New overly worried leopard hatchling mom

[rikadizo]

Hi! I wish it was in better spirits writing this. I’ve been reading threads here pretty regularly for the past month trying to correct my mistakes. Guilt of not being prepared coming into owning a tort has been eating me up and I’m afraid my baby is suffering from first time keeper failure 😞 I’ve basically made every beginner mistake it seems. I could give a detailed history but in attempt to keep this short…

I have a leopard tortoise hatchling that I was told was about a month old when I bought her from a local reptile store. I’ve had her for 8 weeks now so that makes her about 3 months old. Only started weighing her a couple weeks ago when she was 30g and now 32g, nothing in the past week.

My panic of realizing my wrongdoing tricked me into paying a vet only to tell me to change substrate to carpet and to cut up her food to help her eat more. Her eating was never much. She goes at it when she does but stops after her tiny fill. Started with dandelion greens and mustard greens. At some point she only cared for cactus and now cucumber, which I was able to trick her with last night into some bites of mazuri. Today no go.

Reptile store sold me a 20 gallon screen top with a CFL and red spot bulb. Reptibark for substrate but not a clue to keep moist. It was ignorant bliss for first couple weeks until she started dragging hind legs. The only thing I might’ve done right was daily warm soaks.

Baby keeps her head high when I get the temp and humidity right. I switched out all the lights first of this month to a CHE, incandescent flood light and repti zoo T5 HO UV tube. All are on top of the screen however with the rest covered with foil. Temps stay at 29-34C and humidity 55-75%. Substrate now is eco earth coco fiber kept damp. She still drags but I’ll see her push up on a hind leg occasionally.

She’s been more fussy lately or what looks to me like crying. I absolutely hate that it could be she’s in awful pain. She stretches out a bit then quivers her bottom jaw. Is she suffering too much?

I get glimmers of hope all to come back to this excruciating waiting game especially when I don’t see her eat. Her fate may be what it is but how can I keep her as comfortable as possible?

 

[jeff kushner]

Welcome to the club Rik....!

It sure looks to me that your heart is in the right place......and he's alive so relax...and don't fall into the trap of personifying everything he does, you will simply go crazy and we don't want to lose a new member<lol>........those guys are pretty tough and the pros here have taken the time to ensure the Care sheets are correct.

Did you inspect his rear legs? Sometimes you have to pull them out to see in there...a ball of bark/etc can make it hard for them to use their legs but it gets stuck in there.

What was her "diet" at the pet shop? Many times, they will feed dog/cat food kibbles, setting your guy up for a "gut-wrenching" experience b/c of the animal fat content. He will get over it but you'll see some funny looking urates come from him.

Lastly, have you read the care-sheets here? Kinda looks like you did but I rarely sugarcoat things, so I ask. DO so if you only skimmed them.....

The care sheets here are 2nd to none, the advice you find here is correct, or a mod will correct it, it's their job to do so, so that your little guy can get the best care possible.

Good luck!

jeff

 

[zolasmum]

Welcome -I just wanted to emphasise what Jeff has said - and don't panic. I would suggest you chop her food up really small, and mix it up a bit, so he gets used to different flavours.
He/she looks so cute. Has he got a name yet ?
Angie

 

[Jacqui]

*hugs* a warm welcome to you. Now please just stop what you are doing. Not his care, YOUR care. Those "shouldas", "couldas" and "if onlys" have to stop. The past is the past and can not be changed. Don't allow it to eat and at you and waste valuable time, energy and enjoyment of what you still have. Keep working on improving today.

*steps off soapbox*

 

[Jacqui]

P.s. are you cutting his food fine? In the picture it looks like large pieces. I would be fine cutting it for now. Might try the carrot soaks, too.

 

[Jacqui]

One quick question, his shell is still firm right?

 

[wellington]

I agree with all above.
Cut the food up small we do this for babies. Once he gets going good on eating you can leave some of it big so he has to fight a bit to get a bite off.
The basking temp needs to be 95-100 which I believe is 38C get the basking up. They have to be able to bask at those temps to properly digest their food.
The rest of the enclosure needs to never drop below 80F day and night.
The screen will block most of the uvb so het that under the screen or eliminate the screen altogether.
Cucumber should not be fed unless a baby is dehydrated then we suggest watery foods for a bit.
It won't hurt to put pureed carrot baby food in her warm water soaks. I would also add baby pedialyte.
Also after wetting the substrate with warm water pat it down tight. Sometimes babies have a hard time walking on the loose stuff.

 

[Tom]

Hi! I wish it was in better spirits writing this. I’ve been reading threads here pretty regularly for the past month trying to correct my mistakes. Guilt of not being prepared coming into owning a tort has been eating me up and I’m afraid my baby is suffering from first time keeper failure 😞 I’ve basically made every beginner mistake it seems. I could give a detailed history but in attempt to keep this short…

I have a leopard tortoise hatchling that I was told was about a month old when I bought her from a local reptile store. I’ve had her for 8 weeks now so that makes her about 3 months old. Only started weighing her a couple weeks ago when she was 30g and now 32g, nothing in the past week.

My panic of realizing my wrongdoing tricked me into paying a vet only to tell me to change substrate to carpet and to cut up her food to help her eat more. Her eating was never much. She goes at it when she does but stops after her tiny fill. Started with dandelion greens and mustard greens. At some point she only cared for cactus and now cucumber, which I was able to trick her with last night into some bites of mazuri. Today no go.

Reptile store sold me a 20 gallon screen top with a CFL and red spot bulb. Reptibark for substrate but not a clue to keep moist. It was ignorant bliss for first couple weeks until she started dragging hind legs. The only thing I might’ve done right was daily warm soaks.

Baby keeps her head high when I get the temp and humidity right. I switched out all the lights first of this month to a CHE, incandescent flood light and repti zoo T5 HO UV tube. All are on top of the screen however with the rest covered with foil. Temps stay at 29-34C and humidity 55-75%. Substrate now is eco earth coco fiber kept damp. She still drags but I’ll see her push up on a hind leg occasionally.

She’s been more fussy lately or what looks to me like crying. I absolutely hate that it could be she’s in awful pain. She stretches out a bit then quivers her bottom jaw. Is she suffering too much?

I get glimmers of hope all to come back to this excruciating waiting game especially when I don’t see her eat. Her fate may be what it is but how can I keep her as comfortable as possible?

View attachment 340859
View attachment 340863

Almost everyone goes through what you are going through. Don't beat yourself up. You found the right info and are putting forth every effort to help, and that is admirable and respectable.

Sounds like you found the right threads, but just in case, here is the care sheet:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Looks like you need a humid hide, and the HO tube needs to be mounted inside, underneath the screen.

The bad news is that almost no one starts baby leopards or sulcatas correctly, mistakenly thinking they are desert animals and need dry conditions. When the breeder and seller keep the baby too dry, sometimes irreparable damage is done, and the greatest tortoise keeper on earth can't save these babies. There is no way to know how much damage has been done, so the only thing a new keeper can do is try their best and hope for the best. Some of them pull through and make it, and some of them don't. Hopefully yours will be one of the ones that survive and go on to thrive. If not, I want you to realize that it is not your fault and that you did everything humanly possible to try and reverse someone else's mistakes.

Your questions are welcome, and good luck to you.

 

[rikadizo]

Welcome to the club Rik....!

It sure looks to me that your heart is in the right place......and he's alive so relax...and don't fall into the trap of personifying everything he does, you will simply go crazy and we don't want to lose a new member<lol>........those guys are pretty tough and the pros here have taken the time to ensure the Care sheets are correct.

Did you inspect his rear legs? Sometimes you have to pull them out to see in there...a ball of bark/etc can make it hard for them to use their legs but it gets stuck in there.

What was her "diet" at the pet shop? Many times, they will feed dog/cat food kibbles, setting your guy up for a "gut-wrenching" experience b/c of the animal fat content. He will get over it but you'll see some funny looking urates come from him.

Lastly, have you read the care-sheets here? Kinda looks like you did but I rarely sugarcoat things, so I ask. DO so if you only skimmed them.....

The care sheets here are 2nd to none, the advice you find here is correct, or a mod will correct it, it's their job to do so, so that your little guy can get the best care possible.

Good luck!

jeff

Hi Jeff! Thank you for the warm welcome it’s truly tort hazing if you ask me! My family definitely thinks I’ve gone nuts. Appreciate the kind words here to calm me down.

I try to pull on her rear legs but she always pulls them back in. They’re full out hanging at times when I’m carrying her out of soaks.

Diet at the store seemed to be leafy greens. I actually went back and saw her crew chowing down and a bit bigger in size. Maybe I chose the runt of the litter… couldn’t help the way she looked at me lol



I’ll go through the care sheets again in detail and certainly follow the recs given here in this thread.

Thanks again,
Erika

 

[rikadizo]

Welcome -I just wanted to emphasise what Jeff has said - and don't panic. I would suggest you chop her food up really small, and mix it up a bit, so he gets used to different flavours.
He/she looks so cute. Has he got a name yet ?
Angie

Thanks Angie! I’ve chopped up a Santa Barbara mix (escarole, endive and radicchio) with some dandelion greens and collard greens but she pays no attention to it. Tried coating in cucumber juice and not much interest yet. I’ll keep doing so but yes I may need to find something new to catch her attention… She was doing a beak snapping thing even with the little chopped up greens. I think she likes taking a chomp out of the cactus bits.

We’ve been calling him/her Snow. No idea if she’s actually a snow leopard but the label at the store said “hypo/possible snow” and name stuck.

Thanks,
Erika

 

[rikadizo]

*hugs* a warm welcome to you. Now please just stop what you are doing. Not his care, YOUR care. Those "shouldas", "couldas" and "if onlys" have to stop. The past is the past and can not be changed. Don't allow it to eat and at you and waste valuable time, energy and enjoyment of what you still have. Keep working on improving today.

*steps off soapbox*

Jacqui, thank you for the reality check! My mom told me same but it somehow means more coming from someone who sees and knows the tortoise journey. Really put a smile on my face this morning.

Definitely will try the carrot soaks! I usually chop the food up now but sometimes get rushed thinking she won’t even touch it. She’s been good at biting off romaine, dandelion and mustard greens but I guess that was before.

Shell still feels firm. The plastron I can’t remember if it was always this soft but some spots I can push in a little.

Many thanks,
Erika

 

[rikadizo]

I agree with all above.
Cut the food up small we do this for babies. Once he gets going good on eating you can leave some of it big so he has to fight a bit to get a bite off.
The basking temp needs to be 95-100 which I believe is 38C get the basking up. They have to be able to bask at those temps to properly digest their food.
The rest of the enclosure needs to never drop below 80F day and night.
The screen will block most of the uvb so het that under the screen or eliminate the screen altogether.
Cucumber should not be fed unless a baby is dehydrated then we suggest watery foods for a bit.
It won't hurt to put pureed carrot baby food in her warm water soaks. I would also add baby pedialyte.
Also after wetting the substrate with warm water pat it down tight. Sometimes babies have a hard time walking on the loose stuff.

All noted! I will be applying these changes. Patted the whole substrate down this morning.

The spot below basking bulb is 96F when I check with my temp gun. Glad to know more heat than less is better. I’ve been placing her below the CHE, though not directly in the middle, at night since it’s gotten colder. Planning to put tape around the glass…

Checking temps is still uncertain to me. I have a digital in the middle which is my main compass. Place two others in the front corners on the substrate which show me high humidity and temp no less than 79F.

Thank you,
Erika

 

[rikadizo]

Almost everyone goes through what you are going through. Don't beat yourself up. You found the right info and are putting forth every effort to help, and that is admirable and respectable.

Sounds like you found the right threads, but just in case, here is the care sheet:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Looks like you need a humid hide, and the HO tube needs to be mounted inside, underneath the screen.

The bad news is that almost no one starts baby leopards or sulcatas correctly, mistakenly thinking they are desert animals and need dry conditions. When the breeder and seller keep the baby too dry, sometimes irreparable damage is done, and the greatest tortoise keeper on earth can't save these babies. There is no way to know how much damage has been done, so the only thing a new keeper can do is try their best and hope for the best. Some of them pull through and make it, and some of them don't. Hopefully yours will be one of the ones that survive and go on to thrive. If not, I want you to realize that it is not your fault and that you did everything humanly possible to try and reverse someone else's mistakes.

Your questions are welcome, and good luck to you.

Thanks so much for your reply, Tom. It sounds like you all understand what I’m going through. I’ll work on the humid hide and getting the HO tube inside. I’ve gotten her under the sun only twice for ten mins at a time and she seemed to benefit from it. It’s a cold week in LA here but I want to get her out any sunny chance I can.

Trying to give her the best possible chance. I really do appreciate all the advice here!!

Many thanks,
Erika

 

[zolasmum]

Thanks so much for your reply, Tom. It sounds like you all understand what I’m going through. I’ll work on the humid hide and getting the HO tube inside. I’ve gotten her under the sun only twice for ten mins at a time and she seemed to benefit from it. It’s a cold week in LA here but I want to get her out any sunny chance I can.

Trying to give her the best possible chance. I really do appreciate all the advice here!!

Many thanks,
Erika

Very best wishes to you and little Snow - everyone is hoping for the best. Tortoises are remarkably tough - they have fighting spirit, and you are giving her all the help you can - Good luck.
Angie

 

[wellington]

Jacqui, thank you for the reality check! My mom told me same but it somehow means more coming from someone who sees and knows the tortoise journey. Really put a smile on my face this morning.

Definitely will try the carrot soaks! I usually chop the food up now but sometimes get rushed thinking she won’t even touch it. She’s been good at biting off romaine, dandelion and mustard greens but I guess that was before.

Shell still feels firm. The plastron I can’t remember if it was always this soft but some spots I can push in a little. View attachment 340881

Many thanks,
Erika

It's normal for them to be very slightly pliable at a young age.

 

[jeff kushner]

Awwww....Snow, what a unique name for a turtle, to me anyway!

You tossed a pretty nice spiral Ric by posting here....., the talent level of the people that responded to you, well, you got some of the aces here....

You're in good hands now......."The Tortoise Forum-The Good Hands people" ......

 

[rikadizo]

Everyone, I am heartbroken to report Snow’s gone…

I don’t know where I went wrong if it was something just within the last couple hours. Maybe I put too much stress on her while I was fixing up the uv tube inside the tank? I kept her in box with heating and light. Did I handle her too much? Did I press on her soft shell too hard?

I can’t tell you why but I felt it today that she needed me with her. I went home early from work because I couldn’t concentrate. I thought I had to get the tube close to help her as her shell was getting soft. Maybe if I’d left her alone she’d still be here…

Her last moments was opening her mouth. Perhaps that was gasping for air? I took it as cries for help and as I needed to do something. I should’ve left her alone. I’m sorry everyone. I was too late to get things right.

Thank you all for your kindness and time to give advice.

 

[zolasmum]

Everyone, I am heartbroken to report Snow’s gone…

I don’t know where I went wrong if it was something just within the last couple hours. Maybe I put too much stress on her while I was fixing up the uv tube inside the tank? I kept her in box with heating and light. Did I handle her too much? Did I press on her soft shell too hard?

I can’t tell you why but I felt it today that she needed me with her. I went home early from work because I couldn’t concentrate. I thought I had to get the tube close to help her as her shell was getting soft. Maybe if I’d left her alone she’d still be here…

Her last moments was opening her mouth. Perhaps that was gasping for air? I took it as cries for help and as I needed to do something. I should’ve left her alone. I’m sorry everyone. I was too late to get things right.

Thank you all for your kindness and time to give advice.

So very very sorry - you have tried so hard to help her, and you mustn't blame yourself - these things happen - sometimes baby tortoises are sold who have damage or weakness from the beginning, and nothing can help them. Don't let this put you off from trying again - you are the sort of caring person some little tortoise will be just waiting for in the future.
Very best wishes from Angie

 

[TheLastGreen]

I'm really sorry for your loss, I hope you know you did everything, and absolutely everything possible to ensure the good health and happiness of your tort💔
You know, I find this to be an exceptionaly rare case. You improved your torts condition, extremely quickly, to absolute perfection.
I'm no expert on it, but your torts looks like it was kept too dry just after hatching, as in the breeders fault, you can almost see it on the plastron, and where the yolk sack was connected, that area doesn't look healthy.
As @zolasmum said, when torts are started wrong, it's causes almost irrepareble damage to them, and eventually they die.
It wasn't at all that you picked her up, changed and implented UV or checked the shells firmness.
I wasn't going to to post, I know it's gut wrenching, but it struck me that any little leopard would be extremely grateful and lucky to be in your care .
When you feel ready, and if you would ever want to try again, I'd recommend you contact a breeder like @Tom

 

[Tom]

Everyone, I am heartbroken to report Snow’s gone…

I don’t know where I went wrong if it was something just within the last couple hours. Maybe I put too much stress on her while I was fixing up the uv tube inside the tank? I kept her in box with heating and light. Did I handle her too much? Did I press on her soft shell too hard?

I can’t tell you why but I felt it today that she needed me with her. I went home early from work because I couldn’t concentrate. I thought I had to get the tube close to help her as her shell was getting soft. Maybe if I’d left her alone she’d still be here…

Her last moments was opening her mouth. Perhaps that was gasping for air? I took it as cries for help and as I needed to do something. I should’ve left her alone. I’m sorry everyone. I was too late to get things right.

Thank you all for your kindness and time to give advice.

I'm sorry. Don't blame yourself. This was not your fault. That baby would not have made it in anyone's hands because of how it was started. Read this:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org