Overfeeding Aldabra?

ben awes

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I've got a young aldabra - 33 months old (Uncle Bri - you can see lots of photos on my Uncle Bri Update thread). He/she is 18lbs and has gained about 8 pounds since last october, about a pound a month. My young guy happens to have a small crack on his plastron that appears not to be caused by an injury. I am working on this issue with my vet who is consulting other vets in the country. Anyway, to make a long story short a consulting vet looking at the crack added that my tort is being significantly overfed and suggested that growth rates like mine will harm the animal over time.

I know that overfeeding is a common issue in a lot of captive animals, but from my time on the forum, the growth of my guy does not seem out of line. I would just like to get others feedback.

Also, might a high growth rate cause undo stress.crack?

Thanks!
 

wellington

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Wow, interesting. What does he eat on an average day? Have you taken a look at some of ALDABRAMAN's threads and compared some of his younger ones sizes and weights to yours? Maybe @tortadise and @Yvonne G can help with the weights and sizes of theirs compared to yours.
 

tortadise

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Excellent quandaries. I too have been wondering this. As my 2 year old is almost the same size. I figure perhaps it isn't over feeding if offered proper areas to graze. However in the wild they do undergo a winter which slows them down and extreme heat during the day in the summer which slows them from eating too. So in turn a constant food supply may be considered over feeding perhaps yes. But I think in captivity the care is always going to be different with the goal of achieving wild like events and growths. Your animal should be just fine. Given great diet, sun and grass to graze will end in great results. Time will tell. But should be just fine.
 

ALDABRAMAN

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Anyway, to make a long story short a consulting vet looking at the crack added that my tort is being significantly overfed and suggested that growth rates like mine will harm the animal over time.

~ This is a common problem, both over feeding and feeding the wrong food sources!
 

ALDABRAMAN

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growth rates

~ I looked at all of your pictures from your main post of Uncle Bri and do not see wide growth marks. One of the things we really emphasize to our customers is diet and they should have thin new growth lines. Here is a good example of thin new growth lines from one of ours.

00P0P_a4PeUIkW4sc_600x450.jpg
 

ben awes

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Wow, interesting. What does he eat on an average day? Have you taken a look at some of ALDABRAMAN's threads and compared some of his younger ones sizes and weights to yours? Maybe @tortadise and @Yvonne G can help with the weights and sizes of theirs compared to yours.
I have taken a look at other folks tortoises and while I realize that most captives experience a higher growth rate, mine seemed to be in line with others - but maybe I'm wrong?

His diet is about 70% Orchard Hay that I buy from Oxbow, with a small amount of the version 2 Mazuri. I soak these and chop. The rest of his diet is grazing in the warm months, cactus, aloe, and whatever fresh veggies I have on hand that I offer here and there.

I've raised several leopards this way with good success, but this is my first Aldabra.
 

ben awes

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~ I looked at all of your pictures from your main post of Uncle Bri and do not see wide growth marks. One of the things we really emphasize to our customers is diet and they should have thin new growth lines. Here is a good example of thin new growth lines from one of ours.

View attachment 136964
Thanks Greg for jumping in here. So, you think Uncle Bri has thin growth lines? Should I just be feeding less? I think I've got the diet right actually.

And about the crack - what would you do?
 

Alaskamike

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Ben, I remember at some point you estimated that Uncle Bri was growing at about 7%/ month. My CupCake has been doing that too, although she has months of less. This last month it was 5% and at 18 months old is 5.5 lbs . I seem to remember "Blossom" from @tortadise being almost 13 lbs at 24 months which is large indeed, might end up a giant - even for an Aldabra.

When I looked at all your pics of Uncle Bri he looks so strong and healthy, nice form when standing, good thick legs. But I did notice what Greg pointed out - the lack of defined growth lines like I see often on CupCake. It just seems like his shell is growing in a little different way. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it was just interesting to me. There are genetic differences for sure, in all of ours, and that's why it is so hard to predict growth, or even eventual full shape of the caprice when adult. But there is a lack of defined growth lines in Uncle Bri's shell that is different - they seem somehow diffuse. Here is a pic I took of Cupcake 2 month ago, her fastest gain month of 11%

growth lines.jpg

You can see the grey lines clearly. These were the widest I'd ever see them, usually they are a bit thinner before they turn dark she stays like that a few weeks, and then new ones start to form in a very thin line.

I've been doing allot of research on shell formation, bone growth, and the stressors on shell development because it interests me. Though some mention of too rapid growth is made in the research, the main issues in the alpha keratin (the live underneath foundation of shell and bone growth) turning into beta keratin and becoming the hard outer layer of hard shell in a healthy way seems to be the appropriate hydration of the tortoise. Without proper hydration the scutes are inflexible and push upwards creating what we all know as pyramiding. But even in pyramided tortoise, we don't see splits in the outer shell.

I would never presume to second guess a vet who is doing research into this.... but as a hobbiest, it seems very unlikely that this was caused by rapid growth in general. What interested me when I first looked at your picture of the split was that it occurred across the growth lines, not with them. With all I've learned about shell formation and bone growth this still makes no sense to me. The pressures are exerted parallel in the lines, not across them.

This has been no help, I know. Just me intrigued and trying to learn more. Keep us posted. We can all learn :)
 

ben awes

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Hi mike, I just typed out a long message and then lost it!

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts - much appreciated! I think Uncle Bri is happy and healthy, but I'm not the expert!

Regarding his growth lines, I guess I don't see the difference? I took more shots this morning- take a look. Uncle Bri is s bit more pyramided, (was that way when I got him 22 months ago and has not gotten any worse from what I can tell) but otherwise the growth lines look similar to me -

Thanks
 
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Yvonne G

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I didn't feed mine much when they were babies. They mainly grazed on the grass, clover and bushes in their yard. This is the reason they are now suffering from MBD. I think Uncle Bri is just fine the way he is. But because of the fast growth, be sure they get enough calcium to support their bones and shell.
 

ALDABRAMAN

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Without proper hydration the scutes are inflexible and push upwards creating what we all know as pyramiding.

~ I love this picture of Cupcake, Mike i share this with many of our customers as an example of proper shell growth and development!

-2 2.jpg
 

ben awes

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Yeah, that's pretty perfect growth! Mikes just showing off now sharing pics like that!
 

ALDABRAMAN

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I didn't feed mine much when they were babies. They mainly grazed on the grass, clover and bushes in their yard. This is the reason they are now suffering from MBD.

~ What would you have different regarding food sources?
 

ben awes

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I agree, from your pictures they look healthy and thin. How often to you see new growth lines?
Mike, i have no idea how often new growth lines appear! ive never tracked or even thought to track it! maybe i will now! how often does cupcake show new lines?
 

ben awes

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Excellent quandaries. I too have been wondering this. As my 2 year old is almost the same size. I figure perhaps it isn't over feeding if offered proper areas to graze. However in the wild they do undergo a winter which slows them down and extreme heat during the day in the summer which slows them from eating too. So in turn a constant food supply may be considered over feeding perhaps yes. But I think in captivity the care is always going to be different with the goal of achieving wild like events and growths. Your animal should be just fine. Given great diet, sun and grass to graze will end in great results. Time will tell. But should be just fine.
thanks Kelly, i have read that fast growth is not a problem if diet, exercise, humidity are correct, but is there enough data? if you over feed a human they get fat, they don't get taller. how can you tell if a tortoise is fat and not just big?
 

Alaskamike

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You know Greg , I'm not really certain about the timetable on growth lines appearing. It's like one day I just really notice them.
I've only thought to track weight , I think I'll pay more attention to the growth lines , how long they stay grey like that , times in between etc.
 
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