Ploughshare Tortoise at Virginia Safari park

[billskleins]

AnnV
In this day of cutting funding to everything, all institutions have to prioritize usage of what funds they receive.
I'm sure your favorite zoo or institution would be very happy to receive funding for such a program.

 

[deadheadvet]

Outside of Behler, the only 2 zoos that have breeding groups of Ploughshares are Zoo Atlanta and the Knoxville Zoo. Each have 3 adult pairs.
USFWS don't want to have what happened with the Radiated tortoise to happen with Ploughshare tortoises. They have an amazing amount of paperwork to do to issue every permit for Radiateds. Can you imagine what would happen if they allowed individuals to start taking ownership of Ploughshares?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Outside of Behler, the only 2 zoos that have breeding groups of Ploughshares are Zoo Atlanta and the Knoxville Zoo. Each have 3 adult pairs.
USFWS don't want to have what happened with the Radiated tortoise to happen with Ploughshare tortoises. They have an amazing amount of paperwork to do to issue every permit for Radiateds. Can you imagine what would happen if they allowed individuals to start taking ownership of Ploughshares?

Really? What paperwork is that?

I got the CBWP, I had alot of forms to fill out, resume, images of enclosures etc, etc,. they had to read and stamp Yes or No. I'm reasonably sure that it took less than say two hours of any accumulation of effort on their part, so that would mean $100 and hour. Due again in a few years, Each intervening year is a report to file. A report that I fill out.

They publish in the Federal Register what is happening and circulate a who everyone is follow-up, but those are marginal costs in an established system, not custom per applicant costs.

On the other side, of this, If you could afford a Ploughshare, then you could afford a higher fee, and that might even make it a revenue generating system.

My imagination of private ownership of all CITES 1 animals, or any other way you want to slice it, which species are regulated and how, it should not be about the species, but rather the care parameters such as for most mammals etc.

This crosses over the killer whale matter on another thread, SeaWorld has followed regulations and laws to own and exhibit an animal that is wholly unsuitable for captivity. So following the ownership rules in and of themselves is a control issue, not withstanding the actual care given to the animals. I'm sure SeaWorld follows all the laws associated with Marine Mammals, and I know THAT is a paperwork nightmare, making ownership of a radiated that happen to cross state lines a simpleton effort.

So it's really not about the suitability of captive or not, and not about how endangered the animal is, as evidenced by so many other critically endangered species moving about within the confines of legal activity. I really do not find the cost of monitoring this activity a reasonable argument. Car registration is more controlled than any wildlife, and it is done reasonable well on a massive scale. It about keeping up appearances. The bigger the badge, the better the law enforcement.

I in no way shape or form, have a negative thing to say about the methods and effectiveness of the ever growing entities that Eric Goode has created. But consider that pushing the conservation message would be like if Radiated's were still the flag ship/keystone species. Radiated's have lost much of their sexyness, so at least we still have ploughshares to hold out in front of the conservation funding world of the west, while being bred in great abundance illegally in some Asian countries by 'hobbyists'.

I guess if there were more conservation philanthropists in China, or India, the reverse might be happening. But right now it is wealth from Western country philanthropists that drive the conservation machine on a global basis. And that is why the USFWS keeps a lid on it, their mission is conservation, they are not idiots at all. The funds driven into conservation through the west is what drives the laws they select to create and enforce.

Ploughshares are the politically convenient animal to hinge most chelonian conservation on, now maybe even usurping marine species, which as migratory animals have also lost much sexyness. We can save them here on our shores, but that does little good if they get slaughtered in Mexico (or wherever), Yes?

I still have not seen any of these images either, from the OP. Just a thread grabber title of the day, way back when now? Or do we finally believe some just got a name mixed up?

Will

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

A politician once told me that words like critical, threatened, endangered simply generate cash/up funding. Has "nothing to do with any of it."
I never forgot that statement.
He said it about the California desert tortoise but I am sure the tactic is used by the government, cross platform, multi-agency.
The recent foot stomping extortion tactic about the desert tortoises in Nevada. No funding, they die ... is a perfect example of this.
One five nine million and no sustainable plan and then We the People have to protect the protected from the protectors.
Bleh. Is there bad karma for using animals like that? Good.

 

[xiaobochu]

see this?

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Beautiful! And big. Big and beautiful! Thanks for sharing. : )

 

[xiaobochu]

It is a Dream tortoise!

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Certainly is, yes! It is a very magical tortoise. : )

 

[xiaobochu]

but I took pic in another park not in Virginia..

 

[tortadise]

Outside of Behler, the only 2 zoos that have breeding groups of Ploughshares are Zoo Atlanta and the Knoxville Zoo. Each have 3 adult pairs.
USFWS don't want to have what happened with the Radiated tortoise to happen with Ploughshare tortoises. They have an amazing amount of paperwork to do to issue every permit for Radiateds. Can you imagine what would happen if they allowed individuals to start taking ownership of Ploughshares?

Really? What paperwork is that?

I got the CBWP, I had alot of forms to fill out, resume, images of enclosures etc, etc,. they had to read and stamp Yes or No. I'm reasonably sure that it took less than say two hours of any accumulation of effort on their part, so that would mean $100 and hour. Due again in a few years, Each intervening year is a report to file. A report that I fill out.

They publish in the Federal Register what is happening and circulate a who everyone is follow-up, but those are marginal costs in an established system, not custom per applicant costs.

On the other side, of this, If you could afford a Ploughshare, then you could afford a higher fee, and that might even make it a revenue generating system.

My imagination of private ownership of all CITES 1 animals, or any other way you want to slice it, which species are regulated and how, it should not be about the species, but rather the care parameters such as for most mammals etc.

This crosses over the killer whale matter on another thread, SeaWorld has followed regulations and laws to own and exhibit an animal that is wholly unsuitable for captivity. So following the ownership rules in and of themselves is a control issue, not withstanding the actual care given to the animals. I'm sure SeaWorld follows all the laws associated with Marine Mammals, and I know THAT is a paperwork nightmare, making ownership of a radiated that happen to cross state lines a simpleton effort.

So it's really not about the suitability of captive or not, and not about how endangered the animal is, as evidenced by so many other critically endangered species moving about within the confines of legal activity. I really do not find the cost of monitoring this activity a reasonable argument. Car registration is more controlled than any wildlife, and it is done reasonable well on a massive scale. It about keeping up appearances. The bigger the badge, the better the law enforcement.

I in no way shape or form, have a negative thing to say about the methods and effectiveness of the ever growing entities that Eric Goode has created. But consider that pushing the conservation message would be like if Radiated's were still the flag ship/keystone species. Radiated's have lost much of their sexyness, so at least we still have ploughshares to hold out in front of the conservation funding world of the west, while being bred in great abundance illegally in some Asian countries by 'hobbyists'.

I guess if there were more conservation philanthropists in China, or India, the reverse might be happening. But right now it is wealth from Western country philanthropists that drive the conservation machine on a global basis. And that is why the USFWS keeps a lid on it, their mission is conservation, they are not idiots at all. The funds driven into conservation through the west is what drives the laws they select to create and enforce.

Ploughshares are the politically convenient animal to hinge most chelonian conservation on, now maybe even usurping marine species, which as migratory animals have also lost much sexyness. We can save them here on our shores, but that does little good if they get slaughtered in Mexico (or wherever), Yes?

I still have not seen any of these images either, from the OP. Just a thread grabber title of the day, way back when now? Or do we finally believe some just got a name mixed up?

Will

Will USFW will only allow possesion of these with an endangered species permit for said species. Same goes for Geometric. CBW works for Ploughshare/geometric as well. However they have to be documented from captive parents. So F1 specimens would not be considered legal under CBW permit. Its a very gray area in my opinion. Because lots of Radiata are not f2 or f3 yet. Some are now of course. But still, who can prove through documentation that they are.

At least this is what I got from a conversation with USFW head biologist few months ago. Lots of gray areas for sure. But they require a ES permit.

 

[deadheadvet]

It does help to be AZA accredited. Whether you like Eric Goode or not, he has done a lot of good things with his own money. His center is accredited which helped them get a lot of the really endangered animals for breeding purposes. That's not to say that there aren't some top notch breeders with great facilities in private settings in the US, but USFWS has an agenda they will stick to, and will be difficult to get through all the red tape to try and get animals like Yniphora.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Yeah, so the analogy was that the reason USFWS does NOT allow some CITES 1 animals is because the paperwork nightmare would be like radiateds. I posted the paperwork for radiateds is not complicated. Radiated paperwork is not complicated. No paperwork for other CITES 1 animals is a choice not made on a paperwork burden, IMO, as the paperwork is not burdensome for some CITES 1 animals, while it is for others. The paperwork is IMO not bearing on why the different animals are allowed or not.

If radiated are the proverbial 'cat outa the bag', and they are fairing in captivity as well as they are, then LOGIC, would indicate that as long as national borders are done well, intrastate is easy. After all the National border for radiateds IS the same as for ploughshares, YES? A complete blackout into the US.

It's about sexyness. The most liberal estimate for Forsten's is more limited than even the most conservative estimate for radiateds, yet they are CITES 2 and flow in to the USA just fine. As one example of it's not really about scarcity or conservation.

And back to the OP, even if no image of a ploughshare will be forthcoming, how about that 14 inch smooth Sri Lankan star?