My first winter while she is so active

LeopardPickle

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Jeffersonville
I am genuinely asking… please keep unrelated comments about what you think I am doing wrong to yourself. I am not an expert but I do really try my absolute best to take care of my girl :)

My female leopard tortoise is 2 years and 7 months old. She weighs 1,605 grams and is 8 inches long. This past warm season (Kentucky) was the first time I gave her outdoor time. I “tortoise proofed” my backyard and strapped a tile to her as a backup plan. Almost every day, I would give her some exploring time. Sometimes my workweek would be busy, and I missed days in a row, but she got plenty of time outside almost every week. I was surprised by how much walking she did. I had plenty of hideouts outside for her, but she never used them. Instead, we kept our grass a little taller, and she spent the whole time walking all around the grassy area. It has gotten cold here, so I stopped bringing her outside about a month ago; I didn’t think it would be an issue as the winter before I kept her in her enclosure. Cleaning it was so easy. I’d find a nice big poop, I’d use my scooper and scoop it into the trash, and that was the end of it. I found maintaining her enclosure easy as long as I kept up on it.

Here is my problem, now she paces. She will poop somewhere, then she walks her entire enclosure multiple times. She ends up walking through her poop and literally spreading it seemingly everywhere. Along the walls are poop marks (sometimes it looks like something out of a horror scene lol)… like constant poop marks where her legs (covered in poop) were scratching along the edges. I have tried to “clean” this with a toothbrush… but keeping her pen clean has actually been a challenge.

Questions:
1
. So for her health, how concerned should I be over her getting enough exercise during my winter (about 5 months)? And for my own sanity with keeping her pen clean. I know her natural habitat doesn’t go through a “winter season,” so how do I ensure my winter season doesn’t affect her care/health?

2. A couple of days ago, I took her hideout and other plants out of her enclosure because she was knocking them around. I was too nervous about keeping them in there as I kept finding them alarmingly close, or sometimes under, her main heat lamp (the red heat lamp just keeps her water source somewhat warm—my vet approved this). Until she stops pacing like this, can I keep such little hideout stuff in her enclosure? Or if not, what do you recommend? May I can try putting a plant at the cool end of her enclosure?

3. Will her growth slow down with less exercise? I noticed when I started taking her outside for exercise, she started growing faster than before. She turned two this past March (2021) and weighed 831 grams. I think it wasn't until about May maybe that I got her on a solid routine of outside time... her weight since:
June: 1,020 grams
August:1,284 grams
October:1,605 grams
She has put on almost 800 grams in 7 months. She got pneumonia in her first year of life… so anytime I think she is acting lethargic I panic and take her to the vet which we all know is costly. If she is not getting outdoor time, is it natural for her to become more docile?

Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. I am a nervous nelly when it comes to Pickle; I’m always worried about messing something up.

Thanks!!!
-Alexandra
 

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Tom

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I am genuinely asking… please keep unrelated comments about what you think I am doing wrong to yourself. I am not an expert but I do really try my absolute best to take care of my girl :)
The above quoted sentence is a bad start. This is a red flag that you know you are doing things wrong, and only want to be told what you want to hear. That's not fair to ask of us. When we see something wrong, we are going to say something. We are all here because we care about the well being of tortoises and want to help people and their tortoises. We will not attack or insult you, but we will mention problems that we see with the good intention of helping you avoid disaster.

Right along with what I just said, you are on the verge or killing your tortoise and burning your whole house down. Do you really want me to let you learn that lesson the hard way? If your answer is yes, then you've come to the wrong place. Close your account and stop reading now. If you don't want to learn the hard way, at the cost of burning down everything you own, then hang those heat lamps from above. The clamps ALWAYS fail. Best case, you get broken glass in the enclosure and a cold tortoise. Worst case, pull up to your house engulfed in flames while the FD tries to stop the inferno from spreading to your neighbors home. NEVER trust those clamps. Always hang the fixtures from over head. Many here have learned this lesson the hard way, including me. You don't have to.

About your pooping concerns: Smeared poop all over the place is unsanitary and it is a problem. The best solution is frequent long warm soaks. This will make the tortoise poop in the soaks and empty out. It has the added benefit of keeping the tortoise well hydrated.

You might also consider what you are offering for food. With a good high fiber diet the poop should be pretty innocuous and easy to clean. With a diet of low fiber grocery store greens, things will be a lot messier.

Next thing: Vets don't know much about tortoise care. They read and learn from the same wrong info that most everyone else does. Unless you've found us here. Red heat lamps are a no go. Use a CHE instead. Does the same thing, only better and with no bothersome colored light.

Your questions:
1. Keep her warm. With an open topped enclosure, that means keeping that whole room warm. For next year, you will probably need a whole room to house her indoors for 5-6 months.
2. Mount hides and plants so they can't be moved. Sometimes a heavy paving stone on top of the hide is enough to hold it in place. Screw plant pots to the floor and then refill them. All tortoises do this. This is why indoor housing is difficult for larger species.
3. This behavior is common with the indoor/outdoor routine. Slowing down in winter is normal. Being "antsy" when kept indoors is normal. She will settle down in time.
Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. I am a nervous nelly when it comes to Pickle; I’m always worried about messing something up.
This last quoted bit is the opposite of the first quoted bit. We can't do this with out going against the first comment in your post. You can relax. You are among friends. We all want to see healthy tortoises and happy tortoise keepers. You won't be attacked here. We don't allow it.
 

LeopardPickle

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Wow dude, first off. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions. Having someone jump down my throat was exactly what I was hoping to avoid.

These types of forms are most needed by people like me, who need the advice of people with a lot more experience and knowledge. But what I have found when I decide to try one again is some high-horse long-time blogger belittling me and what feels like attacking. Rereading my first thread, yes you are right, probably not the best way to start off when asking for help, but you could have gone about explaining that to me in such a more mature manner. Instead, I got told that I was on the verge of killing my tortoise who I obviously care very much about, that I was not only going to burn my house down but also my neighbor's house as well, that I can't trust my exotic reptile vet, that apparently I think I am a know-it-all...and basically that I should delete my account. Then I finally get into some useful advice (thank you), but of course the ending was another slam.

My other advice for you would be to ask questions instead of just assuming someone doesn't know or do something. I thought that is how these forums were supposed to go. I give her a warm soak every day, sometimes she does poop in them but not always. Her poop is not runny, it's very easy to clean up when she hasn't walked through it a bunch. Once again, my problem was her walking through her poop (but you assumed that it could be poor diet or lack of warm soaks)... if you had asked, I would have happily told you about her diet and soaking routine.

I will take your advice on the bulb I use to keep her water warm. If you had asked, I would have told you that I asked my vet about getting a lamp high above the water dish to keep it warm. I am the inexperienced one who choose to use the red light (Idk why I just thought that was a good option). My vet did not recommend that type of bulb. But moving forward I will switch to the CHE.

While I think your dramatic response about my clamp lights was over the top (also if you had asked if they were always turned in as much as they are in the photo I would have told you I was moving stuff around in her pen and always turn them in like that while fiddling around)... I do think you have a good point and for safety reasons, I will look into mounting hanging lights.

I also like your idea about mounting her hideout down, that seems to be a very valid solution for my problem.

Finally, thank you for telling me it's normal for her to be antsy for a bit while she settles into her normal routine. I don’t see why you had to start off in the manner you did when you could have just gotten straight to the useful advice that you had at the end.

By the way, the first bit of what you said completely contradicts the very next paragraph.

My advice for you, understand that you may be the expert, but if you truly care about people’s tortoises, you’d understand that you need to learn some better people/manner skills. Because no matter how much you can help people care for their tortoises, people will listen better when you respect them more.

This type of response (well it might be well-intentioned) often drives away new members who need the advice the most. This has been a disappointing experience.
 

Jan A

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Boulder, CO
Wow dude, first off. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions. Having someone jump down my throat was exactly what I was hoping to avoid.

These types of forms are most needed by people like me, who need the advice of people with a lot more experience and knowledge. But what I have found when I decide to try one again is some high-horse long-time blogger belittling me and what feels like attacking. Rereading my first thread, yes you are right, probably not the best way to start off when asking for help, but you could have gone about explaining that to me in such a more mature manner. Instead, I got told that I was on the verge of killing my tortoise who I obviously care very much about, that I was not only going to burn my house down but also my neighbor's house as well, that I can't trust my exotic reptile vet, that apparently I think I am a know-it-all...and basically that I should delete my account. Then I finally get into some useful advice (thank you), but of course the ending was another slam.

My other advice for you would be to ask questions instead of just assuming someone doesn't know or do something. I thought that is how these forums were supposed to go. I give her a warm soak every day, sometimes she does poop in them but not always. Her poop is not runny, it's very easy to clean up when she hasn't walked through it a bunch. Once again, my problem was her walking through her poop (but you assumed that it could be poor diet or lack of warm soaks)... if you had asked, I would have happily told you about her diet and soaking routine.

I will take your advice on the bulb I use to keep her water warm. If you had asked, I would have told you that I asked my vet about getting a lamp high above the water dish to keep it warm. I am the inexperienced one who choose to use the red light (Idk why I just thought that was a good option). My vet did not recommend that type of bulb. But moving forward I will switch to the CHE.

While I think your dramatic response about my clamp lights was over the top (also if you had asked if they were always turned in as much as they are in the photo I would have told you I was moving stuff around in her pen and always turn them in like that while fiddling around)... I do think you have a good point and for safety reasons, I will look into mounting hanging lights.

I also like your idea about mounting her hideout down, that seems to be a very valid solution for my problem.

Finally, thank you for telling me it's normal for her to be antsy for a bit while she settles into her normal routine. I don’t see why you had to start off in the manner you did when you could have just gotten straight to the useful advice that you had at the end.

By the way, the first bit of what you said completely contradicts the very next paragraph.

My advice for you, understand that you may be the expert, but if you truly care about people’s tortoises, you’d understand that you need to learn some better people/manner skills. Because no matter how much you can help people care for their tortoises, people will listen better when you respect them more.

This type of response (well it might be well-intentioned) often drives away new members who need the advice the most. This has been a disappointing experience.
IF you want honest advice based on experience, tested results, debate, & research, then this forum is a great resource. Use it or abuse it--that's your choice.

Everything Tom OR almost anyone else on this forum who answers questions & issues does it based on THEIR experience & knowledge & yes, often their personal opinion

Generally, a tort's "misbehavior" is more often than not a reaction to his/her enclosure or something it's owner is doing or not doing. So yes, we are going to question your care or point out what is not working. YOU asked.

Give more information, ask more questions or don't.
 

bluRose09

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The op said they didn’t want “unrelated comments”. They never said no criticism. I totally understand where they are coming from. This forum has members who are passionate about tortoise care. In their enthusiasm to educate, their answers frequently come across as very condescending. I have come to realize this isn’t the intent. It potentially turns people away. In the last week or so I have also noticed people trying to tone down their answers which I appreciate. I have never felt comfortable enough to ask a question here. I just look through the old threads. I even hesitated to post where I purchased incandescent bulbs in Ca because of the potential response.
Remember, we are all here for the same thing (tortoises!) and there are 2 sides to a coin. One side can be more aware of the tone of their response and the other can realize it is meant as constructive criticism.
 

Mrs.Jennifer

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I don’t usually wade in on matters that are not “post a caresheet level,” but I will say this—

I‘m not sure what your experience with other online sources have been, but here, years of knowledge and experience are revered. If people come truly seeking knowledge, they will learn a great deal. If people are “coachable,” their tortoises will benefit a great deal. If an individual is not interested in wholistic feedback, then they will be disappointed. The experts here do not myopically focus in on one aspect of a tortoise’s husbandry. While it may seem unnecessary to you, they respond to the entirety of the situation. I’m truly sorry if you are disappointed in your experience here. I agree that responders being sensitive is helpful, but being able to accept coaching is vital.
 

LeopardPickle

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Jennifer, I appreciate your thoughts and found your points insightful. I have only been on one other forum, where I didn't even make a post... because it seemed to be controlled by a dominating group of bloggers... I heard really good things about this forum and was beyond excited to try it...

I had honestly not thought of the fact you pointed out, which experts don't focus on one aspect of the tortoise husbandry--seems obvious I know, but truly something I had not thought of until I was told so. New members or any other members shouldn't be belittled for not having knowledge or experience. I thought that was the whole point was coming to a place and being honest about where you are and learn from others. Not ganged up on because I said something from lack of experience.

I didn't even realize my comment was off-putting until someone pointed it out, and then I was like okay you're right. But then another well-known member still had to chime in to belittle me even further (which was quite immature).

The only point I wish to continue making an effort on is this unsaid status that these experts can act like bullies just because they are well respected for their knowledge and experience. You said yourself, "being coachable is vital," does this not apply to these experts? These respected experts shouldn't be given a "pass" to disrespect people. If they were willing to truly take this feedback, they might end up helping a lot more tortoises in the end. There are A LOT of members on here who are afraid to ask questions for interactions exactly like this one. If these experts want to help more tortoises, don't attack people who just don't know how things work yet.

You mentioned being coachable in your response, you don't have to answer this but, were you advising me to be more coachable? I am genuinely asking... in my response to Tom, I told him where he was right, said thank you, pointed out my own mistakes..... I feel like that is the definition of being coachable. Where you advising me to be more coachable? If standing their ground and calling someone out on acting immature and disrespectful (after acknowledging their own mistakes) makes them not coachable...then this forum is exactly like the other one.

Long-time experts shouldn't belittle new members (unless that person is truly being disrespectful). If someone is going to take the time to write a post about me burning my house down, my neighbor's house, killing my tortoise, etc. then they clearly were willing to spend the additional time to respond to that person's post... instead of belittling a new member, why not write out an educational reply on how things are done around here (as simple as you did). Seriously, I found your reply quite insightful as a new member. Why not copy that paragraph as a template, and then when people say stuff like I did, just paste it in there. Boom, a solution to that problem. If the OP responds disrespectfully, then they deserve whatever comes their way. But it should not be a standard that revered members can be so easily set off and say such unnecessary personal attacks.
 

LeopardPickle

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I don’t usually wade in on matters that are not “post a caresheet level,” but I will say this—

I‘m not sure what your experience with other online sources have been, but here, years of knowledge and experience are revered. If people come truly seeking knowledge, they will learn a great deal. If people are “coachable,” their tortoises will benefit a great deal. If an individual is not interested in wholistic feedback, then they will be disappointed. The experts here do not myopically focus in on one aspect of a tortoise’s husbandry. While it may seem unnecessary to you, they respond to the entirety of the situation. I’m truly sorry if you are disappointed in your experience here. I agree that responders being sensitive is helpful, but being able to accept coaching is vital.
Jennifer, I appreciate your thoughts and found your points insightful. I have only been on one other forum, where I didn't even make a post... because it seemed to be controlled by a dominating group of bloggers... I heard really good things about this forum and was beyond excited to try it...

I had honestly not thought of the fact you pointed out, which experts don't focus on one aspect of the tortoise husbandry--seems obvious I know, but truly something I had not thought of until I was told so. New members or any other members shouldn't be belittled for not having knowledge or experience. I thought that was the whole point was coming to a place and being honest about where you are and learn from others. Not ganged up on because I said something from lack of experience.

I didn't even realize my comment was off-putting until someone pointed it out, and then I was like okay you're right. But then another well-known member still had to chime in to belittle me even further (which was quite immature).

The only point I wish to continue making an effort on is this unsaid status that these experts can act like bullies just because they are well respected for their knowledge and experience. You said yourself, "being coachable is vital," does this not apply to these experts? These respected experts shouldn't be given a "pass" to disrespect people. If they were willing to truly take this feedback, they might end up helping a lot more tortoises in the end. There are A LOT of members on here who are afraid to ask questions for interactions exactly like this one. If these experts want to help more tortoises, don't attack people who just don't know how things work yet.

You mentioned being coachable in your response, you don't have to answer this but, were you advising me to be more coachable? I am genuinely asking... in my response to Tom, I told him where he was right, said thank you, pointed out my own mistakes..... I feel like that is the definition of being coachable. Where you advising me to be more coachable? If standing their ground and calling someone out on acting immature and disrespectful (after acknowledging their own mistakes) makes them not coachable...then this forum is exactly like the other one.

Long-time experts shouldn't belittle new members (unless that person is truly being disrespectful). If someone is going to take the time to write a post about me burning my house down, my neighbor's house, killing my tortoise, etc. then they clearly were willing to spend the additional time to respond to that person's post... instead of belittling a new member, why not write out an educational reply on how things are done around here (as simple as you did). Seriously, I found your reply quite insightful as a new member. Why not copy that paragraph as a template, and then when people say stuff like I did, just paste it in there. Boom, a solution to that problem. If the OP responds disrespectfully, then they deserve whatever comes their way. But it should not be a standard that revered members can be so easily set off and say such unnecessary personal attacks.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
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Jennifer, I appreciate your thoughts and found your points insightful. I have only been on one other forum, where I didn't even make a post... because it seemed to be controlled by a dominating group of bloggers... I heard really good things about this forum and was beyond excited to try it...

I had honestly not thought of the fact you pointed out, which experts don't focus on one aspect of the tortoise husbandry--seems obvious I know, but truly something I had not thought of until I was told so. New members or any other members shouldn't be belittled for not having knowledge or experience. I thought that was the whole point was coming to a place and being honest about where you are and learn from others. Not ganged up on because I said something from lack of experience.

I didn't even realize my comment was off-putting until someone pointed it out, and then I was like okay you're right. But then another well-known member still had to chime in to belittle me even further (which was quite immature).

The only point I wish to continue making an effort on is this unsaid status that these experts can act like bullies just because they are well respected for their knowledge and experience. You said yourself, "being coachable is vital," does this not apply to these experts? These respected experts shouldn't be given a "pass" to disrespect people. If they were willing to truly take this feedback, they might end up helping a lot more tortoises in the end. There are A LOT of members on here who are afraid to ask questions for interactions exactly like this one. If these experts want to help more tortoises, don't attack people who just don't know how things work yet.

You mentioned being coachable in your response, you don't have to answer this but, were you advising me to be more coachable? I am genuinely asking... in my response to Tom, I told him where he was right, said thank you, pointed out my own mistakes..... I feel like that is the definition of being coachable. Where you advising me to be more coachable? If standing their ground and calling someone out on acting immature and disrespectful (after acknowledging their own mistakes) makes them not coachable...then this forum is exactly like the other one.

Long-time experts shouldn't belittle new members (unless that person is truly being disrespectful). If someone is going to take the time to write a post about me burning my house down, my neighbor's house, killing my tortoise, etc. then they clearly were willing to spend the additional time to respond to that person's post... instead of belittling a new member, why not write out an educational reply on how things are done around here (as simple as you did). Seriously, I found your reply quite insightful as a new member. Why not copy that paragraph as a template, and then when people say stuff like I did, just paste it in there. Boom, a solution to that problem. If the OP responds disrespectfully, then they deserve whatever comes their way. But it should not be a standard that revered members can be so easily set off and say such unnecessary personal attacks.
You were not belittled or disrespected. That is the problem. You came in expecting to be blasted. You told the fox not to throw you in the briar patch. What did you think the fox would do? You are being way to sensitive.

I told you about burning your house down because that is EXACTLY what happens when people use those clamp lamps that way. It is in no way overly dramatic. Its reality. Fires happen every day all over the country from reptile heating bulbs. You are upset because I don't want that to happen to you?

I didn't tell you anything about whether or not you were/are feeding your tortoise correctly. I only offered info to give you insight about the effects of the typically seen low fiber grocery store green diets, vs. higher fiber diets. I made no supposition about what you were feeding, because I don't know. I know that my leopard tortoises don't have poops that can smear because they are full of grass fibers. You made it sound like your tortoise's poops are more smearable.

Either way, lighten up. You are way too sensitive and nobody needs this drama. This is a public forum. There are all kinds of personalities here. Tone cannot be discerned from written text. My tone is NOT condescending toward you. I was trying to help solve your problem, and prevent a catastrophe in your home. Nobody here wants to hurt your feelings or upset you. Let's move on. What's your next question or topic of tortoise conversation. You've got a great looking leopard tortoise, and the growth rate indicates that your feeding and care routine agree with your tort. How about we talk about that instead?
 

Maggie3fan

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Damn it Tom...it's You're welcome...
Oh and Tom is not being dramatic about the clamp lights...I have almost 20 years experience and a few months ago my tort shed had a fire because the clamp failed and the che fell onto the plywood floor and caught fire. Seriously hang it! or risk fire...
 

MsParedes

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Rereading my first thread, yes you are right, probably not the best way to start off when asking for help, but you could have gone about explaining that to me in such a more mature manner.
I am surprised and had to read this twice because I don't think Tom said anything rude.

It took me 20 years of raising my 2 sulcatas WRONG, to find this group, and the education and entertainment have been invaluable.
People on this forum have seen lots of good and bad, so sharing their insites is serious to them.
I don't think you will find "warm and fuzzy" and "experience and knowledge" in the same place.
Pick one.
 

LeopardPickle

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Oh and Tom is not being dramatic about the clamp lights...I have almost 20 years experience and a few months ago my tort shed had a fire because the clamp failed and the che fell onto the plywood floor and caught fire. Seriously hang it! or risk fire...
Maggie, I am going to implement all of the advice Tom gave me. It was very solid advice. Once again, I am not making an effort to disprove any advice he gave nor the importance of it. I was making effort to explain that more people will benefit from (Tom’s) advice if he didn’t come across in what seemed to be condescending from the start. Yes, this is my interpretation of his written text. But you’d have to be ignoring the obvious to say that I don’t have a point. There was already another new member who stated “ I have never felt comfortable enough to ask a question here. I just look through the old threads. I even hesitated to post where I purchased incandescent bulbs in Ca because of the potential response.”

Once again, Tom is tortoise brilliant, I never said otherwise. Clearly a valuable resource for me to ask questions and get direction from. All I am saying is it would benefit more people if he was a bit more aware of how his responses come across (particularly new members), I’m not talking about the advice, when reading through the advice sentences, they are perfect, but I felt like there is extra (unnecessary) slams added at the beginning and ending of his communication to me.

Whether or not he wants to admit it, the manner he (and some others) intimidates the inexperienced leading to them not asking the questions they need.

I have made no attempt to slam, discredit, or insult Tom. Only to communicate my experience of this interaction as a new member. That is all I am trying to point out, and I keep getting responses from people with facts about why Tom is right and I am wrong. What I am trying to say, is that I don’t know why people keep arguing the Tom is right and I am wrong when I have already said, Tom is right, here is my feedback to make things better moving forward for us inexperienced members—there are two completely different focal points. This is to my point, it feels like people are ganging up or bullying, while that is not the intention, it comes across that way. Again, just feedback to make new members (who need the advice the most) more comfortable asking questions, because whether or not the well-known members will admit it, this is something hindering how even more successful this form could be.

If I may, respectfully, if I am the only one willing to grow from this experience, that is saying something.

Paredes, you have proved my point even more so. Why does it have to be "hang" or get out? Why can't people on both sides be willing to be a little open to the other's point of view? if so, it would lead to more people asking for the invaluable advice these experts have to offer.
 

TheLastGreen

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I think this is a huge misunderstanding. Tom cares a lot for tortoises. He used emotive language because he cared for your tort and spoke from past experience.

It is intimidating to be wrong or to have questions, but I believe it can even be scary at times!
You took the first leap to care for your tort and to ask questions, which is already a good sign.
Tom (I am not trying to speak on his behalf) was just trying to say that sometimes things that are wrong, or not even at topic, which are noticed should be fixed.

It is is good to have a tort in good conditions. But tuning things to perfection can make your tort do even better than the good care you give it.

(Tom has been looking after sulcatas and leopards for decades, and has admit to mistakes that he made, to help others, and himself continue and better what is the infinte journey of tortoise husbandry)

Let us not let what we love, divide us.
 

LeopardPickle

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I think this is a huge misunderstanding. Tom cares a lot for tortoises. He used emotive language because he cared for your tort and spoke from past experience.

It is intimidating to be wrong or to have questions, but I believe it can even be scary at times!
You took the first leap to care for your tort and to ask questions, which is already a good sign.
Tom (I am not trying to speak on his behalf) was just trying to say that sometimes things that are wrong, or not even at topic, which are noticed should be fixed.

It is is good to have a tort in good conditions. But tuning things to perfection can make your tort do even better than the good care you give it.

(Tom has been looking after sulcatas and leopards for decades, and has admit to mistakes that he made, to help others, and himself continue and better what is the infinte journey of tortoise husbandry)

Let us not let what we love, divide us.
TheLastGreen, I agree that this turned into something it need not be. I take my ownership in taking what he said too personally at first, I have never had a problem admitting to my faults. But I hope he and others can see what I am trying to explain about new members being afraid to ask questions.

While I, as a new member, might be too sensitive, and I will work on not taking things so personally moving forward. I think the value Tom provides would reach more people if he was a little more sensitive and aware of how he might come across. Even if something is well-intentioned, if not communicated properly, loses value along the way.
 

TheLastGreen

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Joined
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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
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Tom provides would reach more people if he was a little more sensitive and aware of how he might come across. Even if something is well-intentioned, if not communicated properly, loses value along the way.
I think this is the problem you perceive.
Sometimes people need the hard reality. Some people won't change something if it isn't that bad. When it comes to torts every member here cares, and will give it straight like that. No talking around the bush or emphasise something unjustly.
Can your house burn down perhaps? The chance be it 1% or 100%, is still a chance it could happen so it is better to change it for incase.

Even if something is well-intentioned, if not communicated properly, loses value along the way.
This is the difficult part, I am from a place where some people care for torts wrong. (ENTIRELY) Feeding them only porridge (be it maize or whatever) and lettuce. Leaving them outside 24/7/365.
We don't know anything about your care. Be it good (which it is) or bad and to any caring tort person, it could give you a heart attack when you read the first part of your message, where it feels to us that you might be unwilling to change. So we may emphasize something to get the point across.

In the end we all only care and I hope you find the trove of knowledge on this forum useful!
 

Humbug & Maz

Active Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
120
Location (City and/or State)
Chesterfield UK
I am a new member and also felt a little out of my depth when I first posted as I was embarrassed that I could be duped by what the reptile store told me. I have learned so much though on this wonderful forum and I think this is just a sad misunderstanding that hopefully now can be sorted out. The experts are passionate and sometimes passion can be misinterpreted. I do hope that you will keep posting on here LeopardPickle because it really is the only forum I would use now and my little tort is a happy tort because of it. I am STILL learning and checking through old posts to get it right but I WILL put another post up if I need to ask another question. I also enjoy the light hearted "off topic" side to this place. We can all be sensitive at times and this world is a crazy one right now but we all get such joy from these amazing creatures. As Thelastgreen said "Let us not let what we love, divide us" :<3:
 

bluRose09

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Tortoise Club
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Jun 15, 2021
Messages
15
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Maggie, I am going to implement all of the advice Tom gave me. It was very solid advice. Once again, I am not making an effort to disprove any advice he gave nor the importance of it. I was making effort to explain that more people will benefit from (Tom’s) advice if he didn’t come across in what seemed to be condescending from the start. Yes, this is my interpretation of his written text. But you’d have to be ignoring the obvious to say that I don’t have a point. There was already another new member who stated “ I have never felt comfortable enough to ask a question here. I just look through the old threads. I even hesitated to post where I purchased incandescent bulbs in Ca because of the potential response.”

Once again, Tom is tortoise brilliant, I never said otherwise. Clearly a valuable resource for me to ask questions and get direction from. All I am saying is it would benefit more people if he was a bit more aware of how his responses come across (particularly new members), I’m not talking about the advice, when reading through the advice sentences, they are perfect, but I felt like there is extra (unnecessary) slams added at the beginning and ending of his communication to me.

Whether or not he wants to admit it, the manner he (and some others) intimidates the inexperienced leading to them not asking the questions they need.

I have made no attempt to slam, discredit, or insult Tom. Only to communicate my experience of this interaction as a new member. That is all I am trying to point out, and I keep getting responses from people with facts about why Tom is right and I am wrong. What I am trying to say, is that I don’t know why people keep arguing the Tom is right and I am wrong when I have already said, Tom is right, here is my feedback to make things better moving forward for us inexperienced members—there are two completely different focal points. This is to my point, it feels like people are ganging up or bullying, while that is not the intention, it comes across that way. Again, just feedback to make new members (who need the advice the most) more comfortable asking questions, because whether or not the well-known members will admit it, this is something hindering how even more successful this form could be.

If I may, respectfully, if I am the only one willing to grow from this experience, that is saying something.

Paredes, you have proved my point even more so. Why does it have to be "hang" or get out? Why can't people on both sides be willing to be a little open to the other's point of view? if so, it would lead to more people asking for the invaluable advice these experts have to offer.
This is what I was trying to express in my statement. Also, my words were NOT directed specifically toward Tom. Written words do convey a tone (intentional or unintentional). It doesn’t have to be “warm and fuzzy”. It needs to be respectful and thoughtful.
 
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