New here! I’ve done my research but..

[Casefresh]

Hi All,

New here. Done my research it it’s always nice to get peoples thoughts. I have a total of 3, 2 month old Hermanns (names are tank, Koopa and tortle) together in a 4ft L x 2ft H x 2ft W enclosure indoors. I have a radiometer for UVI readings, -150w ceramic bulb, t10 reptisun ho, cypress mulch . All the right things.

Here are my questions:

-haven’t seen these guys poop or pee for the two weeks I have had them. They eat well. I put them in warm water, no poop or pee. Must be sneaky about it?

-How deep should I make the cypress mulch substrate?

-How long do I have with this size enclosure before I have to upgrade? I’m Thinking a couple years..keep in mind I am in Canada so only sporadic summer visits outside.

-Besides spot cleaning, What is a good rule of thumb for a total substrate replacement - every 3months?

-my coldest temp, in the cold zone overnight is 21C. During day 33C under ceramic heater and 27C on the cold zone . Humidity 50-65% consistent all night/day. These readings are taken at substrate floor level.

-Repti vite? Needed? If so, 1 x a week? I do the calcium every other day.

-Shell cream? Good or bad?

-I am thinking of putting some succulents in the enclosure. Are any succulents poisonous for tortoises? There is no description of what type these are on the pot.

-Can succulents grow under a reptisun uva/uvb bulb okay?

On another species note: an Indian star tortoise. I am assuming the above conditions would work with a baby star if I get another enclosure and mimic this one?

Cheers,

casefresh

 

[Yvonne G]

Welcome!

 

[Casefresh]

Hi again - Thanks for the welcome note! Just curious if I should of posted my above questions on a different forum section?? I don’t want to double post...yet .

 

[Ray--Opo]

Not sure about Hermann's but when Opo my sulcata was a new born I noticed no poop but there was a dark ring around the mouth. After watching Opo while eating in the morning Opo would poop at the same time and eat it. So as soon as Opo pooped I would clean it up. Pretty soon Opo lost interest in the brown morsels.

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

Welcome!

Jamie

 

[Bee62]

Hi again - Thanks for the welcome note! Just curious if I should of posted my above questions on a different forum section?? I don’t want to double post...yet .

Copy your first post with all your questions and please post it in the Testudo Hermanni section of the forum. That is the right place for your questions and they will be read and hopefully answered by the members that are familiar with these species of tortoises.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Hi All,

New here. Done my research it it’s always nice to get peoples thoughts. I have a total of 3, 2 month old Hermanns (names are tank, Koopa and tortle) together in a 4ft L x 2ft H x 2ft W enclosure indoors. I have a radiometer for UVI readings, -150w ceramic bulb, t10 reptisun ho, cypress mulch . All the right things.

Here are my questions:

-haven’t seen these guys poop or pee for the two weeks I have had them. They eat well. I put them in warm water, no poop or pee. Must be sneaky about it?

It could be they are eating each other's poop and/or you have some sort of bio-active going on - in that pill bug etc are eating it?

-How deep should I make the cypress mulch substrate?

Two inches is a good depth.

-How long do I have with this size enclosure before I have to upgrade? I’m Thinking a couple years..keep in mind I am in Canada so only sporadic summer visits outside.

You have 8 square feet of space now (4 x 2) so you might think for adults a full size sheet of plywood, 4 x 8 as a minimum, when, sooner than later. If that is not a good shape, then maybe 12 x 3 of even an 'L' shape with 3 x 8 with a 3 x 8 side area. some times three is a high enough population to reduce the low grade stress when tortoises are housed as pairs. If you end up with two males and female, you'll need the larger space for sure.

-Besides spot cleaning, What is a good rule of thumb for a total substrate replacement - every 3months?

Make the spot cleaning a continuous replacement process. Old substarte that is not 'soiled' does not need to be replaced at all.

-my coldest temp, in the cold zone overnight is 21C. During day 33C under ceramic heater and 27C on the cold zone . Humidity 50-65% consistent all night/day. These readings are taken at substrate floor level.

You might consider a moist hide box with the choice of an ambient RH hide box.

-Repti vite? Needed? If so, 1 x a week? I do the calcium every other day.

I do a two kinds of supplement routine, switching back and forth every other day, and skip one day a week, and one day a week just calcium. I use Vionate and Chicken layer crumbles.

-Shell cream? Good or bad?

BAD, no actual value and a waste of time.

-I am thinking of putting some succulents in the enclosure. Are any succulents poisonous for tortoises? There is no description of what type these are on the pot.

You might try many plants, and ultra conservative plant list is at ' The tortoise Table'. The thing with plants is not using those from big box stores where nobody can tell you with any certainty that the plants have not had any pesticides used. They all get some sort of 'fertilizer' so simplest way to sort it out is try and find an 'organic nursery'.

-Can succulents grow under a reptisun uva/uvb bulb okay?

YES

On another species note: an Indian star tortoise. I am assuming the above conditions would work with a baby star if I get another enclosure and mimic this one?

Higher humidity for a star, consider a fully enclosed cage. There are a bazillion threads on such here on TFO.

Cheers,

casefresh

Response in your text, click on the 'click to expand' tab.

 

[Tom]

Hi All,

New here. Done my research it it’s always nice to get peoples thoughts. I have a total of 3, 2 month old Hermanns (names are tank, Koopa and tortle) together in a 4ft L x 2ft H x 2ft W enclosure indoors. I have a radiometer for UVI readings, -150w ceramic bulb, t10 reptisun ho, cypress mulch . All the right things.

Here are my questions:

-haven’t seen these guys poop or pee for the two weeks I have had them. They eat well. I put them in warm water, no poop or pee. Must be sneaky about it?

-How deep should I make the cypress mulch substrate?

-How long do I have with this size enclosure before I have to upgrade? I’m Thinking a couple years..keep in mind I am in Canada so only sporadic summer visits outside.

-Besides spot cleaning, What is a good rule of thumb for a total substrate replacement - every 3months?

-my coldest temp, in the cold zone overnight is 21C. During day 33C under ceramic heater and 27C on the cold zone . Humidity 50-65% consistent all night/day. These readings are taken at substrate floor level.

-Repti vite? Needed? If so, 1 x a week? I do the calcium every other day.

-Shell cream? Good or bad?

-I am thinking of putting some succulents in the enclosure. Are any succulents poisonous for tortoises? There is no description of what type these are on the pot.

-Can succulents grow under a reptisun uva/uvb bulb okay?

On another species note: an Indian star tortoise. I am assuming the above conditions would work with a baby star if I get another enclosure and mimic this one?

Cheers,

casefresh

Hello and welcome.

I'll try to answer all your questions. I like to number them to keep it all straight in my mind.
1. Before your first question, I have one. What do you mean by radiometer? Do you have the Solarmeter 6.5? What reading do you get from it at tortoise height?
2. Now your first question: You should be seeing poop. Mine all poop in the soak. Maybe you need to soak them a bit longer? I like to soak them from 40-60 minutes. Be sure the water stays warm throughout. I'd also soak them individually so you can see who is pooping and who hasn't yet. How much do you feed them? What do you feed them? It is possible that they are pooping in the enclosure and its is either falling down between the mulch pieces or being eaten.
3. I like 3-4 inches of substrate.
4. Growth rate can vary tremendously and for a wide variety of reasons. I'd guess no long than 6 months to a year in a little 2x4' enclosure.
5. I sort clean daily, and I only replace the substrate when that animal moves out of the enclosure and I have a new one coming in. No need to replace the substrate if it not soiled. Since my tortoise all poop in the soaking water, there is rarely any poop in the enclosure.
6. In addition to your CHE, which is to maintain ambient, and your UV tube which is for light and UV, you also need a basking bulb. I like to use low wattage flood bulbs from the hardware store. Temperature directly under our simulated sun should be around 36C. I adjust the height of the fixture to get the correct temp under it. Your other temps sound great. Humidity sounds a little low for babies, and if it is an open topped table, it is probably not high enough.
7. I'd do the vitamins once a week or not at all with a good weedy diet, and calcium twice a week, if needed.
8. No need for shell cream, but I don't think it does any harm.
9. Yes some succulents are toxic.
10. Most succulents are not going to do well under a single florescent tube indoors.
11. The above condition will definitely NOT work well for a start tortoise. They need it much hotter day and night and much more humid. They are very much a tropical species, where your hermanni are a temperate species.

 

[Casefresh]

Thanks for all your replies!! Here are my follow-ups to them:

Yes - Radiometer is the Solarmeter 6.5. Truth is I get it early next week from amazon, so can’t give a reading until then.

Wow! 40-60 min soaks? I was only doing 15min soaks.

Regarding adding a basking light answer - my temps are pretty high under the ceramic heat bulb, so I think I’m good there.

For the star tortoise, all the care sheets on the net look pretty similar to the Hermanns. I agree they need a bit more humidity but I assume nothing like the red foots.

Look forward to interacting and posting with all of you.

Thanks

 

[Tom]

Thanks for all your replies!! Here are my follow-ups to them:

Yes - Radiometer is the Solarmeter 6.5. Truth is I get it early next week from amazon, so can’t give a reading until then.

Wow! 40-60 min soaks? I was only doing 15min soaks.

Regarding adding a basking light answer - my temps are pretty high under the ceramic heat bulb, so I think I’m good there.

For the star tortoise, all the care sheets on the net look pretty similar to the Hermanns. I agree they need a bit more humidity but I assume nothing like the red foots.

Look forward to interacting and posting with all of you.

Thanks

The care sheets on the net are wrong. That is old out-dated info based on incorrect assumptions of how they live in the wild and what they need. Yes, much like a redfoot, but hotter and with a basking lamp. The hot humid rainy monsoon season is what they hatch into in the wild. Simulating this monsoon season in our indoor enclosures is both natural and beneficial.

High temps under a CHE is not what you need. A basking bulb that gives of heat and light is what you need.

 

[Casefresh]

The care sheets on the net are wrong. That is old out-dated info based on incorrect assumptions of how they live in the wild and what they need. Yes, much like a redfoot, but hotter and with a basking lamp. The hot humid rainy monsoon season is what they hatch into in the wild. Simulating this monsoon season in our indoor enclosures is both natural and beneficial.

High temps under a CHE is not what you need. A basking bulb that gives of heat and light is what you need.

Thanks Tom. A couple things:

-My humidity gauge is really not giving the humidity in the hideaways and substrate. It sits at 60% . The reading is about 3 inches above the substrate on the glass wall. Now, I mist and ooor water on substrate every day, so I have to believe the humidity the tortoises will see will be higher than my gaige reading.

-if a CHE is giving off good enough basking temps below it and Inhave a 46” 24w t5 10.0 repitsun light, wouldn’t that do okay?

-temperature: If I am 25c overnight, all good? I just can’t keep the temp any higher on the cold side. It’s only a couple degrees from your rule of thumb. I can make the thermostat night setting the same temp I have set for the day (34C) but then there will not be any climate change in my enclosure like they would see in the wild. The thermostat is controlling the CHE.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Tom]

Thanks Tom. A couple things:

-My humidity gauge is really not giving the humidity in the hideaways and substrate. It sits at 60% . The reading is about 3 inches above the substrate on the glass wall. Now, I mist and ooor water on substrate every day, so I have to believe the humidity the tortoises will see will be higher than my gaige reading.

-if a CHE is giving off good enough basking temps below it and Inhave a 46” 24w t5 10.0 repitsun light, wouldn’t that do okay?

-temperature: If I am 25c overnight, all good? I just can’t keep the temp any higher on the cold side. It’s only a couple degrees from your rule of thumb. I can make the thermostat night setting the same temp I have set for the day (34C) but then there will not be any climate change in my enclosure like they would see in the wild. The thermostat is controlling the CHE.

Thanks for all your help!

-What type of hygrometer are you using? This will give us a better idea of how close to accurate it is. The stick on dial types marketed for reptiles are horribly inaccurate and unreliable. Digital ones are much better, but still not perfect. The $10 digital ones form the hardware store are close enough.

-A CHE gives off no light. Some tortoise seem to figure out that its warm under them some of the time, but in my experience they don't work s a substitute for a basking lamp. CHEs are for maintaining ambient temps. Not for basking. The florescent tube lights up the whole enclosure and doesn't create a "basking area". There are four elements to heating and lighting:
1. Basking lamp. I use low wattage flood bulbs from the hardware store and adjust the height of the fixture to get the correct temp under them. These are run on a timer.
2. CHE. I run these on a thermostat to keep ambient temps where I want them.
3. UV. Some people need this and some don't. Depends on your climate and the season. Sometimes on their own timer, sometimes on the basking bulb timer.
4. Additional light. I use LEDs or florescent tubes for this, if needed, and run them on the same timer as the basking bulb.

-Is 25C good for which species? Its a little too warm at night for hermanni, and a little too cool at night for a star. You will never be able to maintain the correct conditions for a star in an open topped enclosure unless the whole room is heated and humidified to monsoon conditions day and night. Here is how I start my babies from tropical species:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/

Here is how I start temperate species:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

 

[Casefresh]

-What type of hygrometer are you using? This will give us a better idea of how close to accurate it is. The stick on dial types marketed for reptiles are horribly inaccurate and unreliable. Digital ones are much better, but still not perfect. The $10 digital ones form the hardware store are close enough.

-A CHE gives off no light. Some tortoise seem to figure out that its warm under them some of the time, but in my experience they don't work s a substitute for a basking lamp. CHEs are for maintaining ambient temps. Not for basking. The florescent tube lights up the whole enclosure and doesn't create a "basking area". There are four elements to heating and lighting:
1. Basking lamp. I use low wattage flood bulbs from the hardware store and adjust the height of the fixture to get the correct temp under them. These are run on a timer.
2. CHE. I run these on a thermostat to keep ambient temps where I want them.
3. UV. Some people need this and some don't. Depends on your climate and the season. Sometimes on their own timer, sometimes on the basking bulb timer.
4. Additional light. I use LEDs or florescent tubes for this, if needed, and run them on the same timer as the basking bulb.

-Is 25C good for which species? Its a little too warm at night for hermanni, and a little too cool at night for a star. You will never be able to maintain the correct conditions for a star in an open topped enclosure unless the whole room is heated and humidified to monsoon conditions day and night. Here is how I start my babies from tropical species:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/

Here is how I start temperate species:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

Thanks for the reply Tom. I am bouncing between stars and Hermanns.

-I have a digital hygrometer.

-I am going to use this enclosure (it is covered), I’ll attach a pic of it. I am hoping to use this enclosure for Hermanns and stars, but not at same time and just want it to be useable for both with not any real tweaking with my set up temps and humidity.

It sounds like no matter what, tortoise hatchlings, I’ve read on this forum that having them warmer and more humid than the adults is best for the first couple years. Do you concur with this?

More questions:

-if I have one side of enclosure that is too cool or hot for a star or Hermann, wouldn’t you think they would venture to the side they like better? Or sleep on their preferred side?

-humid hide (funny name eh?) what is involved in this? A hideaway with moist substrate underneath?

-have you taken a uvi reading? What do you average for your stars in the enclosure?

-I have the uv light on 12 hrs a day now. I think I’ll bump it up to 14hrs?

Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the reply Tom. I am bouncing between stars and Hermanns.

-I have a digital hygrometer.

-I am going to use this enclosure (it is covered), I’ll attach a pic of it. I am hoping to use this enclosure for Hermanns and stars, but not at same time and just want it to be useable for both with not any real tweaking with my set up temps and humidity.

It sounds like no matter what, tortoise hatchlings, I’ve read on this forum that having them warmer and more humid than the adults is best for the first couple years. Do you concur with this?

More questions:

-if I have one side of enclosure that is too cool or hot for a star or Hermann, wouldn’t you think they would venture to the side they like better? Or sleep on their preferred side?

-humid hide (funny name eh?) what is involved in this? A hideaway with moist substrate underneath?

-have you taken a uvi reading? What do you average for your stars in the enclosure?

-I have the uv light on 12 hrs a day now. I think I’ll bump it up to 14hrs?

-Hermanni and stars have very different requirements, so much tweaking would be needed to switch from one to the other.

-I do concur. Warmer and more humid is better for all hatchlings of any species, compared to what the adults can tolerate.

-There are many reasons why a tortoise might choose to rest in one spot over another. For babies the primary drive is to remain hidden to avoid predation. Given the choice, they will often choose the wrong conditions because in the wild where they come from, the wrong conditions don't exist, so they just choose the place that "feels" the most secure to them at that moment. In a captive environment, they sometimes choose a spot that is too cold and they get sick and die. A good example is an tortoise of any species that has been recently moved to an outside pen with a heated night box. Most of them, at least initially, will go park under a bush for the night, even thought temps might be below freezing over night. They do this when there is a heated shelter sitting right there. They aren't thinking about correct temperatures. They are thinking about getting hunkered down for the night. In the wild, any place they choose would have the right temperatures. In our captive environments, we have to help them.

-Yes on the humid hide. You've got it.

-I don't use artificial UV in my enclosures because my tortoises all get real sunshine all year long.

-How many hours a day you run your UV depends on the readings. For a UVI of 2-3, I think running it all day is fine, as long as they can get out of the light and into some shade. For UVI higher than that, I limit it. I had some Arcadia 12% HO bulbs that gave me a UVI of 6-7. I only ran those bulbs for 3-4 hours mid day to simulate the mid day temp spike that happens outside every day.

-New subject: Those ramped water bowls are literally tortoise death traps. Get rid of it ASAP. The food bowl is a flipping hazard too. Terra cotta saucers sunk into the substrate work best for both food and water.

Very good questions! Feel free to keep them coming. Off to bed with me for tonight. I'll check back tomorrow.

 

[Casefresh]

-Hermanni and stars have very different requirements, so much tweaking would be needed to switch from one to the other.

-I do concur. Warmer and more humid is better for all hatchlings of any species, compared to what the adults can tolerate.

-There are many reasons why a tortoise might choose to rest in one spot over another. For babies the primary drive is to remain hidden to avoid predation. Given the choice, they will often choose the wrong conditions because in the wild where they come from, the wrong conditions don't exist, so they just choose the place that "feels" the most secure to them at that moment. In a captive environment, they sometimes choose a spot that is too cold and they get sick and die. A good example is an tortoise of any species that has been recently moved to an outside pen with a heated night box. Most of them, at least initially, will go park under a bush for the night, even thought temps might be below freezing over night. They do this when there is a heated shelter sitting right there. They aren't thinking about correct temperatures. They are thinking about getting hunkered down for the night. In the wild, any place they choose would have the right temperatures. In our captive environments, we have to help them.

-Yes on the humid hide. You've got it.

-I don't use artificial UV in my enclosures because my tortoises all get real sunshine all year long.

-How many hours a day you run your UV depends on the readings. For a UVI of 2-3, I think running it all day is fine, as long as they can get out of the light and into some shade. For UVI higher than that, I limit it. I had some Arcadia 12% HO bulbs that gave me a UVI of 6-7. I only ran those bulbs for 3-4 hours mid day to simulate the mid day temp spike that happens outside every day.

-New subject: Those ramped water bowls are literally tortoise death traps. Get rid of it ASAP. The food bowl is a flipping hazard too. Terra cotta saucers sunk into the substrate work best for both food and water.

Very good questions! Feel free to keep them coming. Off to bed with me for tonight. I'll check back tomorrow.

Thanks Tom! Do you have a pic of these terra cottage saucers you use? I’m sure I’ll have more questions soon, cheers.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Tom! Do you have a pic of these terra cottage saucers you use? I’m sure I’ll have more questions soon, cheers.

You can see them in the links in post number 12 here.

 

[Casefresh]

You can see them in the links in post number 12 here.

Hanks Tom! One more question. My digital thermostat and hygrometer is good, but it is so hard to read through the enclosure for a quick look. What model do you use?

Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Hanks Tom! One more question. My digital thermostat and hygrometer is good, but it is so hard to read through the enclosure for a quick look. What model do you use?

Thanks!

I buy the Accurite ones from Lowes. They cost about $10 and the model that they have for sale changes every so often.

 

[Pastel Tortie]

-I am thinking of putting some succulents in the enclosure. Are any succulents poisonous for tortoises? There is no description of what type these are on the pot.

-Can succulents grow under a reptisun uva/uvb bulb okay?

Yes, some succulents are poisonous to tortoises and turtles. Assume any Euphorbia species is off limits.

You should be fine with any Aloe, Hawarthia, Gasteria, or hybrids of those three. You shouldn't have any problem with any Echeverias or Echeveria hybrids. Most Sedums are fine - I believe the exception is S. acre, which is apparently toxic to tortoises.

I guess you could say I have a keen interest and decent knowledge base where succulents are concerned. If you post pictures of the specific plants in question, I can probably help you further.

As to whether the plants will grow under a UVA/UVB light, the answer is: It depends. I can help more if we can narrow it down to certain plants or types of plants. There are plenty of succulents that can handle a wide range of lighting and temperatures, but you have to adjust watering based on the other environmental factors.

 

[Casefresh]

Yes, some succulents are poisonous to tortoises and turtles. Assume any Euphorbia species is off limits.

You should be fine with any Aloe, Hawarthia, Gasteria, or hybrids of those three. You shouldn't have any problem with any Echeverias or Echeveria hybrids. Most Sedums are fine - I believe the exception is S. acre, which is apparently toxic to tortoises.

I guess you could say I have a keen interest and decent knowledge base where succulents are concerned. If you post pictures of the specific plants in question, I can probably help you further.

As to whether the plants will grow under a UVA/UVB light, the answer is: It depends. I can help more if we can narrow it down to certain plants or types of plants. There are plenty of succulents that can handle a wide range of lighting and temperatures, but you have to adjust watering based on the other environmental factors.

I have two Zebra’s, are they going to do good in enclosure and can my tortoises have some to eat? Here is a pic.