New to Hibernation!

[Sienna'sHermanns]

Hi all!

I'm Sienna and I have a 20yr old male Eastern Hermann called Ray that I've had for about three years. We're in the South of the UK!

This is the first year he's started slowing down in the colder months and after some reading I think he's preparing to hibernate though he's never done it before. My parents didn't hibernate him and apparently he's never slowed down this much before.

He's an indoor torty apart from sunny days in the summer. His open-top table is at 28°C at the warm end and 19-20°C at the cool end, humidity is usually at 35-40%. He's got fresh water year round and an Arcadia T5 UVB, a warm flood light and a ceramic heater that I use mostly at night. I've also got a Habistat thermostat to control his ceramic heater and one for the heat pad on the side of his enclosure.

He's 17.9cm long, 1133grams which I think is 0.197 on the Jackson Ratio so supposedly the correct weight for hibernation?

I've got a mini fridge and a thermometer with a probe to keep the fridge between 4-6°C and I have control over the temperature of my house for when it's time to wake up.

This year he's begun to slow down drastically though it's only mid September, I thought hibernation isn't until November?

I plan on doing the fridge method IF the vet says he's healthy enough to try this year but I'm incredibly nervous.

Is it too early for him to stop eating in preparation for the winter months?

Is it dangerous to put him into hibernation at the start of October and wake up around Christmas?

Any suggestions or advice would be great as I'm a first time owner and neither me nor my boy have tried this before. VERY nervous.

I've already started soaking him daily just in case he is preparing himself for an "early" hibernation.

Thank you all! Exited to learn how to take care of my Ray.

 

[Sienna'sHermanns]

Also, here's some photos in case they were needed, hopefully I'm doing this right.

His eye was puffy in this photo because I had the wrong bedding but that's been sorted now, I have coir soil and a wood chip bag from the pet store. (I hope that's correct?)

I know his house isn't big enough but unfortunately I don't have the space for a larger table yet, hopefully moving house next year but I do get him out daily for a wonder around the carpeted rooms!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome!

The cooler side sounds a bit too cold for a day temperature, you want the ambient temperature closer to 75-80f during the day, even 85f if you’re wanting to try perking him up a bit, and directly under the bulb he needs a 95-100f basking spot. Humidity is better kept in the 40-50 range, 35 is a bit too low.

Also, here's some photos in case they were needed, hopefully I'm doing this right.

His eye was puffy in this photo because I had the wrong bedding but that's been sorted now, I have coir soil and a wood chip bag from the pet store. (I hope that's correct?)

I know his house isn't big enough but unfortunately I don't have the space for a larger table yet, hopefully moving house next year but I do get him out daily for a wonder around the carpeted rooms!

Definitely appreciate the photos thank you! Few things need addressing, as you know first up is the size issue, this unfortunately far too small for an adult tortoise, but hopefully that can be rectified in the near future, if not, adaptations are going to be needed, it’s not safe to let them roam the floors of your home for a multitude of reasons, not just obvious hazards.

What brand of uv is that you’re using? I only ask because it appears to be mounted unusually high which could be making it defective in the enclosure.
What kind of basking bulb is it you’re using?

All that moss needs removing asap too! It can cause serious impaction if eaten. For a water dish a large shallow terracotta is considered the safest. For the substrate is it a coco coir yourself using with orchid bark? If so that’s fine.

I can see you have one of the domes mounted by just the clamp, that has been know to fail causing the bulb to fall in, it’s definitely best to hang securely, use chains to hang your lights, don’t have them hanging by just the wire.

Those gauge monitors are also notoriously inaccurate, I’d get yourself a temperature gun and some digital monitoring.

Also I believe this is a marginated tortoise, not a Herman, but let’s call in some experts to confirm that for you @Tom @Yvonne G @wellington if they are, humidity can probably be more in the 50-60 range.

Now for the brumation side of things, if this guy has never done it and remained perfectly healthy, I see no reason to change this routine. Keeping him in a well lit and appropriately hearted enclosure will stop him doing so, I’d recommend leaving the basking and ambient lighting on for 14 hours instead of 12.

Care for marginated and Herman’s are very similar from my understanding, so I’m going to link this thread I made, it goes over the right kind of bulbs, sizing, appropriately maintaining humidity, correct temps etc, there’s even a diet link

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

This one can also be good to go to avoid the wrong products

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

If you do however want to look into how to safely brumate, I suggest giving this thread a read

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

The others will help advise if there’s something I’ve missed/needs tweaking according the species you have, I’m not as familiar with marginated torts you see. All the best, feel free to ask more questions once you’ve read the threads!

 

[Tom]

Also, here's some photos in case they were needed, hopefully I'm doing this right.

His eye was puffy in this photo because I had the wrong bedding but that's been sorted now, I have coir soil and a wood chip bag from the pet store. (I hope that's correct?)

I know his house isn't big enough but unfortunately I don't have the space for a larger table yet, hopefully moving house next year but I do get him out daily for a wonder around the carpeted rooms!

You are making a lot of mistakes and have a lot of misconceptions. But wait... That is not an insult and I'm not saying it to upset you. You are welcome here, and my intention is to help you understand what's wrong so that your tortoise will remain healthy and thrive. You are also not alone, in that almost everyone gets this same wrong info from these same wrong sources. You are not being attacked here. You are being helped, and we realize it can be a bit upsetting. Questions and conversation are welcome. I'll list a few specific issues, and then I'll link the correct info for you. After reading all of that, you'll have much better understanding of what is going on, and we can help you prevent some common disasters.

-The Jackson Ratio stuff is rubbish. Tortoises come in too many shapes and sizes for that to be of any benefit. Skip it.
-Vets don't know tortoise care. Vets know animal medicine and surgery. They know wound care. They know lots of great info, but they don't spend any time on tortoise husbandry in vet school. Many of them make terrible mistakes, misdiagnose and mistreat tortoises due to their ignorance. I believe most of them mean well, but they get their care info from the same wrong sources as everyone else.
-Loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster. It's not safe, it can't be made safe, it doesn't matter how closely you supervise. We see deaths, injures, sickness and impaction on the regular here on this forum and in person too, because people realize it's not safe too late. Keep your tortoise in its enclosure, and make the enclosure large enough to suit your tortoises needs. 4x8 feet is a good minimum. The tortoise doesn't care if you don't have the space or the money to do that. That is what the tortoise needs.
-Heat pads are not safe for tortoises. Replace that with another CHE or some other safe heating method.

Here are the threads I mentioned:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

Don't be mad. You came here for help, and help is what we are offering. This may not be what you wanted to hear, but it's what you needed to hear. Questions are welcome. Feel free to argue your points, and ask for more clarification on any of this. You've joined a wonderful community of tortoise keepers here, and we like to see healthy tortoises and happy tortoise keepers.

 

[Sienna'sHermanns]

Hello and welcome!

The cooler side sounds a bit too cold for a day temperature, you want the ambient temperature closer to 75-80f during the day, even 85f if you’re wanting to try perking him up a bit, and directly under the bulb he needs a 95-100f basking spot. Humidity is better kept in the 40-50 range, 35 is a bit too low.


Definitely appreciate the photos thank you! Few things need addressing, as you know first up is the size issue, this unfortunately far too small for an adult tortoise, but hopefully that can be rectified in the near future, if not, adaptations are going to be needed, it’s not safe to let them roam the floors of your home for a multitude of reasons, not just obvious hazards.

What brand of uv is that you’re using? I only ask because it appears to be mounted unusually high which could be making it defective in the enclosure.
What kind of basking bulb is it you’re using?

All that moss needs removing asap too! It can cause serious impaction if eaten. For a water dish a large shallow terracotta is considered the safest. For the substrate is it a coco coir yourself using with orchid bark? If so that’s fine.

I can see you have one of the domes mounted by just the clamp, that has been know to fail causing the bulb to fall in, it’s definitely best to hang securely, use chains to hang your lights, don’t have them hanging by just the wire.

Those gauge monitors are also notoriously inaccurate, I’d get yourself a temperature gun and some digital monitoring.

Also I believe this is a marginated tortoise, not a Herman, but let’s call in some experts to confirm that for you @Tom @Yvonne G @wellington if they are, humidity can probably be more in the 50-60 range.

Now for the brumation side of things, if this guy has never done it and remained perfectly healthy, I see no reason to change this routine. Keeping him in a well lit and appropriately hearted enclosure will stop him doing so, I’d recommend leaving the basking and ambient lighting on for 14 hours instead of 12.

Care for marginated and Herman’s are very similar from my understanding, so I’m going to link this thread I made, it goes over the right kind of bulbs, sizing, appropriately maintaining humidity, correct temps etc, there’s even a diet link

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

This one can also be good to go to avoid the wrong products

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

If you do however want to look into how to safely brumate, I suggest giving this thread a read

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

The others will help advise if there’s something I’ve missed/needs tweaking according the species you have, I’m not as familiar with marginated torts you see. All the best, feel free to ask more questions once you’ve read the threads!

Wow thank you so much!

The UVB is far too high but I've got proper stands for all three lamps in the post and on the way. It's an Arcadia T5 I think which definitely will be lowered as soon as I'm able to get the stands up, I won't be using the clamp as soon as I get a safer set-up.

I'll remove the moss now and see if I can find a more suitable dish.

Do you think his reason for not eating and sleeping more could be that he's too cold? The vet said he's not got any signs of illness but I'm taking him back down for some X-rays because he also has weak back legs and that's a concern for me at the moment.

And lastly, do Hermann or marginated NEED to brumate or is it just something they'd do in the wild?

 

[Sienna'sHermanns]

You are making a lot of mistakes and have a lot of misconceptions. But wait... That is not an insult and I'm not saying it to upset you. You are welcome here, and my intention is to help you understand what's wrong so that your tortoise will remain healthy and thrive. You are also not alone, in that almost everyone gets this same wrong info from these same wrong sources. You are not being attacked here. You are being helped, and we realize it can be a bit upsetting. Questions and conversation are welcome. I'll list a few specific issues, and then I'll link the correct info for you. After reading all of that, you'll have much better understanding of what is going on, and we can help you prevent some common disasters.

-The Jackson Ratio stuff is rubbish. Tortoises come in too many shapes and sizes for that to be of any benefit. Skip it.
-Vets don't know tortoise care. Vets know animal medicine and surgery. They know wound care. They know lots of great info, but they don't spend any time on tortoise husbandry in vet school. Many of them make terrible mistakes, misdiagnose and mistreat tortoises due to their ignorance. I believe most of them mean well, but they get their care info from the same wrong sources as everyone else.
-Loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster. It's not safe, it can't be made safe, it doesn't matter how closely you supervise. We see deaths, injures, sickness and impaction on the regular here on this forum and in person too, because people realize it's not safe too late. Keep your tortoise in its enclosure, and make the enclosure large enough to suit your tortoises needs. 4x8 feet is a good minimum. The tortoise doesn't care if you don't have the space or the money to do that. That is what the tortoise needs.
-Heat pads are not safe for tortoises. Replace that with another CHE or some other safe heating method.

Here are the threads I mentioned:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

Don't be mad. You came here for help, and help is what we are offering. This may not be what you wanted to hear, but it's what you needed to hear. Questions are welcome. Feel free to argue your points, and ask for more clarification on any of this. You've joined a wonderful community of tortoise keepers here, and we like to see healthy tortoises and happy tortoise keepers.

Honestly all of that was really helpful!

I'm more than happy to hear all the things I'm doing wrong so I can fix it asap. Thank you so much for all the information, if I can't give him what he needs then he'll be re-homed to someone who knows what they're doing and is capable of taking better care.

I won't attempt brumation, it seems like I best put my focus on sorting his house right now.

What's your opinion on buying a shed and insulating it properly? Would an "indoor" tortoise be alright adapting to shed life?

Again, thank you so much! No offence taken and I'm the opposite of upset, I'm so glad I reached out before anything bad happened.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Wow thank you so much!

The UVB is far too high but I've got proper stands for all three lamps in the post and on the way. It's an Arcadia T5 I think which definitely will be lowered as soon as I'm able to get the stands up, I won't be using the clamp as soon as I get a safer set-up.

I'll remove the moss now and see if I can find a more suitable dish.

Do you think his reason for not eating and sleeping more could be that he's too cold? The vet said he's not got any signs of illness but I'm taking him back down for some X-rays because he also has weak back legs and that's a concern for me at the moment.

And lastly, do Hermann or marginated NEED to brumate or is it just something they'd do in the wild?

No problem at all!

Sounds good, the Arcadia uv bulbs are one of the best out there! 18-20 inches from the top of the tortoises shell is what you want to aim for

Lots of garden sections sell the terracotta saucers for cheap

It could definitely be that he’s too cool yes, I doubt he’s being exposed to extreme lows, hence he’s not showing signs of illness, but it’ll definitely lower his activity and appetite which obviously over time isn’t good. Once you upgrade your monitoring and get a temp gun, you’ll have more accurate temp reading

Weak back legs could be an indication of multiple things, may I ask when you noticed that start? or would you say he’s always had that weakness?

Technically no, they don’t need to, though wild ones of course do and many are of the belief that if they do so in the wild, they should do so in captivity, I can’t argue with that logic. But many keepers have older brumating species they keep up year round, so far there’s be no noticeable ill effects from this. Personally, seeing as yours is the age he is and has never done so, I’m inclined to say keep him awake year round

 

[Sienna'sHermanns]

No problem at all!

Sounds good, the Arcadia uv bulbs are one of the best out there! 18-20 inches from the top of the tortoises shell is what you want to aim for

Lots of garden sections sell the terracotta saucers for cheap

It could definitely be that he’s too cool yes, I doubt he’s being exposed to extreme lows, hence he’s not showing signs of illness, but it’ll definitely lower his activity and appetite which obviously over time isn’t good. Once you upgrade your monitoring and get a temp gun, you’ll have more accurate temp reading

Weak back legs could be an indication of multiple things, may I ask when you noticed that start? or would you say he’s always had that weakness?

Technically no, they don’t need to, though wild ones of course do and many are of the belief that if they do so in the wild, they should do so in captivity, I can’t argue with that logic. But many keepers have older brumating species they keep up year round, so far there’s be no noticeable ill effects from this. Personally, seeing as yours is the age he is and has never done so, I’m inclined to say keep him awake year round

He's had the weak back legs for as long as I can remember, my parents had him since I was born and I'm 21 now so he must be around 23?

Honestly they weren't great owners. He didn't have a UV light with them and lived on the floor. The reason I have him now was because I got so annoyed that they were neglecting him and basically demanded that they give him to me so I can try and help him somehow.

They said he was "weak at birth" and got him for free from a lady who didn't want him I'm just hoping I can give him something better now, I hope the damage they caused can be undone or at least eased!

 

[Tom]

Honestly all of that was really helpful!

I'm more than happy to hear all the things I'm doing wrong so I can fix it asap. Thank you so much for all the information, if I can't give him what he needs then he'll be re-homed to someone who knows what they're doing and is capable of taking better care.

I won't attempt brumation, it seems like I best put my focus on sorting his house right now.

What's your opinion on buying a shed and insulating it properly? Would an "indoor" tortoise be alright adapting to shed life?

Again, thank you so much! No offence taken and I'm the opposite of upset, I'm so glad I reached out before anything bad happened.

Whew! That's a relief. We never know how that is going to go...

It makes no difference to the tortoise whether he's in your living room or a shed outside, as long as the enclosure size, temps, humidity, and lighting are good.

You can do brumation, but you've got a few weeks before you begin the process. Sometimes the tortoise wants to brumate even if you don't.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

He's had the weak back legs for as long as I can remember, my parents had him since I was born and I'm 21 now so he must be around 23?

Honestly they weren't great owners. He didn't have a UV light with them and lived on the floor. The reason I have him now was because I got so annoyed that they were neglecting him and basically demanded that they give him to me so I can try and help him somehow.

They said he was "weak at birth" and got him for free from a lady who didn't want him I'm just hoping I can give him something better now, I hope the damage they caused can be undone or at least eased!

I’m so glad you’ve taken him inthey likely didn’t realise the harm they were causing.

I don’t suppose you’d mind posting a side profile of his entire body? If you had one that is, don’t worry if you don’t for now, I only say so members can get a better look at his shell for you, lack of uv, bad diet, incorrect housing etc can unfortunately lead to some MBD(metabolic bone disease) being present, shell condition is a visual indicator sometimes, so it might be helpful to have a better look. Either way though moving forward, so long as husbandry is corrected, there’s no reason this guy can’t live a long perfectly healthy normal life with you, it’s just good to be aware of

 

[Sienna'sHermanns]

I’m so glad you’ve taken him inthey likely didn’t realise the harm they were causing.

I don’t suppose you’d mind posting a side profile of his entire body? If you had one that is, don’t worry if you don’t for now, I only say so members can get a better look at his shell for you, lack of uv, bad diet, incorrect housing etc can unfortunately lead to some MBD(metabolic bone disease) being present, shell condition is a visual indicator sometimes, so it might be helpful to have a better look. Either way though moving forward, so long as husbandry is corrected, there’s no reason this guy can’t live a long perfectly healthy normal life with you, it’s just good to be aware of

Not sure if these are any good, being on the kitchen floor and on a bed is obviously not where he'll be when I have his new house sorted! He'll never be on that awful laminate flooring again

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Not sure if these are any good, being on the kitchen floor and on a bed is obviously not where he'll be when I have his new house sorted! He'll never be on that awful laminate flooring again

I don’t think I can personally say anything affirmative on the MBD side of things from the angle, though I can definitely see some pyramiding, which is to be expected given his upbringing.

Looking at these photos though, I am wondering if you have a Greek subspecies here, @Tom what do you think? Let me tag @HermanniChris too

 

[EppsDynasty]

@Sienna'sHermanns ... Kudos to you! Great person you sound like, a little explanation..... Taking on a responsibility that you are not very familiar with, Taking the time to 'Learn' everything you can to be responsible and treat this responsibility serious, Able to be told "That's wrong" and not be offended, Willing to do what needs to be done and figure it out!
You will find the information you find here is completely different than info you'll get from a variety of sources (Pet Store, FaceBook, etc.), this is because we all care for torts and deeply care that they are taken care of properly. You are getting great info and your tort will appreciate it greatly, just wanted to point out your great attitude towards this.

 

[Sienna'sHermanns]

@Sienna'sHermanns ... Kudos to you! Great person you sound like, a little explanation..... Taking on a responsibility that you are not very familiar with, Taking the time to 'Learn' everything you can to be responsible and treat this responsibility serious, Able to be told "That's wrong" and not be offended, Willing to do what needs to be done and figure it out!
You will find the information you find here is completely different than info you'll get from a variety of sources (Pet Store, FaceBook, etc.), this is because we all care for torts and deeply care that they are taken care of properly. You are getting great info and your tort will appreciate it greatly, just wanted to point out your great attitude towards this.

Thank you so much! I'm absolutely ready to give my torty the best life he can have from now on and I'll undoubtedly be back for advice.

This place seems like a safe space to ask questions and learn from the people with experience. I really appreciate any and all criticism and pointers

 

[zolasmum]

Thank you so much! I'm absolutely ready to give my torty the best life he can have from now on and I'll undoubtedly be back for advice.

This place seems like a safe space to ask questions and learn from the people with experience. I really appreciate any and all criticism and pointers

Hello from Devon.We have a Hermanns tortoise -Zola -who is now 24 years old. We have never hibernated him, and he is strong and healthy - we think he is wonderful, and definitely the most important person in the family. I just wish this forum had been around when we first got him. I'm glad you have found it, as you can really trust people here - and make new friends too.
Best wishes from Angie

 

[EppsDynasty]

Thank you so much! I'm absolutely ready to give my torty the best life he can have from now on and I'll undoubtedly be back for advice.

This place seems like a safe space to ask questions and learn from the people with experience. I really appreciate any and all criticism and pointers

You are definitely not alone, @zolasmum is a great resource and there are many others on your side of the pond.

 

[zolasmum]

I've been re-reading your posts and looking at your photos - I wonder if some of the "weakness" in his legs is actually due to him not getting enough exercise, and also his claws look rather long - which would, of course, make walking harder. It might be a good idea to get them trimmed by a vet - if you can watch the vet doing it, you could probably do it yourself in the future, if necessary. (Zola never has this problem, as he loves to walk and climb on rocks )
One very important thing - you haven't told us his name yet !
Angie