No sugar for tortoises?

[ryan57]

Friends, please let this sink in and do some research. What do you think is the fuel for gut fermentation in a tortoise? Right. Sugar. How many 175-200lb sulcatas eat 8lbs of hay daily? Every single one eats more than that. That's 562.5 grams of *&^%ing sugar for 3750g or 8.26lbs. Who started this absolute unscientific nonsense about tortoises not consuming sugar?

Maybe you should start a thread about this in the debateable section stating your views? I would like to chime in but don't want to go completely off topic here.
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I can definitely see how older, outdated information about tortoise keeping has circulated for years. In the interest of not parroting the same disinformation about sugar and sugary foods I would like to open a discussion beginning with the fact that grass is a sugary food. Where does the fuel for fermentation of alcohol come from in the brewing process? Right.

I have heard on this forum that tortoises can't process sugar. Well, due to the sugar content in the majority of their diet, they absolutely must be able to do something with the sugar because that's what they eat and live a century.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I would like to add 2 very popular views I have seen on the forum:

1. Feeding foods high in sugar will cause a bacterial bloom in non-fruit eating species. Their gut flora isn't used to handling sugars,
2. Tortoises get addicted to foods high in sugar and start refusing other foods, looking for that sugar high instead. This has been said both about fruits, but also the older formula of Mazuri.

I can't wait to dive into some more research on this topic. Maybe @Mad_Moose can chime in on the hay side of things too.

 

[ryan57]

In response to number one - based on what Sulcatas eat as their primary food, number one can’t be correct.

In response to number two - this is only said by those that have not seen a hungry, large grass eating species. No food or anything with bird poop on it is refused.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

What would you say about non-fruit eating species that also don't eat hay? I have understood that the diet of some testudo species in the wild is pretty bare and low in sugar, containing things like plantain.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

And here is the explanation I have been believing in terms of hay and sugar (this one is from the tortoise table but it is pretty common elsewhere too). I underlined the important part.:

"Glucose/Sugars
Glucose is a product of plant photosynthesis and an excess is stored as glycogen to be used by the plant to give energy. Sugar that is ingested as fruit: apples, plums, berries, tomatoes (yes, tomatoes are fruit), ferments faster than that from a natural diet, causing high levels of endotoxins, compromising the normal gut flora which in turn may lead to liver abscesses and possibly prove fatal. Some tropical species of tortoise, such as Red-foots, have adapted to have fruit as part of their diet, but fruit should be avoided for all Mediterranean and grazing species such as Sulcata and Leopard tortoises."

Harmful Properties

Harmful Properties

thetortoisetable.org.uk

 

[ryan57]

This is the Sahal where Sulcata tortoises come from.
Below is my tortoise enclosure in Dillsburg PA.


Just happened to be doing some dirt work. This is Stump's backyard enclosure with 4 gauge hog fence buried beneath the surface. His burrow is under the bush in the distance.



The little one has worn a path in the grass and eats this all day long in addition to greens, Mazuri, etc. inside. This grass is very rich and very similar to the grass that I see where they come from.

https://animalia-life.club/qa/pictures/sahara-desert-plant-life

Sure looks like melons growing in the desert.

Indigenous fruit trees...

In this landscape there are dozens of different fruit trees available to them. This palm produces edible fruit along with dates(figs) plum, etc.

 

[ryan57]

The gut bacteria is the main benefit of feeding Mazuri daily. You are assured that there is new beneficial bacteria being added to their digestive tract daily. Sure looks like grass that has gone to seed in the photo above which is very high in sugar content. That's the stage where grass/grains are used to make alcohol.

 

[ryan57]

What would you say about non-fruit eating species that also don't eat hay? I have understood that the diet of some testudo species in the wild is pretty bare and low in sugar, containing things like plantain.

Yes. Plantains are low sugar even when ripe. "testudo species in the wild is pretty bare" - Not from what I see...
Grass very similar to my yard.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Yes. Plantains are low sugar even when ripe. "testudo species in the wild is pretty bare" - Not from what I see...
Grass very similar to my yard.

I have read that Russian tortoises for example aren't really hay eaters and actually avoid grass in the wild. Meanwhile plantain makes a large quantity of their diet. See this study for example:

" Extreme climatic conditions of Central Asia limit steppe tortoise's activity to only three months per year. They remain inactive most of their “active season” (90%), and spend very little time foraging (<15 min per day). This suggests that steppe tortoises can satisfy their energy requirements with modest feeding efforts. Interestingly, steppe tortoises avoid feeding on grass species and feed mostly on plant species that are usually highly toxic to mammals. This result suggests that steppe tortoises and ungulates do not compete for food."

https://nsojournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-0587.2003.03365.x

 

[ryan57]

I have read that Russian tortoises for example aren't really hay eaters and actually avoid grass in the wild. Meanwhile plantain makes a large quantity of their diet. See this study for example:

" Extreme climatic conditions of Central Asia limit steppe tortoise's activity to only three months per year. They remain inactive most of their “active season” (90%), and spend very little time foraging (<15 min per day). This suggests that steppe tortoises can satisfy their energy requirements with modest feeding efforts. Interestingly, steppe tortoises avoid feeding on grass species and feed mostly on plant species that are usually highly toxic to mammals. This result suggests that steppe tortoises and ungulates do not compete for food."

https://nsojournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-0587.2003.03365.x

I would agree with all presented here. Energy conservation is king where food is scarce and time to find food is limited because of temperature.

Where I have differing data pertains mainly to the large grass eating species and what is widely distributed on this forum about sugar and low sugar fruit such as unripened fig, etc.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I understand your point. I was just wondering whether it stands in the case of non-fruit eating species, like Russians that aren't really hay eating either. It seems the wild diet of Russian tortoises doesn't contain much sugar in any form, hay or fruit.

 

[ryan57]

I understand your point. I was just wondering whether it stands in the case of non-fruit eating species, like Russians that aren't really hay eating either. It seems the wild diet of Russian tortoises doesn't contain much sugar in any form, hay or fruit.

I learned that plantains are more akin to potato than banana as far as starch. Makes sense because people make plantain chips the same way as potato chips.

 

[zovick]

Maybe you should start a thread about this in the debateable section stating your views? I would like to chime in but don't want to go completely off topic here.
----------------------------
I can definitely see how older, outdated information about tortoise keeping has circulated for years. In the interest of not parroting the same disinformation about sugar and sugary foods I would like to open a discussion beginning with the fact that grass is a sugary food. Where does the fuel for fermentation of alcohol come from in the brewing process? Right.

I have heard on this forum that tortoises can't process sugar. Well, due to the sugar content in the majority of their diet, they absolutely must be able to do something with the sugar because that's what they eat and live a century.

My understanding is that grass can contain up to 15% sugar. Are in agreement with that, or do you think it contains more than that? From your post, I can't tell what amount/percentage you are thinking.

Just curious.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

My understanding is that grass can contain up to 15% sugar. Are in agreement with that, or do you think it contains more than that? From your post, I can't tell what amount/percentage you are thinking.

Just curious.

He posted the percentages here: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/figs.218228/

 

[ryan57]

He posted the percentages here: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/figs.218228/

I was astonished to discover that for every 8.62lbs of hay there is 1.24lbs of sugar so yes. You are right on at about 15%.

When grass is being consumed and a sugary food is mixed in (not as a regular part of the diet) how much could it sway the percentage? I would argue not much.

"Can grass eaters eat fruit occasionally?" was the original question.

 

[dd33]

I learned that plantains are more akin to potato than banana as far as starch. Makes sense because people make plantain chips the same way as potato chips.

He may be referring to the plantain plant which is a weed rather than the plantain fruit like a banana.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Maybe you should start a thread about this in the debateable section stating your views? I would like to chime in but don't want to go completely off topic here.
----------------------------
I can definitely see how older, outdated information about tortoise keeping has circulated for years. In the interest of not parroting the same disinformation about sugar and sugary foods I would like to open a discussion beginning with the fact that grass is a sugary food. Where does the fuel for fermentation of alcohol come from in the brewing process? Right.

I have heard on this forum that tortoises can't process sugar. Well, due to the sugar content in the majority of their diet, they absolutely must be able to do something with the sugar because that's what they eat and live a century.

Easily digestible sugars from fruit, like glucose, fructose, and starch, are predominantly digested in the small intestine by endogenous enzymes and absorbed into the bloodstream. The Microbes in the large intestine are going to be breaking down cellulose and other fibers whose bonds cannot be broken by endogenous enzymes as well as any sugars that make it that far, releasing volatile fatty acids as a product to be absorbed into the blood.

However, when fed too many sugars in too short a period, which can be consumed easily by the microbes without being broken down, microbes like streptococcus bovis grow and release lactic acid too quickly. This lowers the pH of the large intestine to levels unsuitable for microbial life. Microbes that would usually convert the lactic acid to glucose, like megasphaera elsdenii, are killed by the change in condition. This causes the pH to lower even faster with nothing to slow it, rapidly killing off other microbes.

In ruminants, this is referred to as ruminal acidosis and can become fatal. In non ruminants, like horses, it is referred to as acidosis laminitis, or hindgut acidosis. It is not usually fatal in this case, but it produces colic, fever, diarrhea, and potentially laminitis.

The microbes in the large intestine do not need sugar, such as from fruit, to live, and instead are able to break down fibers from hay and grass. They are not like yeast in a brewery, which cannot break down cellulose and must be given sugar. Too much sugar produces too much lactic acid, killing off microbes, and though grass does contain sugar, it also contains a lot of fiber, and it’s not comparable to feeding fruit where this argument is usually used.

It’s not that tortoises can’t digest sugars, because they absolutely can. It’s also not that the microbes are not “used” to high levels of sugar. It’s that they can’t digest large amounts of sugar fed too quickly without it lowering the pH of the large intestine.

That’s my understanding of it, anyway.