Newbie Set Up

[Kala]

I got told off in a local vivarium selling group today. I just asked if anybody had any minimum 4ft by 1.5ft vivs for sale, purely because I’ve seen some AMAZING custom made ones with everything they need already included so thought I’d ask before completing my order. This is what I got… 😅

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Well... That happens... I would stay out of this fight.

Basically, they stand in the same camp as A.Highfield, as I see. And deep on this forum there is an incredible debate between him vs Tom and other experienced keepers on humidity and pyramiding. There were many good points from both sides, but unfortunately consensus hasn't been reached.

 

[Kala]

Well... That happens... I would stay out of this fight.

Basically, they stand in the same camp as A.Highfield, as I see. And deep on this forum there is an incredible debate between him vs Tom and other experienced keepers on humidity and pyramiding. There were many good points from both sides, but unfortunately consensus hasn't been reached.

It ended with the lady asking if I could signpost her to where I found this data as it goes against her knowledge. She did say she didn’t mean to agitate anybody and that she’s just fed up of nursing peoples tortoises back to health after people following bad advice. I linked her to Tom’s new people thread, and also his best way to raise temperature species thread. She wished me well, there were no bad feelings. Even if 1 other person takes a look at this forum and finds better advice for their tortoises, it will be worth the 10 minutes I spent defending myself 😂

 

[_The_Beast_]

I got told off in a local vivarium selling group today. I just asked if anybody had any minimum 4ft by 1.5ft vivs for sale, purely because I’ve seen some AMAZING custom made ones with everything they need already included so thought I’d ask before completing my order. This is what I got… 😅

You have sooooo much more patience than me. Cheers for trying and I hope more folks find their way here ♥️

 

[Tom]

It ended with the lady asking if I could signpost her to where I found this data as it goes against her knowledge. She did say she didn’t mean to agitate anybody and that she’s just fed up of nursing peoples tortoises back to health after people following bad advice. I linked her to Tom’s new people thread, and also his best way to raise temperature species thread. She wished me well, there were no bad feelings. Even if 1 other person takes a look at this forum and finds better advice for their tortoises, it will be worth the 10 minutes I spent defending myself 😂

I have no idea who Chris Newman is.

Our assertions are based on decades of trial and error with live animals in our care. Their assertions are based on decades old speculation about what they think is happening in the wild.

Long nails and beaks come from incorrect housing and diet. We typically see this in conjunction with MBD, which is in fact caused by lack of calcium or lack of D3. MBD is NOT caused by diet, unless they are saying that the diet is insufficient in calcium and or D3.

What you see from people following the old ways is pyramiding and stunted growth because they try to correct for their incorrect husbandry by starving the poor baby half to death.

I don't think baby Russians need 80% humidity. That is for tropical species. I also don't think 80% will hurt a baby Russian. My preference is to give them thick damp substrate to dig into and offer a humid hide so that they can create their own little humid microclimates.

 

[Tom]

Well... That happens... I would stay out of this fight.

Basically, they stand in the same camp as A.Highfield, as I see. And deep on this forum there is an incredible debate between him vs Tom and other experienced keepers on humidity and pyramiding. There were many good points from both sides, but unfortunately consensus hasn't been reached.

Consensus most definitely HAS been reached. Andy finally admitted he was wrong about the humidity thing after years of being hit over the head with evidence proving him wrong. He quietly recanted.

Also, at the end of that thread, he finally shared his great secret of how he raised a single smooth leopard tortoise. He did it in a large outdoor heated plastic tube-like green house sort of a thing. Basically, a warm humid closed chamber. The discussion ended soon after that admission. All that arguing and rudeness for him to finally admit that he is doing it EXACTLY how I was saying it needs to be done.

He is a skilled debater. Better than me to be sure, but he had one problem in that debate. He was wrong. I knew he was wrong because I had raised 100s of tortoises using the methods I was advocating, and he had not. In time, for people who stuck it out long enough, the facts became obvious.

 

[Kala]

He’s the CEO of REPTA and the NCRW apparently, I’ve also never heard of him.

Somebody on this thread said an 80/80 rule, 80 degrees and 80% humidity, that’s where I got the 80% from. If I should be aiming for a lower humidity, please let me know.

 

[Kala]

Everything is ordered! Well, all except the terracotta saucers as I wasn’t sure what size to get. What size would be best?

 

[Tom]

He’s the CEO of REPTA and the NCRW apparently, I’ve also never heard of him.

Somebody on this thread said an 80/80 rule, 80 degrees and 80% humidity, that’s where I got the 80% from. If I should be aiming for a lower humidity, please let me know.

The 80/80 thing is for tropical species like stars and sulcatas. Some people have sort of blended pieces and parts from the different care sheets.

The way to do it for temperate species is explained here:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Temperate species benefit from a greater thermal gradient, and cooler nights. Open topped enclosures with electric heating elements and basing lamps are WAY too dry for baby temperate species of tortoise, hence the recommendation for vivs for babies. Adult temperate species are usually fine in open topped tables, depending on room temperatures and humidity, and as long as the table is large enough. That is an important element that is often lost in these arguments. Housing for a baby is different than housing for an adult. Many people argue for open tables because their ADULT tortoise has been living that way for years and is fine. Many of those people have never raised a hatchling, and don't realize what effect the cold dry room air will have on a little baby. In any case, it is much easier to maintain the desired environmental parameters, whatever those may be, in a closed chamber, than in something with an open air top. That is just plain physics and I really don't see how that can be argued. We can argue about what conditions are best and why, but whatever those conditions are, they will be easier to maintain in something that is not open to cold dry room air. Unless cold dry room air is what someone wants in their enclosure...

I've been having this argument for more than a decade now and there is one common denominator in everyone who argues this point with me: They've never done it the way I recommended because they incorrectly think that its wrong. The next time you get into an argument like that, ask the other person how many times they have raised clutchmate tortoise babies side-by-side with some in a viv and an and some in an open table, and what were the results? When they get caught out like that, they usually get indignant and retort with something like: "Well I would never do it that way because its bad for them..." Right. You've NEVER done it that way and therefore have NO idea what you are talking about. The anger and insults are what comes next. Well I HAVE done it that way and have literally 1000s of living breathing examples of how well it works. I also did it "their" way for the first 20 years or so of tortoise keeping, so I know darn well what the results of doing it their way will be.

Question any and all of this. The more we explain, the more knowledge and understanding you will gain, and the better able you will be to defend your choices and hopefully help eradicate some of that old persistent ignorance that is so prevalent out in the world.

 

[Tom]

Everything is ordered! Well, all except the terracotta saucers as I wasn’t sure what size to get. What size would be best?

I start tiny hatchling with 4 inch saucers, and move up in size as they grow.

 

[Kala]

The 80/80 thing is for tropical species like stars and sulcatas. Some people have sort of blended pieces and parts from the different care sheets.

The way to do it for temperate species is explained here:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Temperate species benefit from a greater thermal gradient, and cooler nights. Open topped enclosures with electric heating elements and basing lamps are WAY too dry for baby temperate species of tortoise, hence the recommendation for vivs for babies. Adult temperate species are usually fine in open topped tables, depending on room temperatures and humidity, and as long as the table is large enough. That is an important element that is often lost in these arguments. Housing for a baby is different than housing for an adult. Many people argue for open tables because their ADULT tortoise has been living that way for years and is fine. Many of those people have never raised a hatchling, and don't realize what effect the cold dry room air will have on a little baby. In any case, it is much easier to maintain the desired environmental parameters, whatever those may be, in a closed chamber, than in something with an open air top. That is just plain physics and I really don't see how that can be argued. We can argue about what conditions are best and why, but whatever those conditions are, they will be easier to maintain in something that is not open to cold dry room air. Unless cold dry room air is what someone wants in their enclosure...

I've been having this argument for more than a decade now and there is one common denominator in everyone who argues this point with me: They've never done it the way I recommended because they incorrectly think that its wrong. The next time you get into an argument like that, ask the other person how many times they have raised clutchmate tortoise babies side-by-side with some in a viv and an and some in an open table, and what were the results? When they get caught out like that, they usually get indignant and retort with something like: "Well I would never do it that way because its bad for them..." Right. You've NEVER done it that way and therefore have NO idea what you are talking about. The anger and insults are what comes next. Well I HAVE done it that way and have literally 1000s of living breathing examples of how well it works. I also did it "their" way for the first 20 years or so of tortoise keeping, so I know darn well what the results of doing it their way will be.

Question any and all of this. The more we explain, the more knowledge and understanding you will gain, and the better able you will be to defend your choices and hopefully help eradicate some of that old persistent ignorance that is so prevalent out in the world.

I couldn’t find the recommended humidity in that care sheet and had re read the humidity section a few times, but have just found it in another part I think, 55-80?

 

[Kala]

I start tiny hatchling with 4 inch saucers, and move up in size as they grow.

Great thank you

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I couldn’t find the recommended humidity in that care sheet and had re read the humidity section a few times, but have just found it in another part I think, 55-80?

Yes, it's in the Pyramiding section. Basically, you will get these numbers by providing a temperature gradient in the closed chamber: the lowest humidity in the basking zone and the highest in the cold part.

 

[jaizei]

Consensus most definitely HAS been reached. Andy finally admitted he was wrong about the humidity thing after years of being hit over the head with evidence proving him wrong. He quietly recanted.

Also, at the end of that thread, he finally shared his great secret of how he raised a single smooth leopard tortoise. He did it in a large outdoor heated plastic tube-like green house sort of a thing. Basically, a warm humid closed chamber. The discussion ended soon after that admission. All that arguing and rudeness for him to finally admit that he is doing it EXACTLY how I was saying it needs to be done.

He is a skilled debater. Better than me to be sure, but he had one problem in that debate. He was wrong. I knew he was wrong because I had raised 100s of tortoises using the methods I was advocating, and he had not. In time, for people who stuck it out long enough, the facts became obvious.

When and where did Andy Highfield "quietly recant"?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

When and where did Andy Highfield "quietly recant"?

(I bet it was sarcasm, but I'll pretend it wasn't )
That's the last message from Andy: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-is-the-physiology-behind-pyramiding.83263/page-13#post-794202

Definitely, it was "quiet", but not sure about "recant".

From the articles on his website, I see that both Andy and Tom have somewhat aligned vision on what's good for tortoises, but have different directions on mitigating the problems.

 

[jaizei]

(I bet it was sarcasm, but I'll pretend it wasn't )
That's the last message from Andy: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-is-the-physiology-behind-pyramiding.83263/page-13#post-794202

Definitely, it was "quiet", but not sure about "recant".

From the articles on his website, I see that both Andy and Tom have somewhat aligned vision on what's good for tortoises, but have different directions on mitigating the problems.

Sarcasm on whose part? I was sincere, in that I have seen more recent writings from Andy/TT that are generally in line with what Andy was saying in that thread. If Andy has ever promoted constant high humidity (80%+), I'd like to see where.

The post you linked was Andy choosing to disengage rather than continue to beat his head against the wall. His penultimate post was describing his setup, presumably in the UK: They were raised in a polytunnel (18ft X 40 feet) with ambient humidity ranging from 40% to 60%. It would mostly be in the 50-55% range. I don't think that differs from what he has said previously or elsewhere. And it is most definitely not the type of 'warm humid closed chamber' Tom advocates for.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Sarcasm on whose part? I was sincere, in that I have seen more recent writings from Andy/TT that are generally in line with what Andy was saying in that thread. If Andy has ever promoted constant high humidity (80%+), I'd like to see where.

The post you linked was Andy choosing to disengage rather than continue to beat his head against the wall. His penultimate post was describing his setup, presumably in the UK: They were raised in a polytunnel (18ft X 40 feet) with ambient humidity ranging from 40% to 60%. It would mostly be in the 50-55% range. I don't think that differs from what he has said previously or elsewhere. And it is most definitely not the type of 'warm humid closed chamber' Tom advocates for.

"more recent writings from Andy/TT that are generally in line with what Andy was saying in that thread" - that's true and that why I've said that there were no consensus.

And Andy, of course, didn't advocate for 80/80 closed chambers nor do it now. He, nevertheless, admits the impact of the keratine desiccation on pyramiding (there is a co-authored article with F. Baines on his site). He just takes a different approach than Tom: instead of raising humidity he works on minimizing unfiltered IR-A exposure. A culmination was a "polytunnel 2.0" with UVB transparent plastics and no artificial lights.

The same difference in approaches is seen on "sand causes impactions" problem: Tom don't use sandy substrates at all. Andy suggests to adjust fiber levels in diet to "push" digested sand through intestines and avoid impaction. The latter is more naturalistic, but requires more efforts and knowledge.

Maybe the only thing, Tom and Andy seem to agree to is that a fridge is the safest way to brumate tortoises.

 

[Kala]

Hi all, the viv and all the accessories are finally here/tested (had a few faults with the glass runners and lamps so has taken a while).

Have a couple of questions re lighting;

Are these the coffee cup hooks you meant?
And what am I supposed to do with this LED light? I thought it was an all in one kit ready to go, but it looks like I need to be an electrician to get it up! 🙈

 

[jaizei]

Hi all, the viv and all the accessories are finally here/tested (had a few faults with the glass runners and lamps so has taken a while).

Have a couple of questions re lighting;

Are these the coffee cup hooks you meant?
And what am I supposed to do with this LED light? I thought it was an all in one kit ready to go, but it looks like I need to be an electrician to get it up! 🙈

I think appliances in UK used to come standard without plugs on them and that it was taught in schools, so an older person could probably put the plug on for you without having to get an electrician.

Those hooks should work.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I think appliances in UK used to come standard without plugs on them and that it was taught in schools, so an older person could probably put the plug on for you without having to get an electrician.

Those hooks should work.

I guess it wasn't a "UK thing". It's a ceiling/wall light intended to be connected with the room wiring through the terminal block. But you are right, it's not hard to connect a power cable with a plug the same way. However, return and rre-order can be cheaper and faster if there are no "older persons" nearby