What is the physiology behind pyramiding?

[Tom]

Let me play Devil's Advocate here and raise a couple of practical questions.

1. It is certainly not the case that those tortoises in the wild are being subjected to 80%+ RH and constant high temperatures (+26C) around the clock and for 365 days a year. They get some wetter, more humid periods, with some extremely arid, dry periods and some moderate periods. There are no constants in the wild. So... why do they allegedly need it in captivity?

They don't NEED it it. They can survive without it. Mine did for nearly two decades. The fact, however, is that they BENEFIT from it and we are able to grow them in a way that looks more natural than if we attempt to grow them dry, as you advocate. I don't find any benefit to inflicting hardships that might be encountered in the wild to my captive tortoise, and I HAVE tired it and it doesn't work.

2. Why is the level of humidity being advised so high? Even in the 'rainy season' air humidity levels are not normally that high for extended periods. Air movements and the warm sun reduce levels very rapidly in those environments.

I disagree with you about rainy season levels in sulcata territory based on the word of a man who has lived there his whole life and been a student of Chelonians for most of that time. Still, I think discussion of wild conditions are pointless to this discussion. None of us live in the wild range of the sulcata, and as you keep harping on wild wild wild, I will continue harping on captivity captivity captivity. Attempting to simulate wild sulcata conditions in indoor enclosures and in outdoor enclosures in some areas, fails.

To answer your question: I advocate those numbers because lower numbers don't work as well. In my initial experiments with the wet routine, I used open topped enclosures and I was only able to maintain the lower levels of humidity, closer to what you recommend. I had humid hides, damp substrate and sprayed the substrate and enclosure several times a day, but I could only maintain 50-70% ambient humidity even with all that effort. I even attempted to humidify the entire room, but my climate is just too dry. The results from those initial experiments were good, and far better than any tortoise I had ever produce as far as carapace smoothness goes, but I felt there was room for improvement, and I felt it could be done with a lot less effort. When I switched to closed chambers I found it easy to maintain higher humidity levels and still have relatively dry substrate. The tortoises that grew in these closed chamber with the consistently higher and easy to maintain humidity simply grew smoother. Even better than my first attempts with the open tops. So 50-70% with a humid hide was good, but 80% with a humid hide is even better and MUCH easier. Further in my initial experiments I housed groups of tortoises together in the same enclosures. They got the same diets, sunning and soaking routines. They ate off the same plates. The individuals that used the humid hide boxes, which were always 96-99% humidity, grew smoother and faster than their clutch mates in the same enclosure on the same diet. This was yet another clue that higher humidity would work better than lower humidity, and another indicator that faster growth is not necessarily bad. This has been repeated in my closed chamber many times with many animals. The ones who stay in the humid hides more grow faster and smoother than their clutch mates that spend more time out in the lower humidity levels. Live and learn.

3. Note what Richard Fife has said. That spraying the carapaces alone appears to produce a similar result to the use of humid hides. When you consider the properties of keratin, it is logical why this would have an effect, producing an intense temporary 're-hydration' effect. Provided you do not 'bake this off' too quickly with over-exposure to basking lamps, to me this would seem a far safer and more natural approach, as it would approximate the dew point cycle that occurs in even quite hot, arid habitats under certain circumstances (do not confuse the dew point with relative humidity. This is a fundamental technical error that I see constantly on pet keepers forums). Here is a helpful chart that demonstrates the difference.

Also note that Richard Fife does not subject his tortoises to 24/7 constant high humidity. He provides a "humid hide" only and the rest of the area is what he calls "dry" (I do not have current information on what exact level that is). My question is this. If Richard Fife is indeed raising nicely formed tortoises (including leopards and sulcatas) using just the humid hide approach (and I have no reason to disbelieve him - he is a genuinely good, skilled keeper and has shown great dedication to trying to solve this problem), why are enforced 24/7 super-saturated conditions required as advocated by some on this forum? The two situations are entirely different.

Richard is still producing tortoises that pyramid. I know. I bought a bunch from him. Not horribly pyramided mind you, but not as smooth as mine either. Certainly better than what was produced before he and his wife (who he credits for the humid hide "discovery") began using the humid hide technique. I am not attempting to mimic anyone's technique. I have combined useful elements from many people to come up with what I have found to work the best. This is an ongoing process too. I intend to use Frances' IR-A info too, when I figure out how best to incorporate it.

Again it has been an ongoing 6 year process of trial, error, and refinement to get to where we are now. Why do we do it this way? Why do we advocate doing it this way on this forum? BECAUSE IT WORKS! It produces healthy great looking tortoises. Combined with a good diet, suitable UV, hydration and exercise in large enclosures, we are growing HEALTHY SMOOTH tortoises using these techniques. Haven't you noticed? More moderate parameters generate more moderate results.

---

What I really very sad and thoroughly, deeply depressing is just how far some keepers these days are absolutely and totally "cut off" from reality.

Do you not understand that many of us think EXACTLY this about you? You ignore the reality of thousands of pyramided tortoises that were raised totally inappropriately as people attempted to copy what you promote as "natural" conditions, at the same time ignoring the reality of thousands of other tortoises that are healthy and smooth because they were raised in conditions that were in line with what works for that species in a given captive environment.

From MY POV it seems YOU are the one cut off from reality. You keep going on and on about what you have observed in the wild and disregard what happens right in front of everyone's eyes every day.

No one is saying nature is "second best". We are saying that we are unable to duplicate what nature accomplishes in our captive environments, so we make the necessary adjustments to keep our captive animals healthy.

All that other stuff is just negative mumbo jumbo. Save your "arrogance", "foolish" and other doom and gloom comments about the state of the entire world for your shrink. Good lord man. No need to foretell the end of the natural world because some dude in CA is having success raising tortoises at 10% higher humidity than what you think is "right". Talk about cut off from reality...

 

[Testudoresearch]

I just hope the majority of people are bright enough to see exactly what is going on here.

All these point blank denials that it is "impossible" to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques, promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved... despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that. Even photos are dismissed as questionable.... all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... told they "lack experience"....are "promoting" harmful methods.... Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.

It is really is very sad, and very pathetic. Tactics like this have no place in a civilised debate.

I simply do not understand why the moderators of this forum stand by and allow this kind of thing to continue.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Eeeeeeeek!!!

 

[wellington]

The best way to get through to people is too let them know who you are. Give them the experience you've had and how you required your knowledge for what you speak. Then, the real big one for me, show me the proof. I took someone's word for it when I bought my leopard and he paid for it. Luckily, Tom does his home work, shares his experience in picture proof and is always there to help. He backs up his words with his proof. He still has nay sayers, and he always will, same as you do, and always will. The best way to help tortoises, if you feel your way is the right way, or someone else's way is bad or wrong, is too keep showing up proof. Don't expect everyone to agree with you, they won't. Don't expect everyone to follow you, they won't. Most of us, not in the tortoise world long have a clue if you are Andy or who Andy even is. The pics of the basking lights hit home too me as I could feel it and see it for myself with my own leopard and changed things up that day. Show me that the high humidity is destroying the tortoises insides and I would never grow them that way again and I'm sure many would change also. Don't participate in a good discussion, educational thread and then leave because everyone won't pat you on the back. Keep discussing, keep sharing, keep working on the proof is nay sayers are asking for.

 

[Tom]

I just hope the majority of people are bright enough to see exactly what is going on here.

All these point blank denials that it is "impossible" to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques, promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved... despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that. Even photos are dismissed as questionable.... all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... told they "lack experience"....are "promoting" harmful methods.... Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.

It is really is very sad, and very pathetic. Tactics like this have no place in a civilised debate.

I simply do not understand why the moderators of this forum stand by and allow this kind of thing to continue.

Is there no end to your contempt for those you perceive as lower than you?

No one said its "impossible to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques". The methods promoted here are neither bizarre nor extreme. That is YOUR spin on the matter.

"promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved..." This is not the least bit true either. We all agree that pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.

"despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that." NO they have not! When I asked you for details on how the pics you posted were raised you threw a hissy fit and quit talking to me, like a child. EVERY single leopard or sulcata that I have ever seen that was raised dry has pyramided. Your opinion and surly attitude will not change that. When I asked you to describe an exception you abruptly ended the conversation.

"all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... " False again. Ever since YOU personally addressed ME in your second post on this forum, I have been trying to debate the ISSUE with you. You are the one who resorted to to insults and demeaning comments because your almighty will was not bowed to.

"told they "lack experience"... Despite your recent post, you have not demonstrated otherwise. I know guys who have raised thousands of leopards. Does not mean any of them have ever raised a smooth one in a dry enclosure. As far as all of us know, neither have you.

"are "promoting" harmful methods...." The disgrace here is that if people follow YOUR advice and try to raise hatchling leopards and sulcatas dry, HARM will be done. Yet you continually ignore 1000s of examples that prove this. You even POSTED examples of this.


Personally I am glad that the mods allow everyone to voice their opinion here, you included. It prevents anyone from being a bully or tyrant as happens on some other forums. I SHOW my work. You are free to do the same. People here are free to voice there opinions and keep their tortoises how they choose.

 

[Yvonne G]

I just hope the majority of people are bright enough to see exactly what is going on here.

All these point blank denials that it is "impossible" to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques, promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved... despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that. Even photos are dismissed as questionable.... all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... told they "lack experience"....are "promoting" harmful methods.... Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.

It is really is very sad, and very pathetic. Tactics like this have no place in a civilised debate.

I simply do not understand why the moderators of this forum stand by and allow this kind of thing to continue.

So far, no one has broken any rules. The one 'rude' post that was made was removed from the thread before too many people saw it. Don't worry, we're watching the thread.

The above was said with my moderator hard hat in place, and the next sentence is said with my moderator hat taken off:

I know that the wind blows, but I can't see it. I know that airplanes fly, but I have no idea how they manage to do that. I know that keeping sulcata and leopard babies on the moist side, in a humid environment helps them to grow smooth carapaces, but I have no idea how or why that happens. As long as it works, I'm going to do it. I have a very bumpy 5 year old leopard tortoise that I raised from an egg, on dry alfalfa pellets with daily soaks. I also have two nicely smooth SA leopards that I raised in a humid environment with a humid hiding place. It works. So I'm on the humid side of the debate. I don't know why, I just know that it does.

 

[nearpass]

Is there no end to your contempt for those you perceive as lower than you?

No one said its "impossible to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques". The methods promoted here are neither bizarre nor extreme. That is YOUR spin on the matter.

"promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved..." This is not the least bit true either. We all agree that pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.

"despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that." NO they have not! When I asked you for details on how the pics you posted were raised you threw a hissy fit and quit talking to me, like a child. EVERY single leopard or sulcata that I have ever seen that was raised dry has pyramided. Your opinion and surly attitude will not change that. When I asked you to describe an exception you abruptly ended the conversation.

"all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... " False again. Ever since YOU personally addressed ME in your second post on this forum, I have been trying to debate the ISSUE with you. You are the one who resorted to to insults and demeaning comments because your almighty will was not bowed to.

"told they "lack experience"... Despite your recent post, you have not demonstrated otherwise. I know guys who have raised thousands of leopards. Does not mean any of them have ever raised a smooth one in a dry enclosure. As far as all of us know, neither have you.

"are "promoting" harmful methods...." The disgrace here is that if people follow YOUR advice and try to raise hatchling leopards and sulcatas dry, HARM will be done. Yet you continually ignore 1000s of examples that prove this. You even POSTED examples of this.

Personally I am glad that the mods allow everyone to voice their opinion here, you included. It prevents anyone from being a bully or tyrant as happens on some other forums. I SHOW my work. You are free to do the same. People here are free to voice there opinions and keep their tortoises how they choose.

I find it personally offensive that you are as arrogant and denigrating as you accuse others of being, Tom. You convey as much of an attitude of contempt and 'it's my way or you'll fail' as you accuse others of. I also find it astonishing that so few here seem to be able to truly read and comprehend the information that has been presented without picking and choosing what they agree with, and taking personal offense at what they don't agree with. Aren't most of us supposed to be adults, here.

I have read every post in this thread, glossing over the personal attacks, because it is obvious to me that we all know much less than we think we do about tortoise biology, physiology, captive requirements, and I that have much I can learn, and have learned. I am actually pretty humbled in the realization that the whole issue of pyramiding is incredibly complex and may never be entirely understood. I have read all the studies that I could find which were referenced, and am even more humbled at all that I don't really know and am eager for more information. And I've probably kept tortoises for longer than you, Tom, have been alive.

 

[wellington]

I don't think it matters how long you have kept tortoise. To me it's more important how well you have kept them. Have you learned from the mistakes you have made. Do you try to make things better for them. Do you improve their look, life? I have never gotten the feel that Tom is apposed to learning. He says it all the time, he is still learning and willing to learn. There is not one member of this forum, current or past(since I have been a member) that has put so much out there in regards to experience, experiments, failures and non failures as Tom has. No one has ever backed up there words with picture proof either. I have tried myself to get some former members too cough up proof of their words, all I got was pics of someone else's tortoises, no details on the way they were raised. In fact some members purposely and openly withholds info for themselves. Tom, has always answered every question I have asked, answered threads I have asked him to offer help on and Tom, can back up his words with proof. That says it all for me and many others.

 

[FLINTUS]

Right, I am preparing for criticism of this so fire away once I've written this:
Andy, I am kind of on your side with the humidity thing. Dry raised tortoises can be smooth and I too would be worried about the affects of such a consistent, unnatural environment. However, firstly, Tom has got results with his method, so what do you think is this missing piece? What I personally disapprove of, is how both of you are presenting your evidence-Tom's brazen claim 'the end of pyramiding' and your reluctance to prove to us your case when both of you agree we DO NOT know enough about MBD in tortoises at present. New light still being shed.
Secondly, contradicting your stance on moderating on this forum- while I do not deny your forum is a great resource, there are many people that have claimed to be 'bullied' off your forum for simply disagreeing and often members quickly shout before thinking and only later realize they may have misunderstood the original post. I have experienced the latter with your forum when we were talking about hybridization and mixing of species-two things I am opposed to- and I considered the 'other side' of the argument. For instance for the former point, one of the things that is constantly brought up is sand. Many have claimed it to cause impaction. But you don't seem to accept that. Another thing is the good old 'vivarium' debate. You can actually establish a good temperature gradient and moderate humidity, vivariums vary a lot and while your experiments were perfectly fine, you did not account for the fact that most of the tortoise owners using vivariums on this forum, Shelled Warriors, RFUK, The Tortoise Board etc. will be using custom made accommodation due to recognizing that tortoises need space. Tom has the same 'unacceptance' with open topped enclosures in his claim you cannot get high humidity with them. I managed to get 80%+ CONSTANT humidity with no mister in two plastic enclosures for my red foots of sizes 4 by 2ft and 6 by 2ft.
Sorry to have a slight moan, but this is what I find really annoying, both of you have said before that we still know very little about these creatures ultimately-despite excellent field studies by people such as Andy- yet both of you seem to be very much 'in denial' of certain points. Perhaps, maybe working together you could combine the best of both methods, and also work out the faults?

---

I find it personally offensive that you are as arrogant and denigrating as you accuse others of being, Tom. You convey as much of an attitude of contempt and 'it's my way or you'll fail' as you accuse others of. I also find it astonishing that so few here seem to be able to truly read and comprehend the information that has been presented without picking and choosing what they agree with, and taking personal offense at what they don't agree with. Aren't most of us supposed to be adults, here.

I have read every post in this thread, glossing over the personal attacks, because it is obvious to me that we all know much less than we think we do about tortoise biology, physiology, captive requirements, and I that have much I can learn, and have learned. I am actually pretty humbled in the realization that the whole issue of pyramiding is incredibly complex and may never be entirely understood. I have read all the studies that I could find which were referenced, and am even more humbled at all that I don't really know and am eager for more information. And I've probably kept tortoises for longer than you, Tom, have been alive.

That was basically what I was trying to say in my post.

 

[wellington]

Proof, please post picture proof of these SMOOTH DRY raised tortoises. Also, don't forget to give the perimeters of how dry you are considering dry! 70% is not dry. Half day in dry and half day in 70% is not dry. Please, please give picture proof with all the details of how this smooth dry tortoises was achieved.

---

Correction, leopards and sulcatas, smooth, dry leopards and sulcatas.

I will post a pic of a leopard started out dry from the breeder and then unfortunately by me for 5 months. I live in Chicago, not the highest humidity, not the lowest either. Got him in May, no heat on and no air conditioning running. Water available, with some wet area of moss that the breeder told me to get rid of. This is my home. His basking was right on, the rest of his enclosure was 70-75. I don't know if there was any readable humidity, probably very little to non. Here is a dry started for 7 months leopard

Not very smooth looking too me. The smoother growth you can see, is from the high humidity, just too little too late for us.

 

[Testudoresearch]

For instance for the former point, one of the things that is constantly brought up is sand. Many have claimed it to cause impaction. But you don't seem to accept that. Another thing is the good old 'vivarium' debate. You can actually establish a good temperature gradient and moderate humidity, vivariums vary a lot and while your experiments were perfectly fine, you did not account for the fact that most of the tortoise owners using vivariums on this forum, Shelled Warriors, RFUK, The Tortoise Board etc. will be using custom made accommodation due to recognizing that tortoises need space.

With respect to sand and impaction.I have personally used it for over 20 years, many, many hundreds of tortoises - not one problem. It is also the case that many tortoises live on almost pure sand (though I do not normally recommend that in captivity). Testudo kleinmanni, some T. graeca, some T. horsfieldii, Chersina angulata, Psammobates and Tunisian tortoises among others . I have heard of confirmed cases with some commercial 'reptile' sands - these can clump when wet. However, the normal, regular sands I have used (and many other keepers have used) have not once resulted in any problem at all. I cannot prove a negative... I do believe that if a high fiber diet is employed risk is minimal. The problem is all substrates can have problems of one kind or another... nothing is 100% guaranteed in every circumstance. I would never say it is risk-free, but I do believe the risk is as low or lower than other suitable alternatives.

With enclosed vivaria - I can only speak of those I have tested. Not those I have no data on. If anyone has a design they wish to submit for testing, I will test it. Simple as that.

 

[nearpass]

No one has ever backed up there words with picture proof either.

Tom, has always answered every question I have asked, answered threads I have asked him to offer help on and Tom, can back up his words with proof. That says it all for me and many others.

Why is it necessary to 'take sides' to have a discussion?

There are pictures of smooth, dry raised tortoises posted by Testudoresearch on the pages below.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-page-2.html

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-page-3.html

 

[Testudoresearch]

Proof, please post picture proof of these SMOOTH DRY raised tortoises. Also, don't forget to give the perimeters of how dry you are considering dry! 70% is not dry. Half day in dry and half day in 70% is not dry. Please, please give picture proof with all the details of how this smooth dry tortoises was achieved.

---

Correction, leopards and sulcatas, smooth, dry leopards and sulcatas.

---

I already did. It was disbelieved.

They were raised in a polytunnel (18ft X 40 feet) with ambient humidity ranging from 40% to 60%. It would mostly be in the 50-55% range. No overhead heat lamps were used. Background heat was provided by multiple water-filled radiators powered by an oil-fired central heating system. Solar gain was excellent from spring to early fall. Tortoises achieved body temperatures of up to 30C quite easily even on overcast days. In hot weather, they hid under shade and some buried into scrapes. In good weather, they were given access to an outdoor area this contained mixed grazes and grasses. Some natural UVB passed through the plastic but UVB tubes were added at a low level to assist in that respect. In winter, heat continued to be provided, but tortoise activity and feeding was much reduced.. additional insulation was added to the tunnel.... light levels were lower and temperatures in the area reduced to around 18-20C, sometimes even a bit lower at night. Diet was high fiber, high calcium, with a (DM) protein level of circa 8%. A calcium-D3 product called "Nutrobal" (similar to Repcal+D3) was also provided daily. Concrete 'trays' permitted drinking and bathing from fresh water also provided daily.

Really. That's it. That's all. Photos of animals posted previously.

Disbelieve if you will. I can't change that. Believe or disbelieve. Your choice. Not really my problem.

 

[lilacdragon]

Thank you for ... NOT disregarding various people's lifetimes of firsthand experience because of lack of "scientific" citation.

Tom, I had a friend (sadly we lost touch about 5 years ago and I never got a forwarding address) who was an absolute genius with frog husbandry. He was a pioneer with the use of both vitamin D3 and UVB with a whole range of reptiles - he was a devoted and skilled zookeeper - but with frogs he was amazing. He got dozens of species to breed, that no-one else could. But he never published a single article, and he was doubted openly - and sometimes in a very hostile manner - wherever he went. This was totally unfair because he, too had a lifetime of firsthand experience. 20 years of astonishing results. But no "scientific citation".
Among others, I pleaded with him to spend time tabulating his results and recording his methods. But he got totally disillusioned with his work and once he told me, in effect, that he couldn't go on because he would send baby frogs he had raised to new owners and "three months later they would write and ask for more, because they had died".
He gave up his work and disappeared entirely from the zoo world. What a loss!

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples right here on this forum...

I have several threads listing weights, growth, various experiments, and all the details all over the forum. Many of the people who have gotten tortoises from me are doing the same thing with theirs. All the "evidence" a person could want is out there.

Unfortunately it is very difficult, if not impossible, to create acceptable scientific evidence from other people's forum posts. I had a terrible time collecting data from forum-posters when there was a disaster with certain UVB lamps sold in 2006-7 causing photo-kerato-conjunctivitis. Not only did I need to get permission to use the posts and photos, I had to have real names and locations, plus detailed case histories - and when gathering these, although almost everyone was super keen to help, a large number of cases could not be included because the owners remembered only the vaguest of details about the lamp, the animal's history and the treatments given. But it can be done....

I've toyed with the idea of a book, but I have no time. I have a full time career and an even fuller time family, not to mention a few dozen tortoises to take care of. I would love to retire and spend more time pursuing and spreading tortoise knowledge, but for now, this is it for me.

I know the feeling only too well. I am sometimes desperate to update my own website, heaven knows I have gigabytes of data for it, but time always eludes me. I have my work cut out, this month... in fact I will have to leave this thread soon because I simply must do some written work folks are waiting on me for...
But please keep ALL your data and please consider writing that book. Or paper... these are far shorter, and oddly enough have more impact nowadays...

Tom, if you could somehow create a document that is laid out in the form of a scientific paper, with some "methods" and "growth charts" etc (rather than the excellent but chatty article in a magazine, by Jason Oneppo, that Andy gave the link to) I am certain that several serious herp publications would consider publishing it. I'm thinking of the British Herpetological Society Bulletin; The Bulletin of the Chicago Herpetological Society; even the prestigious SSAR's Herpetological Review, the AZA's Zoo Biology or ARAV's Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery might be interested if it was concise and included a neat description of theories on pyramiding to date, as well as your methods and results....

What I'm trying to say is - without a published, peer-reviewed paper it's very hard to be believed (crazy as this is). But once you have a solid reference to show people, more often than not your theory will be taken quite seriously by many people. Some will take it uncritically on face value (a pity; especially if the theory is flawed, of course) whereas others will give it a very critical appraisal which is, after all, the foundation of progress in science..

I have several threads listing weights, growth, various experiments, and all the details all over the forum. Many of the people who have gotten tortoises from me are doing the same thing with theirs. All the "evidence" a person could want is out there.

Hey... if it needs gathering up into one place, couldn't some of the other regular posters, or the moderators, get together - create a Working Party - and assemble the material as a sort of fantastic forum project? It would be brilliant fun for those compiling it; there's nothing like the buzz of working with like-minded folks on something worthwhile.... Then all you'd have to do, would be to edit it...

From what I have seen, there is not any "precision" at all to the natural habitats of our tortoises. The climate, seasons and annual variations are all over the board. There are drought years, rainy years, hot years, cold years, predator die offs, predator flourishes, parasite outbreaks, fruit windfalls, irregular carrion discoveries, etc. It is my view that our tortoises are adapted to handle all of the above, and much more. Meaning (to me) that they are able to SURVIVE through a lot of variables.

Yes, indeed. I'm sure that amazing capacity for survival is why they can be kept as pets at all.

It is my goal, to at least attempt to simulate the "good" days that they would experience in the wild, and forego the "bad" days, when possible. It should be noted that my older tortoises all live outside and are subject to whatever mother nature throws at us. I try to compensate for this by providing species appropriate housing, like heated boxes for the leopards and sulcatas, or proper shelters for the temperate species to escape temperature extremes and rain. My tortoises still get rained on in winter and experience scorching summer heat, but through enclosure design I do my best to keep them in their comfort range. For example when our annual daily highs start consistently hitting 32C+ (usually June through October), I open up the burrow and start letting the sulcatas go underground to escape the summer heat. The leopards get lots of "summer rain" through my sprinkler heads.

I would love to see your torts! They must be some of the luckiest alive...

Still on the first paragraph, there is much debate about D3,
I saw a study done in the early 90's on green iguanas that proved that they cannot use dietary D3.

Yes, that was probably either the one by Bernard, done for her PhD thesis - (in 1991 I think), or one of a series by Bernard, Allen, Oftedal and several other colleagues around 1995-8. I can dig out the papers if you're interested... These showed, eventually, that they can in some circumstances use dietary D3 to a very limited extent... But it is certainly not natural for them, and very difficult to assess a suitable dose... Some day geckos, however, do appear completely unable to use dietary D3... (a second part of another sad study also by Allen et al).

I have to date seen NO study that proves tortoises CAN use dietary D3.

Neither have I! Has anyone ever done the work needed? It is only a few years ago that anyone proved, using 25(OH)D3 sampling, that chelonians (red-eared sliders) could actually make vitamin D3 from UVB!!

Some history: ..................

Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It's been a long but rewarding journey by the sound of it...
You kept Ctenosaurs? A rescued Ctenosaura palearis is one of my scaly companions here. He was a terrified little skinny misery when I took him on, maybe 6 months old but already through 2 homes and a rescuer. He's grown into the most handsome and intelligent creature, so keen to learn, so curious... we love him very much. He's now 6yrs old.

In my lengthy explanation above, it should be clear that it is not an indoor/outdoor issue. It is a too dry/wet enough issue. They pyramid just the same outdoors IF it is too dry like it is here in a climate like mine. Scooter and Bert had CHEs indoors for night heat when they were little, but they didn't have traditional basking lamps, if I recall correctly, since they were outside almost every day.

This is very interesting... Seriously, this does need writing up formally!

There. I think I hit everything. Please let me know what you think.

I think this has been a most fascinating discussion.

I think you, Richard Fife, Terry K and Carl May, and no doubt others, have found something very interesting that warrants investigation and DEFINITELY warrants a scientific write-up and preferably, a controlled large-scale trial.

I think that Andy's descriptions of the physiological processes involved in pyramiding are unrivalled, answer the question posed by the OP, and not only explain what we have all seen, but do so in a way we can all understand. They also provide a very good working hypothesis as to why the "humid method" works...

I think there may be additional things that contribute to pyramiding and abnormal growth, that we will continue to discover. Like the "abnormal" radiation from any type of artificial heat source.
But I think Andy is right to conclude that humidity is a very major factor affecting mainly the keratin. The multiplication of keratin cells and their transformation into keratin sheets is also, of course, affected by nutritional status, hormonal controls, seasonal changes, vitamin D levels, etc just as is the production of, for example, hair or fur in mammals.
I think he is also correct that dietary protein, fibre, growth rates, vitamin D, calcium and phosphorus status, etc. are more important factors affecting bone formation beneath the keratin; and if this is abnormal then pyramiding will be even easier to obtain owing to soft, defective bone and the effects of bone re-modelling that is well described by Gerlach.
There are countless other important factors of course....

I think it is very sad that stores sell Starter Kit "prison cells" for tortoises, and I repeat, "Shouldn't we be decrying this in the strongest possible terms, and instead be developing methods of housing tortoises in far better conditions altogether?"
Tom's descriptions of his baby sulcata tortoise rearing doesn't sound like he is rearing them in "prison cells", but rather, in proper enclosures with the addition of damp hides...admittedly, I have not seen any pictures of his enclosures - but I haven't looked.
I have, however, seen some dreadful dry prison cells in pet stores though, and Andy has a really worthwhile analysis of the problems associated with these, on his website, including scathing comments on the drying effects of the small, hot lamps and the lack of humidity:
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivreport.html

Finally, I think despite all the strong undercurrents of hostility, the people who've posted on this thread are actually working towards a similar aim - improved husbandry. I think what is lacking is a scientific paper with lots of tables and charts and hard data. Actually, no... two. One from Andy on field data and one from Tom on the "humid method" for improving the lives of baby tortoises currently so often reared in despicable "dry prison cells" such as Andy has reviewed.
Maybe - and here is a great challenge - Flintus has just had the best idea of all:

Perhaps, maybe working together you could combine the best of both methods, and also work out the faults?

I bet you could!

I'm sorry, I have to go now, for a while. Thank you for allowing my posts and for your warm welcome.
Frances

 

[Testudoresearch]

I also have to go as I do have other pressing things to work on now that the holidays are over.

Those of you who have contributed thoughtful and thought-provoking input - many thanks.

Further updates on the lamp research will appear on the main Tortoise Trust website over the next couple of months. Look out also for a forthcoming popular magazine article and two peer-reviewed journal articles which should be out sometime this year that address different aspects of what we have discussed here.

 

[Dizisdalife]

I just hope the majority of people are bright enough to see exactly what is going on here.

All these point blank denials that it is "impossible" to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques, promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved... despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that. Even photos are dismissed as questionable.... all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... told they "lack experience"....are "promoting" harmful methods.... Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.

It is really is very sad, and very pathetic. Tactics like this have no place in a civilised debate.

I simply do not understand why the moderators of this forum stand by and allow this kind of thing to continue.

So far, no one has broken any rules. The one 'rude' post that was made was removed from the thread before too many people saw it. Don't worry, we're watching the thread.

The above was said with my moderator hard hat in place, and the next sentence is said with my moderator hat taken off:

I know that the wind blows, but I can't see it. I know that airplanes fly, but I have no idea how they manage to do that. I know that keeping sulcata and leopard babies on the moist side, in a humid environment helps them to grow smooth carapaces, but I have no idea how or why that happens. As long as it works, I'm going to do it. I have a very bumpy 5 year old leopard tortoise that I raised from an egg, on dry alfalfa pellets with daily soaks. I also have two nicely smooth SA leopards that I raised in a humid environment with a humid hiding place. It works. So I'm on the humid side of the debate. I don't know why, I just know that it does.

Thanks Yvonne. If there was a "like" button I would have pressed it (I am not suggesting that we add one either). There are a lot of things that I don't know, although I do know what makes an airplane fly, and I know that elevated humidity minimizes pyramiding in sulcata. I know this because I tried it and got results.

For me, the keeping of a tortoise is a low stress proposition. I love the serenity it brings when I see them basking in the warm sun, seemingly smiling, not a care in the world. This morning I joined Chuck (my almost 4 year old sulcata) for a bit of basking time. The air temperature was just above 60F, but the sun was bright and warmed us both. I ate a tangerine from my tree, still cool from the evening chill, while Chuck had an optunia pad fresh from the plant. I wonder if he could see me smiling.

 

[wellington]

No one has ever backed up there words with picture proof either.

Tom, has always answered every question I have asked, answered threads I have asked him to offer help on and Tom, can back up his words with proof. That says it all for me and many others.

Why is it necessary to 'take sides' to have a discussion?

There are pictures of smooth, dry raised tortoises posted by Testudoresearch on the pages below.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-page-2.html

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-page-3.html

AGAIN, show me a dry raised leopard or sulcata. Toms way is being said to be endangering the insides of our tortoises, or at the very least, they don't need high humidity. Toms way is leopards and sulcatas. Your not showing me anything that I didn't already see. If your going to attack Toms way, show up some proof of a leopard or sulcata that is smooth and raised dry. I did. Oops, that's right, he's not smooth. Had a dream that hot and dry would grow a smooth leopard. I would love for that to be a fact. I'm sure most of us would love to not have to add the humidity that for some of use takes more time and money then we would like. I would love for the way I started raising my leopard to have been the right way, the appropriate way. It wasn't, he's not smooth and does not look like a leopard tortoises is suppose to look. Please, for leopards and sulcatas, prove Tom wrong, we would all love an easier way, a dry way. Don't tell me he's wrong, prove it and show and tell the details as he has. Tell me and the average tortoise keeper on this forum who you are and why we should believe you. Heck, I could tell you how Tom met his wife and where she used to work and now works. I and most of us on this forum have no clue who you are or if your name is really Andy, but you want us to believe we are raising our Sullies and leopards in a inappropriate way, yet, you keep talking and showing pics of the Testudo species.

 

[tortadise]

Post 31/33 is the start of Pardalis Andy has raised.

 

[FLINTUS]

The D3 stuff interests me. I know a lot of keepers have kept species successfully without UV inside for many years-even if they don't get much outside access. The species which are covered here include elegans, carbonaria, kinixys species and more recently a few people are growing smooth graeca and hermanni mainly inside without UV lights. I remember a post by Terry on here, something like 'they(k.erosa) get all their D3 requirements through their food.' In this case he was talking about mushrooms. I am using low level UV lighting with my k.erosa now, and they do seem to like it. However, species such as k.erosa and c.denticulata live in deep forest, very few rays of light aren't filtered in the canopy and undergrowth. The only times they might see decent sunlight levels will be at rivers. IF D3 cannot be taken from dietary means for these species, maybe they have evolved to capture much more of the UV rays from the sun than savannah/desert/steppe tortoises do as when they do come out into the sunlight they absorb the rays quickly. A slightly absurd idea, based on no evidence whatsoever, but just a thought.

---

Kelly who goes by the name of stells on the shelled warriors forum claims to have raised them dry. Baoh on the tortoise board has some of the nicest leopards around using moderate humidity outside. We are not denying humidity is not needed, but a simple humid hide or a place to dig burrows in should be adequate. I really do wish I took pics of those leopards kept on sand in Mauritius, with a humid hide of around 80%.

 

[wellington]

Post 31/33 is the start of Pardalis Andy has raised.

Thanks Kelly, but again, where are the details? How humid. Where was he located. Living in Florida (I know he doesn't) I could most likely raise a smooth leopard with no artificial (whatever his meaning of this is) humidity either. Same goes for living in England, Ireland, rain, rain and more rain with plenty of humidity under the shrubs. If it can be done. Give the details of how it was done. Don't leave out things like some members or former members do. We all live in different areas. In order for us to duplicate your dry? success, we have to know exactly how you did it, the temps use, humidity levels used, diet, etc so we can apply the same to the areas we all live.