SOS Marginated Tortoise MBD Advice

[scoutley]

Our Marginated, Atty, has not been himself lately, not eating as much, not moving as much, has puffy eyes, soft shell on the bottom, looks to be opening his mouth alot, etc. We took him to the emergency vet today but they did not seem to know what they were doing, we don't trust their advice. Seeking some help please!

His shell is a little soft on the bottom, and we can't tell if its flattening on the top too? Looking back at old photos he seems to look about the same but now we're in our heads. Can anyone help us understand what we should do? The vet recommended a respiratory antibiotic as well as Calcium, Vitamin A and Vitamin C shots... For respiratory, they couldn't confirm anything without $900 + worth of tests, we don't see any bubbles or snot or anything.

We heard that the vitamin A shots can be risky, we can put more calcium and vitamin d3 powder in his meals and give him more sunlight, but is that enough??

Any guidance is much appreciated, we are so worried about him.

Images 1 and 2 are from today, image 3 was from about 8 months ago.

 

[wellington]

What size enclosure is he in?
What are the temps? Basking temp? All over temp? Night temps?
What are you using for uvb?
What type of bulb for basking?
What are you using for night heat?
Diet?.

 

[wellington]

@Yvonne G

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

What size enclosure is he in?
What are the temps? Basking temp? All over temp? Night temps?
What are you using for uvb?
What type of bulb for basking?
What are you using for night heat?
Diet?.

Answers to these questions will definitely help with the advising! A photo of the full set up would be good too! Welcome to the forum!

 

[scoutley]

Hi all! Thanks for the responses!
What size enclosure is he in? - we built him a 3 story enclosure, each floor is about 1.5x4ft, he loves climbing all around(pics attached)
What are the temps? Basking temp? All over temp? Night temps? - we live in Ohio, we keep our home temperature around 73-74F, he has the heat lamp and sits in the sun (through the window tho)
What are you using for uvb? We do not have a UVB, we kept reading mixed reviews on this and were hesitant to use it
What type of bulb for basking? 100w basking lamp
What are you using for night heat? We keep our temp at 73-74F inside
Diet?. - Mostly Lettuce and Kale, he is very picky and won't eat pellets anymore, I still offer them to him tho, occasionally strawberries too. I put the Calcium powder on his meals but he makes an effort to avoid it, it's interesting.

Another note i forgot to mention, he's about 5 year old. so we used to have more moisture, soak him alot more, more strict on pellets, etc. We read they only really need all that when they are little, but open to suggestions!!

 

[wellington]

You have to give him uvb, the window won't work as uvb does not go thru glass, very very important they have uvb. If you can get him outside in the sun, but provide shade, then he doesn't need uvb inside, but only when you can get him out.
The diet is very poor, you have to add a much better diet and sprinkle calcium powder, a small pinch on it 3 times a week.
Day time temps should be around 80 and then your house temps are fine for night.
The basking temp needs to reach 95-100.
At his size, he should be living outside in the warm months.
With the lack of uvb and a proper diet he likely does have MBD.
Get things corrected ASAP before he gets worse.

 

[wellington]

Stay away from lettuces and fruit.

Collard greens, mustard greens, radicchio, endive and turnip greens will suffice in moderation.

Pesticide-free weeds such as dandelion, clover, plantain, catsear, thistle and vetch make for excellent food items. Mulberry leaves are also recommended. Mazuri tortoise diet (original blend) several times a week.

 

[scoutley]

You have to give him uvb, the window won't work as uvb does not go thru glass, very very important they have uvb. If you can get him outside in the sun, but provide shade, then he doesn't need uvb inside, but only when you can get him out.
The diet is very poor, you have to add a much better diet and sprinkle calcium powder, a small pinch on it 3 times a week.
Day time temps should be around 80 and then your house temps are fine for night.
The basking temp needs to reach 95-100.
At his size, he should be living outside in the warm months.
With the lack of uvb and a proper diet he likely does have MBD.
Get things corrected ASAP before he gets worse.

Thank you, I'll buy the lamp and focus on the sun more!

He refuses to eat pellets and the calcium powder, any recommendations on getting him to eat them? I do put them but he doesn't touch it ever.

 

[ataturt]

Follow up question (I am Atty's other parent), we will do our best to course correct with UVB and calcium now. The vet wanted us to purchase a month supply of calcium and vitamin A+D together shots for him, as well as antibiotics for what they are assuming might be RI although they did not do tests to make sure and he has no snot/bubbles. Are we okay skipping these?

 

[EppsDynasty]

I'm not the expert to ask this but in my opinion skip the vet you don't trust. Injections are a 'Very' common thing for vets with no idea what the heck their doing, you know to bill you for something. All vitamins are pretty easy to give through food without injections. Vitamin A has some pretty bad side effects like making their skin slough off.
I am sure there will be real experts chiming in shortly.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Follow up question (I am Atty's other parent), we will do our best to course correct with UVB and calcium now. The vet wanted us to purchase a month supply of calcium and vitamin A+D together shots for him, as well as antibiotics for what they are assuming might be RI although they did not do tests to make sure and he has no snot/bubbles. Are we okay skipping these?

I’m my opinion I wouldn’t do the shots no, with a better diet and supplements they should be getting all the vitamins they need, with the potential RI I wouldn’t medicate just yet, I’d try upping the temps first as suggested by wellington, if he doesn’t improve, I’d want some tests ran before being given a whole course, but that’s just me.
As mentioned above, countless vets try and use vitamin injections as a first port of call, if you’re guy hasn’t been receiving everything he needs, the shots might not necessarily be harmful to him in particular, but generally speaking, these injections can do more harm than good. Fixing the diet is a much better plan of action.

This thread below isn’t technically the care sheet for your species, but from my understanding, their care is quite similar, I thought I’d link it cause there’s a useful diet link at the bottom, along with lots of visual examples for the correct kind of equipment to use. Yours is definitely big enough to be living outdoors when the weather allows, but hopefully this will give you a better idea of how to set things indoors in terms of bulb placement etc

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

You might also find this one handy in avoiding the wrong kind of bulbs etc

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Hope this helps!

 

[wellington]

Follow up question (I am Atty's other parent), we will do our best to course correct with UVB and calcium now. The vet wanted us to purchase a month supply of calcium and vitamin A+D together shots for him, as well as antibiotics for what they are assuming might be RI although they did not do tests to make sure and he has no snot/bubbles. Are we okay skipping these?

Yes, skip the vets suggestions.
Get the changes needed made.
As for the food, pellets and calcium, you have to out smart them.
Get the mazuri pellets not the LS one, just plain tortoise mazuri pellets. At first take one or two pellets and soak them till mushy. Smear them on the food that your tort likes the best after you have chopped it up small. At the same time chop up some better foods and mix that in along with a pinch of calcium and get vitamin powder too. Spritz with water. As he gets used to eating this, use less and less of the not so good lettuce and more and more of the better stuff

 

[Maggie3fan]

Follow up question (I am Atty's other parent), we will do our best to course correct with UVB and calcium now. The vet wanted us to purchase a month supply of calcium and vitamin A+D together shots for him, as well as antibiotics for what they are assuming might be RI although they did not do tests to make sure and he has no snot/bubbles. Are we okay skipping these?

This Vet does not sound like anyone I would go to...Vitamen A shots "can" cause the skin to slough off at the injection site. Fix a small place outside so he can get UVB from the sun. Don't be buying any "monthly" anything...that's just greed. Soak that guy in 2 small jars of strained carrots baby food daily...The nutrition soaks in thru their cloaca and the soft spot under their neck...sounds strange, but it give them some nutrition. Yvonne told you to cut his food up small so he can just pick it up and his tongue will move the food thru. Please keep us posted and continue to ask questions and keep us posted...we care


this might help...

Candace Hersey-Benner, DVM
Roaring Brook Animal Hospital
60 Lovely Street, Canton, CT 06019
Tel: (860) 693-0214

Stratford

Dr.Thomas Milos
47 Nichols Avenue
Stratford, CT
Tel: (203) 378-8276

Dr.Louis Pieper
755 Barnum Avenue Cut Off
Stratford, CT
Tel: (203)378-0687

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I'm not the expert to ask this but in my opinion skip the vet you don't trust. Injections are a 'Very' common thing for vets with no idea what the heck their doing, you know to bill you for something. All vitamins are pretty easy to give through food without injections. Vitamin A has some pretty bad side effects like making their skin slough off.
I am sure there will be real experts chiming in shortly.

To most of us YOU are one of the "real" experts...lol

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm pretty sure your baby is suffering from MBD, which is quite painful and probably why he has diminished appetite.

Metabolic Bone Disease happens when the animal either hasn't been getting calcium, or hasn't been getting the right UVB to make the calcium work. Without UVB the calcium he eats just passes right on through the digestive tract.

If I'm right then what needs done is more real sunshine plus calcium rich foods.

 

[scoutley]

Thank you everyone, we really appreciate it. I will continue to send updates. I've ordered new food, UVB, calcium, got new greens and will build him something new for outside during the warm sunny days. At this rate will his shell be soft forever? Or if he's better it will harden again? How can we know he's getting better