Never any posts on Marginated tortoises

[Posiewosie1]

Does anyone even have marginated tortoises? I never see any posts about them.

My 2 are so active and both still under a year old. They never go into their hides through the day and constantly eat and bask and adventure about!

I know they are one of the hardest to grow smooth. Please post pictures if you have any!!

 

[wellington]

We have very few members with them. Sad I know. Hopefully you will stick around, share pics, etc, and maybe more will share theirs.

 

[Posiewosie1]

We have very few members with them. Sad I know. Hopefully you will stick around, share pics, etc, and maybe more will share theirs.

Such a shame. I'm from the UK so maybe they must be harder to get in the states possibly! It's surprising mine are so active since I always read young ones sleep all day but mine seem to do the opposite. Growing between 1-4 grams a week. They eat all their food should I just keep supplying more if they finish it? They do have clover and sedum and all different plants growing in both their enclosures so they have food to forage for also. Is the such a thing as over feeding?

 

[Posiewosie1]

Down for the night. So cute.

 

[wellington]

I hate to be the one to tell you this. But they should not be kept in pairs. This might be why they are so active. They are trying to find a way to get away from each other.
There are many threads about not keeping them in pairs and why.
As for the food, yes, keep giving more. They should be able to graze all day off and on.

 

[Posiewosie1]

Yes they've already been separated since my last post and the mvb has been taken out as advised. Not made a closed chamber as just don't see the point of having them if they are covered away just to get a completely smooth shell. My humidity is around 60 in one enclosure and 70 in the other smaller one. I actually am not using a uvb light for them as they have access to the sun during the week (seen Tom's post about this) now they just have basking lights.

Although I followed advise and separated them already when I was going to next summer when they live outside but I'm intrigued as to how multiple tortoises can be less stressful then one? I read their solitary animals and I agree with that as I've seen posts of bullying and I remember when Tom replied to me about even one tortoise looking at the other can stres sit out affect it growth etc. So this is where my curiosity gets me... How can 2 tortoises looking at eachother Vs 10 tortoise looking at one be any better. (Btw I have no intention of keeping 10 and this is simply an example) haha. I haven't ever seen this discussed on here at all. What's the theory behind this because if they are solitary then surely much more of them together is even more stressful?

 

[SinLA]

If you had to rank the stress levels, its solo (none), group (some, can be a lot, may be not depending on the dynamics) or pairs (high).

Reason being the aggression is (or could be) "spread out" so that the torts (if ample room) can get away from it at least for a time. That doesn't mean one tort won't target a specific other tort in a group, or harass (for bullying or mating reasons) one or more specifically, its just in a group there's a higher likelihood of the aggression to any one given tort to be less. It doesn't mean any one tort won't face aggression or even that its less than in a pair, it just won't be MORE than in a pair... does that make sense?

 

[Posiewosie1]

If you had to rank the stress levels, its solo (none), group (some, can be a lot, may be not depending on the dynamics) or pairs (high).

Reason being the aggression is (or could be) "spread out" so that the torts (if ample room) can get away from it at least for a time. That doesn't mean one tort won't target a specific other tort in a group, or harass (for bullying or mating reasons) one or more specifically, its just in a group there's a higher likelihood of the aggression to any one given tort to be less. It doesn't mean any one tort won't face aggression or even that its less than in a pair, it just won't be MORE than in a pair... does that make sense?

Yes that makes sense. Reducing the stress on an individual tortoise but then I'm confused as why they are kept in groups at all if they really are solitary animals. Seems like they are definitely solitary animals and should be kept alone. I do wonder if any in the wild have ever been spotted groups...

 

[SinLA]

Yes that makes sense. Reducing the stress on an individual tortoise but then I'm confused as why they are kept in groups at all if they really are solitary animals. Seems like they are definitely solitary animals and should be kept alone. I do wonder if any in the wild have ever been spotted groups...

For people who breed them for a living, its easier I guess having groups vs keeping them all solo, but then there are also people who just "like" having lots of tortoises and its more fun for them to have many vs what is really good for the tort. I'd definitely get a ton more if I didn't feel it more ethical to keep them solo.

Also youtube people make money on what they present. People like seeing lots of tortoises. One is usually kind of boring...

 

[wellington]

If you had to rank the stress levels, its solo (none), group (some, can be a lot, may be not depending on the dynamics) or pairs (high).

Reason being the aggression is (or could be) "spread out" so that the torts (if ample room) can get away from it at least for a time. That doesn't mean one tort won't target a specific other tort in a group, or harass (for bullying or mating reasons) one or more specifically, its just in a group there's a higher likelihood of the aggression to any one given tort to be less. It doesn't mean any one tort won't face aggression or even that its less than in a pair, it just won't be MORE than in a pair... does that make sense?

What this poster said. Also, just because they are in a group doesn't mean they should not be watch and possibly separated. It's a better chance of working in a group, almost never in pairs, but always alone.

 

[wellington]

Also, it's not a solid closed chamber. You can make it out of glass, plexiglass, plastic. Tortoises should not be pyramided and the right and proper way is to care for them so they don't.

 

[Yvonne G]

Have you seen all the posts in the Marginated section?

 

[Posiewosie1]

For people who breed them for a living, its easier I guess having groups vs keeping them all solo, but then there are also people who just "like" having lots of tortoises and its more fun for them to have many vs what is really good for the tort. I'd definitely get a ton more if I didn't have to keep them solo.

Also youtube people make money on what they present. People like seeing lots of tortoises. One is usually kind of boring...

Yes I agree, I suppose they wouldn't have the room for them all separately.
When my mum got her 2nd Herman this year and she put it in its outside enclosure next to her older one but in separate enclosures. She said he must of sensed it as he charged out of his home with his head up. Strange maybe he could smell the new one.
Agree I'd love a pancake one sadly don't have the room...

 

[Posiewosie1]

Have you seen all the posts in the Marginated section?

Yeah the just doesn't seem to be regular or recent ones. I'd love to see some pics of other people's 😊

 

[Posiewosie1]

Also, it's not a solid closed chamber. You can make it out of glass, plexiglass, plastic. Tortoises should not be pyramided and the right and proper way is to care for them so they don't.

Yes understand what you mean, when I bought mine I thought tortoise tables was the best thing but I suppose it takes a lot of time spritzing it and that to keep the humidity high, adding plants, humidifier to the room etc it would of saved me a lot of time just having a closed enclosures. I was referring I suppose to the obsession of growing perfect tortoises and I suppose all you can do is give them everything they need with the right hunidiy and heat, food and space and hope they grow smoothly. My humidity is in the high end and I suppose I can't do anything more then that so if they do get pyramiding I'm at a bit of a loss!

 

[Tom]

If you had to rank the stress levels, its solo (none), group (some, can be a lot, may be not depending on the dynamics) or pairs (high).

Reason being the aggression is (or could be) "spread out" so that the torts (if ample room) can get away from it at least for a time. That doesn't mean one tort won't target a specific other tort in a group, or harass (for bullying or mating reasons) one or more specifically, its just in a group there's a higher likelihood of the aggression to any one given tort to be less. It doesn't mean any one tort won't face aggression or even that its less than in a pair, it just won't be MORE than in a pair... does that make sense?

This concept is so difficult to get across...

A tortoise walking around alone is not exhibiting any aggression at all. Let's call this a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10. There is no one to aggress against, and no need to defend territory since there is no intruder.

Two tortoises in one enclosure will be exhibiting anywhere from 5 to 10 on this scale depending on many variables. Appetite, amount of space, amount of food, number and scale of sight barriers, age, sizes, sexes, sexual maturity level, individual temperament, species general temperament (less in stars and more in Russians, for example...), season, climate, temperature, time of day, reproductive activity, etc...

When its one on one, there is but one focus. One enemy to be concerned about, afraid of, or be compelled to drive away. 100% of any aggression or territorial or possessive behavior, will be focused directly on that other tortoise all day, every day. There is nothing else to focus on. No other movement to catch the eye. Nothing to distract the individual from the presence of the other individual.

When kept as a group, there is constant movement, distraction, and activity on all sides all the time. Just as an aggressor decides to go after an intruder, another tortoise walks right in front of him, or off to one side, or another one comes up from behind him... There is so much going on and so many other tortoises, that there is just no point in trying to maintain a territory, or drive one other tortoise away. So in this case, the aggression subsides and is dissipated. Its not that one of our pair of tortoise takes his level 10 aggression and spreads it out over several individuals. Its that our level 10 guy becomes a level 2 guy now, and the level 2 is spread out over several individuals, resulting in almost no perceived aggression at all from the recipients. You might still see a dominant individual trying to sit on top of the food pile, but everyone just eats around him, and he does nothing about it.

We see an example of this with corvids. Ravens and crows tend to pair off and get territorial. A local pair with drive off any interloper that dares to intrude. But if that interloper happens to see a good food source, like a big road kill, he/she will go back to the juvenile group or the bachelor herd, and recruit a bunch of them to follow back to the food source. When 5 or 10 or 20 birds show up to scavenge, the territorial local pair just doesn't waste the energy in a futile effort to drive them all away, and they just join the group and feast all together. Same thing with tortoises. If there is one competitor, you drive it away. If there are a bunch of them, it would be futile to try to drive them away, so it becomes more of a safety in numbers kind of a thing, and you don't waste time and energy trying to drive them all out of your territory. Groups reduce aggression levels.

There is a similar parallel with human criminals. Most of them are opportunists. When they see a single individual or maybe a pair that they perceive as weak or vulnerable, they move into action. When they see a group of 6 or 10 individuals moving through their territory, they just let them go and look for an easier target.

I am mostly discussing babies and juvenile tortoises here. All this goes right out the window when you have multiple adult males in the same enclosure for most species. Having said that, I have actually seen large groups of sulcatas in huge pens where there are multiple adult males, and the principles I'm talking about here do apply. It is generally not advisable to have more than one adult male per enclosure for most species most of the time. There are exceptions.

 

[Tom]

Yes understand what you mean, when I bought mine I thought tortoise tables was the best thing but I suppose it takes a lot of time spritzing it and that to keep the humidity high, adding plants, humidifier to the room etc it would of saved me a lot of time just having a closed enclosures. I was referring I suppose to the obsession of growing perfect tortoises and I suppose all you can do is give them everything they need with the right hunidiy and heat, food and space and hope they grow smoothly. My humidity is in the high end and I suppose I can't do anything more then that so if they do get pyramiding I'm at a bit of a loss!

If you were to hatch out a whole bunch of tortoises from the same clutch, and then raise half of them in an open table with frequent spritzing and room humidifiers, and raise the other half in a closed chamber, the difference would be obvious in just a few weeks. Few people have the means, ability, or interest in doing this, but there are a few among us who have undertaken such experiments. This is where the assertions of what is "best" come from.

The desire to grow them smoothly does not come from some cosmetic obsession. It comes from wanting to figure out what makes them grow smoothly in the wild, and why they look so different in our enclosures. It comes from an inclination to learn more and do our very best. If one method or other is producing poor results (pyramiding), and another method produces better results (less pyramiding), I want to follow the better methodology, all the while trying to understand why it works better and how to improve upon it.

To answer your original question, I don't know why they are less popular than other species. Their lager size makes them harder to house in winter in the frozen north, when compared to other smaller Testudo species. I have heard repeatedly that they are more shy than other Testudo species, and less outgoing, so that might be a factor. Personally, I don't find the flared scutes to be all that visually pleasing, and prefer the neater more symmetrical appearance of the hermanni myself, but that beauty is most certainly in the eye of the beholder. Similarly, many people adore aldabras, but I don't care for their pointy noses. Its just my personal preference.

I have not heard that marginated are harder to grow smooth. That is news to me.

On your other question: No, there is no such thing as overfeeding as long as the tortoise is housed, hydrated and fed properly. Tortoises are grazers. They should be able to graze freely all day.

 

[Posiewosie1]

If you were to hatch out a whole bunch of tortoises from the same clutch, and then raise half of them in an open table with frequent spritzing and room humidifiers, and raise the other half in a closed chamber, the difference would be obvious in just a few weeks. Few people have the means, ability, or interest in doing this, but there are a few among us who have undertaken such experiments. This is where the assertions of what is "best" come from.

The desire to grow them smoothly does not come from some cosmetic obsession. It comes from wanting to figure out what makes them grow smoothly in the wild, and why they look so different in our enclosures. It comes from an inclination to learn more and do our very best. If one method or other is producing poor results (pyramiding), and another method produces better results (less pyramiding), I want to follow the better methodology, all the while trying to understand why it works better and how to improve upon it.

To answer your original question, I don't know why they are less popular than other species. Their lager size makes them harder to house in winter in the frozen north, when compared to other smaller Testudo species. I have heard repeatedly that they are more shy than other Testudo species, and less outgoing, so that might be a factor. Personally, I don't find the flared scutes to be all that visually pleasing, and prefer the neater more symmetrical appearance of the hermanni myself, but that beauty is most certainly in the eye of the beholder. Similarly, many people adore aldabras, but I don't care for their pointy noses. Its just my personal preference.

I have not heard that marginated are harder to grow smooth. That is news to me.

On your other question: No, there is no such thing as overfeeding as long as the tortoise is housed, hydrated and fed properly. Tortoises are grazers. They should be able to graze freely all day.

Yeah I suppose for me keeping them in an enclosed box (I think you might know it of like Rubbermaid containers) or a vivarium which I read somewhere is bad so I opted for the open tables so I could poke me head in every 10 minutes and spy on them with out the hassle of taking them apart to check on them. I obviously would do it if it was very necessary and I couldn't keep up with humidity and heat but since I'm hitting the numbers I think I will keep that the same. They seem really healthy active and entertaining and gaining weight. I have taken away the MVB and now both of them just have basking lights.

It's so strange because my mum has kept leopards and Hermann in the pass and currently and she wishes she had a Marginated she thinks they are the most active and friendly of the ones she has seen. Mine clock me as soon as I enter the room and walk towards me (I know, they only care about the food I bring them but for an example haha. They both take food from the hand and accept head and neck strokes.) Maybe in the future you should get yourself a marginated, put it to the test 🤣

It was the garden state tortoise guy who said that he very rarely sees one that resembles the ones in wild due to how fast they grow or something or other ( I may of read this wrong 🙄)

I know you keep tortoises and not my kind but would you say gaining between 1 and 4 grams a week is good? I shall keep supplying all of it then. They seem to constantly eat and poo a couple of times a day even without.

P.s great way of explaining the group of torotises. It is a hard concept to get your head around that they are solitary but can be kept in groups. I suppose the stimulation of the others keep the bully occupied, makes sense.

 

[Tom]

I know you keep tortoises and not my kind but would you say gaining between 1 and 4 grams a week is good?

If you listed their current weight somewhere I missed it. I like babies to grow between 10% and 30% of their weight monthly. So a 100 gram baby should put on between 10 and 30 grams in a month.

So to answer your question, I'd need to know what their current weights are.

I also stick to the same routine for weigh day to keep things reasonably consistent. My routine is to feed them normally in the morning, soak in the afternoon, and weigh them about half way through their soak after they have pooped. They can eat or poop a surprisingly large percentage of their body weight, so I try to make it the same each time. Mid day, full belly, empty bowel.

Yeah I suppose for me keeping them in an enclosed box (I think you might know it of like Rubbermaid containers) or a vivarium which I read somewhere is bad so I opted for the open tables so I could poke me head in every 10 minutes and spy on them with out the hassle of taking them apart to check on them.

Rubbermade containers and other such tubs don't work very well. In addition to your concern of not being able to see and enjoy them, having the lights outside the enclosure and on top is very inefficient and creates a chimney effect which draws the heat and humidity up and out. A true vivarium or closed chamber has all of the heating and lighting inside. Mine all have either hinged doors, or sliding glass doors, and I can view and enjoy my tortoises just as well as you.

It is very unlikely that you are hitting the humidity numbers with an open topped enclosure. This is like heating your house in winter with no roof on it. It doesn't work, unless the entire room is the temperature and humidity that is needed inside the enclosure. Most gauges and stick-on thermometers sold in pet shops are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable.

It was the garden state tortoise guy who said that he very rarely sees one that resembles the ones in wild due to how fast they grow or something or other ( I may of read this wrong 🙄)

I don't agree with Chris on everything, or anyone else for that matter, but he's right about this. We are getting much better, but there are still elements of the wild that we don't understand, and cannot duplicate in captivity. The wild is very harsh and unforgiving. Most babies do not survive in the wild. The diet, climate, weather, and hydration factors that influence them can vary dramatically. What I and many others have been trying to do is suss out which factors of the wild are optimal for their health and well being, and do our best to duplicate those. Concurrently, we try to protect them from the detrimental, deadly elements of the wild like predation, dehydration, and starvation. Side-by-side experiments like the one I mentioned previously help to determine what works best for a given species.

It's so strange because my mum has kept leopards and Hermann in the pass and currently and she wishes she had a Marginated she thinks they are the most active and friendly of the ones she has seen. Mine clock me as soon as I enter the room and walk towards me (I know, they only care about the food I bring them but for an example haha. They both take food from the hand and accept head and neck strokes.) Maybe in the future you should get yourself a marginated, put it to the test 🤣

Leopards are one of the shyest species there are. Over here in the states, they are all a mixture of genetics, including the bold, out-going South African genetics, so many people over here don't think they are all that shy.

The hermanni that I have been around have all been pretty good. Not shy, but not insanely bold either.

No new tortoises for me. I have plenty to take care of now.

 

[Posiewosie1]

If you listed their current weight somewhere I missed it. I like babies to grow between 10% and 30% of their weight monthly. So a 100 gram baby should put on between 10 and 30 grams in a month.

So to answer your question, I'd need to know what their current weights are.

I also stick to the same routine for weigh day to keep things reasonably consistent. My routine is to feed them normally in the morning, soak in the afternoon, and weigh them about half way through their soak after they have pooped. They can eat or poop a surprisingly large percentage of their body weight, so I try to make it the same each time. Mid day, full belly, empty bowel.


Rubbermade containers and other such tubs don't work very well. In addition to your concern of not being able to see and enjoy them, having the lights outside the enclosure and on top is very inefficient and creates a chimney effect which draws the heat and humidity up and out. A true vivarium or closed chamber has all of the heating and lighting inside. Mine all have either hinged doors, or sliding glass doors, and I can view and enjoy my tortoises just as well as you.

It is very unlikely that you are hitting the humidity numbers with an open topped enclosure. This is like heating your house in winter with no roof on it. It doesn't work, unless the entire room is the temperature and humidity that is needed inside the enclosure. Most gauges and stick-on thermometers sold in pet shops are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable.


I don't agree with Chris on everything, or anyone else for that matter, but he's right about this. We are getting much better, but there are still elements of the wild that we don't understand, and cannot duplicate in captivity. The wild is very harsh and unforgiving. Most babies do not survive in the wild. The diet, climate, weather, and hydration factors that influence them can vary dramatically. What I and many others have been trying to do is suss out which factors of the wild are optimal for their health and well being, and do our best to duplicate those. Concurrently, we try to protect them from the detrimental, deadly elements of the wild like predation, dehydration, and starvation. Side-by-side experiments like the one I mentioned previously help to determine what works best for a given species.


Leopards are one of the shyest species there are. Over here in the states, they are all a mixture of genetics, including the bold, out-going South African genetics, so many people over here don't think they are all that shy.

The hermanni that I have been around have all been pretty good. Not shy, but not insanely bold either.

No new tortoises for me. I have plenty to take care of now.

I think as I'm only having them indoors til next year I will continue with the endless spraying of them and humidifier etc as already had the enclosures built for the room now. Maybe I'll add something over the top to contain the humidity like foil etc.
Mine last week was 43/44 now 45/48 grams. Ok I will keep it the same for weighing so I can keep the most accurate chart possible.
I think when he wrote it in his marginated care sheet he was specifically saying about marginated being more pyramided then other ones.. interesting, I wonder why. Im intrigued to know. I suppose it's an ongoing and updated learning experience for everyone, I do read different information all the time, probably why I started out as such a bad tortoise keeper, I get my info from here now and just follow the caresheets as much as I can.
I have only a digital thermometer that shows the humidity so it may not be accurate, the outside humidity is 98% so when they go out I suppose they will be in that and that is accurate as its on the weather app. Am I correct in thinking they don't get much pyramiding after the age of 2?
Do you ever upload pictures of your set ups? Would love to see how you keep them. Maybe you should make a post for newbies like me and add pictures