No sugar for tortoises?

[ryan57]

Friends, please let this sink in and do some research. What do you think is the fuel for gut fermentation in a tortoise? Right. Sugar. How many 175-200lb sulcatas eat 8lbs of hay daily? Every single one eats more than that. That's 562.5 grams of *&^%ing sugar for 3750g or 8.26lbs. Who started this absolute unscientific nonsense about tortoises not consuming sugar?

Maybe you should start a thread about this in the debateable section stating your views? I would like to chime in but don't want to go completely off topic here.
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I can definitely see how older, outdated information about tortoise keeping has circulated for years. In the interest of not parroting the same disinformation about sugar and sugary foods I would like to open a discussion beginning with the fact that grass is a sugary food. Where does the fuel for fermentation of alcohol come from in the brewing process? Right.

I have heard on this forum that tortoises can't process sugar. Well, due to the sugar content in the majority of their diet, they absolutely must be able to do something with the sugar because that's what they eat and live a century.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I would like to add 2 very popular views I have seen on the forum:

1. Feeding foods high in sugar will cause a bacterial bloom in non-fruit eating species. Their gut flora isn't used to handling sugars,
2. Tortoises get addicted to foods high in sugar and start refusing other foods, looking for that sugar high instead. This has been said both about fruits, but also the older formula of Mazuri.

I can't wait to dive into some more research on this topic. Maybe @Mad_Moose can chime in on the hay side of things too.

 

[ryan57]

In response to number one - based on what Sulcatas eat as their primary food, number one can’t be correct.

In response to number two - this is only said by those that have not seen a hungry, large grass eating species. No food or anything with bird poop on it is refused.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

What would you say about non-fruit eating species that also don't eat hay? I have understood that the diet of some testudo species in the wild is pretty bare and low in sugar, containing things like plantain.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

And here is the explanation I have been believing in terms of hay and sugar (this one is from the tortoise table but it is pretty common elsewhere too). I underlined the important part.:

"Glucose/Sugars
Glucose is a product of plant photosynthesis and an excess is stored as glycogen to be used by the plant to give energy. Sugar that is ingested as fruit: apples, plums, berries, tomatoes (yes, tomatoes are fruit), ferments faster than that from a natural diet, causing high levels of endotoxins, compromising the normal gut flora which in turn may lead to liver abscesses and possibly prove fatal. Some tropical species of tortoise, such as Red-foots, have adapted to have fruit as part of their diet, but fruit should be avoided for all Mediterranean and grazing species such as Sulcata and Leopard tortoises."

Harmful Properties

Harmful Properties

thetortoisetable.org.uk

 

[ryan57]

This is the Sahal where Sulcata tortoises come from.
Below is my tortoise enclosure in Dillsburg PA.


Just happened to be doing some dirt work. This is Stump's backyard enclosure with 4 gauge hog fence buried beneath the surface. His burrow is under the bush in the distance.



The little one has worn a path in the grass and eats this all day long in addition to greens, Mazuri, etc. inside. This grass is very rich and very similar to the grass that I see where they come from.

https://animalia-life.club/qa/pictures/sahara-desert-plant-life

Sure looks like melons growing in the desert.

Indigenous fruit trees...

In this landscape there are dozens of different fruit trees available to them. This palm produces edible fruit along with dates(figs) plum, etc.

 

[ryan57]

The gut bacteria is the main benefit of feeding Mazuri daily. You are assured that there is new beneficial bacteria being added to their digestive tract daily. Sure looks like grass that has gone to seed in the photo above which is very high in sugar content. That's the stage where grass/grains are used to make alcohol.

 

[ryan57]

What would you say about non-fruit eating species that also don't eat hay? I have understood that the diet of some testudo species in the wild is pretty bare and low in sugar, containing things like plantain.

Yes. Plantains are low sugar even when ripe. "testudo species in the wild is pretty bare" - Not from what I see...
Grass very similar to my yard.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Yes. Plantains are low sugar even when ripe. "testudo species in the wild is pretty bare" - Not from what I see...
Grass very similar to my yard.

I have read that Russian tortoises for example aren't really hay eaters and actually avoid grass in the wild. Meanwhile plantain makes a large quantity of their diet. See this study for example:

" Extreme climatic conditions of Central Asia limit steppe tortoise's activity to only three months per year. They remain inactive most of their “active season” (90%), and spend very little time foraging (<15 min per day). This suggests that steppe tortoises can satisfy their energy requirements with modest feeding efforts. Interestingly, steppe tortoises avoid feeding on grass species and feed mostly on plant species that are usually highly toxic to mammals. This result suggests that steppe tortoises and ungulates do not compete for food."

https://nsojournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-0587.2003.03365.x

 

[ryan57]

I have read that Russian tortoises for example aren't really hay eaters and actually avoid grass in the wild. Meanwhile plantain makes a large quantity of their diet. See this study for example:

" Extreme climatic conditions of Central Asia limit steppe tortoise's activity to only three months per year. They remain inactive most of their “active season” (90%), and spend very little time foraging (<15 min per day). This suggests that steppe tortoises can satisfy their energy requirements with modest feeding efforts. Interestingly, steppe tortoises avoid feeding on grass species and feed mostly on plant species that are usually highly toxic to mammals. This result suggests that steppe tortoises and ungulates do not compete for food."

https://nsojournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-0587.2003.03365.x

I would agree with all presented here. Energy conservation is king where food is scarce and time to find food is limited because of temperature.

Where I have differing data pertains mainly to the large grass eating species and what is widely distributed on this forum about sugar and low sugar fruit such as unripened fig, etc.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I understand your point. I was just wondering whether it stands in the case of non-fruit eating species, like Russians that aren't really hay eating either. It seems the wild diet of Russian tortoises doesn't contain much sugar in any form, hay or fruit.

 

[ryan57]

I understand your point. I was just wondering whether it stands in the case of non-fruit eating species, like Russians that aren't really hay eating either. It seems the wild diet of Russian tortoises doesn't contain much sugar in any form, hay or fruit.

I learned that plantains are more akin to potato than banana as far as starch. Makes sense because people make plantain chips the same way as potato chips.

 

[zovick]

Maybe you should start a thread about this in the debateable section stating your views? I would like to chime in but don't want to go completely off topic here.
----------------------------
I can definitely see how older, outdated information about tortoise keeping has circulated for years. In the interest of not parroting the same disinformation about sugar and sugary foods I would like to open a discussion beginning with the fact that grass is a sugary food. Where does the fuel for fermentation of alcohol come from in the brewing process? Right.

I have heard on this forum that tortoises can't process sugar. Well, due to the sugar content in the majority of their diet, they absolutely must be able to do something with the sugar because that's what they eat and live a century.

My understanding is that grass can contain up to 15% sugar. Are in agreement with that, or do you think it contains more than that? From your post, I can't tell what amount/percentage you are thinking.

Just curious.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

My understanding is that grass can contain up to 15% sugar. Are in agreement with that, or do you think it contains more than that? From your post, I can't tell what amount/percentage you are thinking.

Just curious.

He posted the percentages here: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/figs.218228/