselves or be seen by others as a definitive source of righteous truth...(nor am I suggesting that this is the mindset of the member my comments were inspired by...it’s just an observation)Because as seen here even someone with 50 years experience and the raising of hundreds of turtles under his belt can’t be guilty of having a less than perfectly clean enclosure, with items inside that some might consider inappropriate … And gods know were you to check my enclosures right now you would undoubtedly discover an algae spot or two on the glass perhaps even a crumb or two of organic material that could be easily removed... in spite of being a very caring, responsible, knowledgeable and detail oriented keeper ,I am also a father to six children have three dogs ,three cats, two ferrets one pedigreed rat named,”Christmas”and three bullfrogs named “Bud” “,Wie”and “Ser”... and as the maintenance of the 10 different enclosures that house the turtles falls squarely on my shoulders I would be lying and probably unconvincing if I attempted to tell you people here that every enclosure is impeccably polished at all times ...it would simply not be true ...everything is cleaned on a rotational schedule that allows me to adequately maintain each enclosure to my own standards which are,I assure, extremely high... so you see I just want to be clear that these things were NOT meant as some kind of “petty insult“ it was a very clear and direct point that I was making and that is this:experience, even though it be great and vast ,does not make your opinions crystallize into gospel truth even if they are based on a widely discussed scientific theory... the word that is most commonly referenced and that has the strongest relationship to the word “theory“ is the word “proof“ a theory remains nothing more than a theory until it is proven by subjecting it to the extreme rigors of the scientific method and having concrete ,repeatable and consistent results that Provide enough solid evidentiary material as to designate said theory as “proven”… Then I believe, (which makes it a theory)that the best answer that can be given to this particular question is this: we don’t know for sure… There is no conclusive or hard concrete evidence that proves these types of turtles do not require UV light nor is there anything conclusive absolute as to the penetration abilities of ultraviolet light through water as there are as many variables attached to this particular query as there are stars in the sky … What we do know is that mud mask turtles or sometimes a bit shy, even more so than other turtles, which could impede upon their instinct or desire to bask( for whatever reason that they are doing it ) when raised in a closed environment in the presence of humans and all the other various sounds and activities that are attached to human life possibly even some of the sounds and vibrations emanating from the very equipment being used to keep their environments clean and hospitable… So we know much about their behavior and because we know much about their behavior we know that that behavior can vary dramatically from captive pet turtles to wild turtles… It is my “opinion“ that the care and upkeep of any animal should be founded in the natural habits of that animal when observed in the wild ...mud turtles and musk turtles in the wild are NOT aquatic animals... they are semi- aquatic animals Who can often times be observed living a little more then mud filled washouts or drainage canals with barely enough actual water to cover their marginal scales on their carapace... they are certainly not as avid a Bhasker as say a painted turtle but they are also small and more easily preyed upon due to their environment being generally less aquatic than that other species and they have probably developed a sense of an understanding for the fact that their environment affords them less protection than the painted turtle who slides off of his log at the nearest sign of danger and plummets to depths of 5,10 ,15 or even 20 feet to hide until the danger passes… Bud/musk turtles while not completely environmentally defenseless have neither the swimming ability and in most cases (not always )but in most cases , do not have deep waters to dive into if they encounter a predator while basking on land or an old fallen tree and it is very possible, as it happens with almost all species, that this has been a critical factor in the natural development of this animals habits and behavior ... so when you take this instinctive shyness and place it in a captive scenario you will definitely get a behavior differential we measured against wild specimens… So the bottom line in all of this is NOT who knows more, who is more experienced ,who has the nicest ,cleanest enclosures ...this is all completely irrelevant...Because the answer to the question as I said before is that we don’t know definitively whether or not Bud/musk turtles MUST to bask to expose themselves to UV rays...and the suggestion that they do NOT require UV for vitamin synthesis is just that ...a theory ...What we do know is that in the wild these turtles DO bask and they bask often... we also KNOW that artificially produced UV rays are terribly minuscule when compared to the capabilities of our sun and are not considered by even the people who make them as having the ability to penetrate even the shallow water of our turtle enclosures enough to adequately provide for the turtles UV needs.... so you take a combination of what we know about their wild behavior and what we can consider sound advice from even the lighting manufactures and then reference what we know or have observed about the horrors of advanced MBD and there is only one reasonable solution...Buy the light... buy the lights that produce ultraviolet rays and heat and whether or not your turtle basks for thermal regulation or a combination of thermal regulation and UV exposure ,or chooses to never bask at all (in which case you might consider dry docking the animal once a week or so to keep fungal issues at bay,but again,just my opinion)all of its potential lighting needs can be met to the simple act purchasing delights in providing in adequate sized high and dry basking area for your turtle to completely remove itself from the water if he chooses… in then regardless of the outcome you will know that you did everything within your power to ensure all the needs of this animal we’re mitt it’s far too simple an issue to be debated in this nature guys you’re going to have to buy a light anyway it’s simply standard equipment for keeping in total indoors so by the light that provides both UV and heat if you don’t want to buy multiple fixtures and bulbs .... this is so simplistic an issue that I am completely baffled as to how it has turned into such a in-depth discussion ...there’s not a person on this thread who can claim to have some omnipotent all-knowing all encompassing experience or knowledge about these animals that supersedes what they themselves do when living unperturbed and uninterrupted in their natural and wild settings I mention this earlier in this thread I am currently rehabbing a common mask turtle or stinkpot turtle who has one of the worst cases of shell rot I have ever seen and especially on a turtle of such a small size... The veterinarian that I’m working in a partnership with two attempt to save this animal has determined through scientifically sound investigative techniques, (which is a really fancy way of saying he has some questions about some things, )that this turtle was housed in a talnk that had more that adequate filtration ,but no UV lighting,inadequate heat source lighting and no basking platform...now medicine is not exact science in a lot of cases often times it is nothing more than the troubleshooting of an organisms systemic functions and the assessment of environmental factors to form a working hypothesis that gives you a place to start from when determining treatment options ...so could my veterinarian be wrong about the cause of this horrible shell rot infection ???sure I suppose he could be ...but then again I’m not suggesting that anyone should do anything based solely on the case of my rehab turtle or my herpvets diagnosis and causative determinations... i’m saying just buy the damn lights and don’t do it because I said so and don’t hesitate to do it because some other experienced keeper says it’s a necessary do it in the name of re-creating as closely as possible the natural habitat of the animal that you’re keeping micro habitation is what we’re going for here people small versions ofbthe natural works as it pertains to your pet .... and in that natural world mud/musk turtles bask in the natural world when they bask they are exposed to the ultraviolet rays of her son and for about 30 bucks you can re-create this as closely is as humanly possible and commonly available to the average consumer and there is absolutely no reason that you should not do this when it is such an easy thing to do and just might be the tiny little element that makes all the difference between life and health and suffering and death... or as I’m concerned the debates over, as far as I’m concerned there’s nothing to discuss any further beyond that it’s absurd and ridiculous that anybody would speak in opposition to doing everything that you can to re-create that animals natural environment and I can’t for the life of me figure out not only was someone would want to do that to actually go against the idea of giving these animals as closely as possible the exact same things they would have in the wild but to announce that sort of presumptive neglect on a public forum on the Internet for all to see so that it might potential influence someone who perhaps doesn’t know any better to fail to provide every single thing that they possibly could to ensure the health of their animal... just buy the damn lights guys !if the turtle never benefits one shred from the ultraviolet light never climbs on that basking area one time in its entire life with you then one of two things will happen :it will either live a long healthy happy life and you can say “maybe he didn’t need that basking platform after all” or they will often be seen basking soaking up the rays of your lights and you can say to yourself “I’m sure glad I bought that light and platform “But you will never be saying to yourself :is this my fault???if you happen to not have the light and not have the platform ,and your turtle develops an illness or deficiency that may or may not be a result of this lack of provision,you will never face this situation and wonder if you have essentially condemned this poor animal to torture and possibly death because you decides to ignore the most experienced animal keeper of them all...MOTHER NATURE...good luck guys
 

Blake Barber

New Member
Joined
May 29, 2018
Messages
11
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
Sorry ...but then again commonsense can’t always be convenient... this forum and others like it sre about creating a space for like-minded individuals to share experiences and information but more importantly these forums in some cases are the main source of information for new turtle owners and even some more experienced owners who encounter a never before seen issue... so that means that in a very real way the information contained on any given thread in this forum could be the difference between life or death for someone’s animal So sometimes there needs to be a little bit more information than just somebody responding to your thread by saying “find a qualified herpvet”,like some damn automated robot... i’m new to these forums but certainly not new to the hobby by any standards and sometimes I guess my passion for these animals gets the better of me and sometimes I suppose I forget that some people just simply aren’t interested or can’t handle being challenged but that’s what I think these forms are for. broad spectrum and wide angle information sometimes you can’t say that in three or four words “find a qualified herpvet”...Geez
 

TammyJ

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2016
Messages
7,120
Location (City and/or State)
Jamaica
Sorry ...but then again commonsense can’t always be convenient... this forum and others like it sre about creating a space for like-minded individuals to share experiences and information but more importantly these forums in some cases are the main source of information for new turtle owners and even some more experienced owners who encounter a never before seen issue... so that means that in a very real way the information contained on any given thread in this forum could be the difference between life or death for someone’s animal So sometimes there needs to be a little bit more information than just somebody responding to your thread by saying “find a qualified herpvet”,like some damn automated robot... i’m new to these forums but certainly not new to the hobby by any standards and sometimes I guess my passion for these animals gets the better of me and sometimes I suppose I forget that some people just simply aren’t interested or can’t handle being challenged but that’s what I think these forms are for. broad spectrum and wide angle information sometimes you can’t say that in three or four words “find a qualified herpvet”...Geez
Blake, I respect your obviously caring efforts (and your very impressive sentence construction skills), and what indeed seems to be your considerable knowledge and experience of herp keeping, but I firmly believe that "Find a Qualified Herp Vet" is excellent advice, and may in fact make the difference between life and death for someone's animal or beloved pet. As far as I have experienced it, this forum, with its many experienced and concerned, and even academically qualified, tortoise keepers, has this five-word piece of advice as perhaps one of its most wise and beneficial statements which is, and hopefully will continue to be, regularly offered to assist anxious and worried enquirers.

Ahem.:)
 

TammyJ

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2016
Messages
7,120
Location (City and/or State)
Jamaica
I have read that many mud turtles do NOT bask and that their need for UVB is significantly less that other turtles (which does NOT make a lot of sense to me, actually).
I do NOT have a UVB light set up on my mud turtle's tank (long story) but was OK with that since I knew she was getting vitamin D from her Hikari Sinking Wafers. But now I'm giving her more and more "real" food and she is increasingly reluctant to eat her sinking wafers.

SO the question is: can a mud turtle be healthy WITHOUT UVB light or a vitamin D supplement?

Advice is greatly appreciated!

(Just so you know, I want to hang a UVB light from the wall but hubby does NOT want holes drilled in the wall. That seems silly to me, but I've been surprised about how strongly he feels about this. o_O)
How is Jacques doing these days? Absolutely love that turtle!:<3::)
 

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