I have a desert tortoise hatchling, maybe about a month old. I am terrified because I noticed in the last couple days that his shell seems to be getting softer. I have been feeding him a pretty consistent diet and he is a good eater. I give him dandelion greens, wheat grass, and a mix of other greens (mustard greens, escarole, endive, collards). He also likes squash blossoms as a treat. He doesn't seem to care either way when I sprinkle the calcium on his food (I use repti-cal w/ D3). I was doing it a couple times a week, but have done it daily since I have noticed the shell seeming softer. He is indoors while I work w/ a UVB light, and I take him out for at least an hour on the weekends. I was taking him out after work for about 20-30 minutes, but it has been too cold by time I get home from work to do that at all this week. I have recently started soaking him daily, which he seems to enjoy. His appetite and general health seem normal except for the shell seeming softer. It definitely isn't my imagination. The soaks wouldn't make his shell softer would they? I put a call in to my vet and will wait to hear what he says. I also was thinking about having my mom take him for a couple weeks. It is warmer where she lives (she's in the desert, I'm on the coast) and she can take him outside more often. I really don't want to part with him. I'm hoping maybe the water soaks have a part in this, but I doubt it. Maybe I have a bad UVB light? I am just so sad and scared. Please help! Any advice is much appreciated.
Please help! Worried about DT hatchling
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When you are soaking him, are you putting in the calcium powder aswell?
Also would suggest soaking him 20-30 minutes 3 times a day instead of once
Also would suggest soaking him 20-30 minutes 3 times a day instead of once
I am not, I didn't know if it would disolve well. I sprinkle his food w/ it and he eats it no problem. I talked to my vet, and he just emphasized calcium and lots of natural light. He will be outside all weekend and I am going to have my mom watch him for a couple weeks to get more sun, I think. How do I make sure I am not overdoing it w/ the calcium? Does anyone have a recommendation on a great UVB light to use? I plan to try switching that out as well.
real sun... and you can get liquid calcium for the water...
good luck...
good luck...
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Hi Gwen, I'm so sorry you're going through this! What kind of UVB are you using? How far from the substrate is it positioned? Is there any kind of screen or mesh between the bulb and the substrate? I'm using a Repti Sun 10 by ZooMed, and I have it in a horizontal terrarium hood, positioned across the top of the enclosure. Make sure the UVB is directly over the basking spot, or wherever he is spending the most time hanging out, and make sure it's positioned close enough for him to be getting the full benefit. I wouldn't recommend the calcium every day for a hatchling, I read that too much calcium can inhibit absorption of other important vitamins. But then I'm no expert! I'm hoping some more knowledgeable members will chime in. Hang in there Iggy!!
When this happens with hatchlings, most people assume its a calcium UV thing. I think it is a chronic dehydration thing from when they first hatch.
All of your care, diet, supplementation and sunning routine sounds great. A lot of people don't even bother to sun hatchlings for the first few months. Now I don't agree with that, but their hatchlings don't get soft and die. When the shell is noticeably getting softer day by day, that is not a calcium or UV deficiency. Either of those deficiencies would be a very slow gradual process that would take weeks or months to manifest and show symptoms. If yours has UV lighting inside and was getting some sun nearly every day, even though it is now getting sun only on the weekends, you should not be having this problem.
To be honest, once things progress to this point it is usually too late. I would guess that this problem has nothing to do with your care. Do you know how often this baby was soaked right after hatching? Was he on rabbit pellets? Water bowl? It makes me sad to see this every time, as it is so easily prevented. What YOU are doing right now is about all that can be done. You could go spend hundreds at the vet and that will likely just stress him out more and not help anyway. If I were you I would continue the daily soaks, the great diet, the calcium supplementation, the indoor UV light, and getting him as much sun as you can. He's either going to make it or he's not. If you gave him to me and said, "Here Tom. Fix him." I would do all the same stuff you are doing.
One additional thing you could try is adding some carrot or yam baby food to the soaking water every day. This is a way to get a little more nutrition into them with an added vitamin A boost. This really helps sometimes. Just buy some jars of baby food at the grocery store and stir in a half a jar or so into the soaking water. The orange baby foods seem to work the best for this.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck and hope your little tortoise makes it through.
All of your care, diet, supplementation and sunning routine sounds great. A lot of people don't even bother to sun hatchlings for the first few months. Now I don't agree with that, but their hatchlings don't get soft and die. When the shell is noticeably getting softer day by day, that is not a calcium or UV deficiency. Either of those deficiencies would be a very slow gradual process that would take weeks or months to manifest and show symptoms. If yours has UV lighting inside and was getting some sun nearly every day, even though it is now getting sun only on the weekends, you should not be having this problem.
To be honest, once things progress to this point it is usually too late. I would guess that this problem has nothing to do with your care. Do you know how often this baby was soaked right after hatching? Was he on rabbit pellets? Water bowl? It makes me sad to see this every time, as it is so easily prevented. What YOU are doing right now is about all that can be done. You could go spend hundreds at the vet and that will likely just stress him out more and not help anyway. If I were you I would continue the daily soaks, the great diet, the calcium supplementation, the indoor UV light, and getting him as much sun as you can. He's either going to make it or he's not. If you gave him to me and said, "Here Tom. Fix him." I would do all the same stuff you are doing.
One additional thing you could try is adding some carrot or yam baby food to the soaking water every day. This is a way to get a little more nutrition into them with an added vitamin A boost. This really helps sometimes. Just buy some jars of baby food at the grocery store and stir in a half a jar or so into the soaking water. The orange baby foods seem to work the best for this.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck and hope your little tortoise makes it through.
Thanks guys. I did get a new light today in case that might help. I got the same one you have, Lauren. I was using one in a dome before. Tom, as for his care before I got him... he hatched in a friend's backyard unbeknownst to her. She lives in the high desert, north or Lancaster/Palmdale). She had separated her adults over a year ago (and thought both were male). She found Iggy (the one I'm caring for) who was small enough to sneak under her gate all the way to her front driveway. Another baby popped up in her backyard that day, and she found a third the following day. I talked to her last night and although its hard to tell over the phone, I got the impression their shells seem ok. I have no idea how long they might have been cruising around the yard before she found them, but maybe they could have been a little dehydrated... I don't know. I'm worried sick. I really appreciate your comments and support. This forum has been a great resource to me and really helps me not feel alone. Iggy has brought me so much joy in the short little time he's been with me, I'm going to keep doing all I can to give him a good shot at a long and healthy life.
I re-read your original post and two things occurred to me.
1. Desert tortoises do have a bit of a softer more pliable plastron when they are babies. I can't tell you if yours is "normal" without feeling it first hand. What concerned me so much is your firm assertion that is has really changed over the course of the last two days. I still think the best course of action is to continue doing what you have been doing.
2. Are you using one of those coil type UV bulbs? Those can damage their eyes. I recommend against them.
Can you tell us a bit more about his enclosure? What are your four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking, and night? Does he have a water bowl? What substrate is he on? Humid hide box? What are you using for day heat and what are you using for night heat? What size enclosure is it? I'm just thinking that maybe we should cover all the basics.
1. Desert tortoises do have a bit of a softer more pliable plastron when they are babies. I can't tell you if yours is "normal" without feeling it first hand. What concerned me so much is your firm assertion that is has really changed over the course of the last two days. I still think the best course of action is to continue doing what you have been doing.
2. Are you using one of those coil type UV bulbs? Those can damage their eyes. I recommend against them.
Can you tell us a bit more about his enclosure? What are your four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking, and night? Does he have a water bowl? What substrate is he on? Humid hide box? What are you using for day heat and what are you using for night heat? What size enclosure is it? I'm just thinking that maybe we should cover all the basics.
1. I don't think the shell's changed drastically over two days, it's just that I noticed in these couple days that the pliable part of the shell seems to be larger. Originally was just the middle spot of the plastron, but now seems to be more generalized, and a little more pronounced in the middle.
2. I was not using a coil bulb, but one that had the verical structures for the bulb. Any thoughts on the tube mvb light under a hood?
3. I am looking to improve my indoor enclosure set-up. I have had him in a terrarium these last few weeks, I think it's 30gal., w/ a screen top. Using a basking light/UVB bulb on a timer. Was on for 12hr days but recently increased to 13. He does have a water bowl in there and I leave chopped greens on a coffee can lid as well (but then I feed him when I soak him or he goes outside also). I have been using cypress mulch for substrate, but someone had mentioned to me to try the alfalfa pellets. It seemed as if there was a lot of conflicting info on this online. I've had a hard time getting the temps right. I don't think I'm getting enough of a range. I'm not using anything for heat yet at night. I close the windows at night, and the temp is consistently 75. During the day, the "cool side" can get from high 70s to 80 or so. The warm side is usally low 90s. I have been reading about tortoise tables as an alternative to controlling the temps. I have not been checking the basking spot differently from the warm side, so I'm not sure how much of a difference that might be. Usually Iggy would go under the basking light first thing every morning, but he has been slower coming out of his hide in the mornings. For his hide, I am using a u-shaped rock that covers him completely, like a cave. He digs the substrate around so he kind of nestles himself (or herself) in. How much humidity should a desert tortoise have in the enclosure?
2. I was not using a coil bulb, but one that had the verical structures for the bulb. Any thoughts on the tube mvb light under a hood?
3. I am looking to improve my indoor enclosure set-up. I have had him in a terrarium these last few weeks, I think it's 30gal., w/ a screen top. Using a basking light/UVB bulb on a timer. Was on for 12hr days but recently increased to 13. He does have a water bowl in there and I leave chopped greens on a coffee can lid as well (but then I feed him when I soak him or he goes outside also). I have been using cypress mulch for substrate, but someone had mentioned to me to try the alfalfa pellets. It seemed as if there was a lot of conflicting info on this online. I've had a hard time getting the temps right. I don't think I'm getting enough of a range. I'm not using anything for heat yet at night. I close the windows at night, and the temp is consistently 75. During the day, the "cool side" can get from high 70s to 80 or so. The warm side is usally low 90s. I have been reading about tortoise tables as an alternative to controlling the temps. I have not been checking the basking spot differently from the warm side, so I'm not sure how much of a difference that might be. Usually Iggy would go under the basking light first thing every morning, but he has been slower coming out of his hide in the mornings. For his hide, I am using a u-shaped rock that covers him completely, like a cave. He digs the substrate around so he kind of nestles himself (or herself) in. How much humidity should a desert tortoise have in the enclosure?
I'm not understanding what bulb you are using now. There are four basic types:
1. Regular incandescent. Like from the hardware store. Screws into a normal lightbulb fixture.
2. Mercury vapor bulb. The Powersun is one of these. Also screws in to a regular fixture.
3. Tube type florescent. This is a long tube that twists or clicks into its own fixture.
4. Coil type compact florescent. This is a low wattage screw in type of bulb.
Which type are you using? Does it screw in? Is it longer than 18"? If you don't know can you google it and post a link?
Your enclosure and substrate sound fine. They don't need a lot of general humidity, but its good for them to have a humid hide where they can sleep and hang out. This simulates what they would have in the wild when they would retreat into their burrow to get out of the desert heat. Anyhow, I don't think this relates to your problem. You do need to know your basking temp though. If its not warm enough, he can't digest his food properly.
1. Regular incandescent. Like from the hardware store. Screws into a normal lightbulb fixture.
2. Mercury vapor bulb. The Powersun is one of these. Also screws in to a regular fixture.
3. Tube type florescent. This is a long tube that twists or clicks into its own fixture.
4. Coil type compact florescent. This is a low wattage screw in type of bulb.
Which type are you using? Does it screw in? Is it longer than 18"? If you don't know can you google it and post a link?
Your enclosure and substrate sound fine. They don't need a lot of general humidity, but its good for them to have a humid hide where they can sleep and hang out. This simulates what they would have in the wild when they would retreat into their burrow to get out of the desert heat. Anyhow, I don't think this relates to your problem. You do need to know your basking temp though. If its not warm enough, he can't digest his food properly.
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If Gwen is running the same bulb I am, it's the Repti Sun 10, it's approx. 8" long and goes into one socket. I'm using it with a horizontal-type reflector hood. (Not to be confused with the dreaded coil Repti Glo 10). http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00061V53Y/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
I too was wondering how soft we're talking on the texture of Iggy's shell... I noticed that our Little Liam's shell is still somewhat pliant and flexible, nowhere near as hard as an adult's shell would be. I may be wrong, but I thought this was normal for a very young hatchling?
Oh and one more thing... I tried out Tom's carrot baby food soak on Liam a few weeks back when he seemed to be struggling, and I think it helped! You may want to give that a try, it couldn't hurt. Please keep us posted!
I too was wondering how soft we're talking on the texture of Iggy's shell... I noticed that our Little Liam's shell is still somewhat pliant and flexible, nowhere near as hard as an adult's shell would be. I may be wrong, but I thought this was normal for a very young hatchling?
Oh and one more thing... I tried out Tom's carrot baby food soak on Liam a few weeks back when he seemed to be struggling, and I think it helped! You may want to give that a try, it couldn't hurt. Please keep us posted!
Oh, I can't take credit for the baby food soaks. I learned that here on the forum. I think from Maggie or Yvonne.
Personally, I don't trust any of the cfl bulbs. I have no way of knowing if this is at all related to what is going on, but I have seen cases of lethargy and loss of appetite many times under these bulbs. In my mind these and the coil bulbs are all the same thing. I've seen too many problems and I don't trust them.
Here's an idea. Try removing the bulb for a few days and just use a regular incandescent heat bulb for a few days, and see if there is any change.
Personally, I don't trust any of the cfl bulbs. I have no way of knowing if this is at all related to what is going on, but I have seen cases of lethargy and loss of appetite many times under these bulbs. In my mind these and the coil bulbs are all the same thing. I've seen too many problems and I don't trust them.
Here's an idea. Try removing the bulb for a few days and just use a regular incandescent heat bulb for a few days, and see if there is any change.
I took Iggy to the reptile vet today. I didn't expect him to do much, but I needed the reassurance. He's still eating well but moving a little slower, though the vet said maybe that could be because fall is coming. He is up to 40 grams from 23 on Labor Day. The vet said his eyes looked good, movement and BM were good. His shell was a little soft, but DT hatchlings have that, he said. My concern is that he went from having a pliable but firm spot in the middle of the plastron, to where it feels like the soft area is a little larger and feels weaker (like I would hurt him if I pressed hard, doesn't have as much resistance). It feels weaker I guess, a little smushy. The vet stressed the importance of a little natural light every day. I don't get home from work until 6:00pm so my mom is going to take care of him for a couple weeks. It is warm and sunny there and he can get some good quality rays there. I have to fly across country next month for a wedding so he will probably just stay at my mom's until I get back.
The light I have now is the same as Lauren's, but I think I did have a coil bulb before! It was also a Reptisun 10.0 (the same as my new one), but in a bulb w/ a dome fixture. With the long light, I open the screen top of the terrarium so it can't block any of it. I did discover Iggy's new favorite food is wheatgrass. The softening of the shell is really scary, but his good appetite helps me keep some hope that he'll make it through. I'll just keep doing everything I can and hope for the best.
The vet also said he looked closer to 8 weeks old, so maybe he was loose in the backyard longer than I thought, which definitely might have caused some dehydration...
The light I have now is the same as Lauren's, but I think I did have a coil bulb before! It was also a Reptisun 10.0 (the same as my new one), but in a bulb w/ a dome fixture. With the long light, I open the screen top of the terrarium so it can't block any of it. I did discover Iggy's new favorite food is wheatgrass. The softening of the shell is really scary, but his good appetite helps me keep some hope that he'll make it through. I'll just keep doing everything I can and hope for the best.
The vet also said he looked closer to 8 weeks old, so maybe he was loose in the backyard longer than I thought, which definitely might have caused some dehydration...
Hi...sorry to hear of your distress. Baby torts do have soft shells, but if you feel like it's getting softer, then listen to Tom because he knows. I didn't have that problem with my torts when they were only a month old, but I remember feeling their plastron and it was really frightening. Of course, after a while, it all went away and my torts just started getting bigger and stronger. If, for whatever reason, your tort is not absorbing the vitamins and minerals from the food he's eating, those warm soaks with baby foods really do wonders. Also, powder calcium can be sprinkled into the warm soaks perhaps 2-3 times a week for a while. I don't think your tort will overdose on that. But more importantly, the baby needs natural sunlight for at least 30 minutes a day--one hour is better. If you cannot provide that because of work, did you think of taking him to work with you? Is there somewhere that you can place him so that when you take your lunch, you can get him out into some sun? It's just a though, and I don't know if your employer allows it, but it's worth a try to keep your baby with you.
I have thought of taking him to work! I have an hr lunch break and we have a beautiful courtyard outside he could cruise around in. I have a perfect part of the yard I am planning to build an outdoor enclosure in, but I was thinking I would get it ready before spring and keep him indoors mostly until then.
That sounds great. If I understood you correctly, this is a way you can keep your baby with you, expose him to real sunlight, and keep an eye on him most of the day. You don't have to wait until you build your outside enclosure to expose him to sunlight. Like I said, if you expose him to sunlight during your lunch break, that should be enough sunlight for him. During the rest of the day, you can have him in an enclosure that is out of the way, but allows you to check on him from time to time, perhaps changing his food or adding fresh water until it's time to go home. Can you do that?
gwen123 said:
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Tom said:
Bummer to hear that, to think I replaced that awful coil with something that's no better! What type of UVB bulb would you recommend? (I'm thinking in particular about the coming winter, when it's too cold to take our tortlings out.)
Not trying to hijack your discussion Gwen!
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Unfortunately I don't have any sage advice to impart, seeing as I'm a brand new CDT hatchling mama myself, but I wanted you to know that you're both in my thoughts.
I can't imagine what I would feel like if Owen were to get sick.
I can't imagine what I would feel like if Owen were to get sick.
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