At what age would tortoises normally have "pyramided" by if they are going to? Is there a point where the shell is "set" as smooth and would no longer pyramid despite poor diets/husbandry? I ask because it always amazes me the number of tortoises that you see on various websites for sale that are clearly being kept in the complete opposite conditions to those normally recommended and that have completely the wrong substrate, incorrect diets in their dishes and no signs of water and yet their shells are smooth. I realise this doesn't mean they are "healthy" but it just seems a bit ironic and have wondered if these tortoises have perhaps been purchased from a source that did give them the correct conditions for say the first 12 months of life??? Just pondering how it all happens and would appreciate opinions. Thanks.
Pyramiding age?
- Thread starter vikki01
- Start date
We can only do what we know works, and so far we know that keeping baby tortoises humid/moist works. I'm sure there are other things that work too, however, we haven't discovered them yet.
There are a whole lot of very smooth tortoises in Arizona, where it is very hot and very dry, and quite a few of those tortoise keepers never heard of the keep-'em-wet method. It would be great if we could figure out what they have done to raise smooth sulcatas.
Bottom line is, the wet/humid method is only one way to grow a smooth sulcata. And I'll continue to use that method until I learn a different or better way.
There are a whole lot of very smooth tortoises in Arizona, where it is very hot and very dry, and quite a few of those tortoise keepers never heard of the keep-'em-wet method. It would be great if we could figure out what they have done to raise smooth sulcatas.
Bottom line is, the wet/humid method is only one way to grow a smooth sulcata. And I'll continue to use that method until I learn a different or better way.
As long as a tort is growing it's shell can pyramid. Once it has stopped growing MBD may take hold but it can't pyramid.
So the next question is when does a tort stop growing? Unfortunately there is no answer to that as it varies with species, food and environment. You can safely assume that your tort will not reach full size for well over 10 years - probably much longer.
So the next question is when does a tort stop growing? Unfortunately there is no answer to that as it varies with species, food and environment. You can safely assume that your tort will not reach full size for well over 10 years - probably much longer.
You also have to see where these people are from. Florida is naturally very humid. Arizona is not. Unlike Yvonne, I haven't seen any tortoises from Arizona that aren't pyramided unless they have added humidity.
Charlie has been raised in California all his life. His shell isn't completely smooth but it is pretty darn good considering we didn't know about humidity. The things I did right were soaking him when he was a baby and feeding him weeds from the beginning. When he was a baby, he was kept in an aquarium. I can't remember what substrate I used but I know it wasn't wet. I bet the breeder did all the right things since at least I was told to soak him, so maybe those first weeks are key.
I am in the UK - what I find odd is that you have people who seem to do all of the "right things" but still have difficulty achieving smooth growth or can have 2 tortoises in the same conditions with different growth, then you have the tortoises who appear to have lived in bad conditions with completely the wrong diet but at least externally appear great which would surely then perhaps suggest that "appearances can be deceptive"!??
Hence why I wonder if say by the time they are maybe 12-18 months if they haven't pyramided by then that they are not going to for some reason or are some simply (genetically??) programmed to be more prone to it????
Hence why I wonder if say by the time they are maybe 12-18 months if they haven't pyramided by then that they are not going to for some reason or are some simply (genetically??) programmed to be more prone to it????
This is a very good question. I've often wonder if someone aquires let's say a 4" wild caught redfoot then rears it along side a captive bread hatchling in dry conditions what would happen. Is the path already set for a well established smooth 4" tort to carry on growing smooth. This would account for why a lot of the big old testudos in the UK are smooth but yet kept dry. That said most used to keep them outdoors, we are quite a wet and humid country.
I have a wild caught redfoot. 13" ish. You can definitely see where care has changed over its life, but it's relatively smooth. There is signs of defect from captive care though, but not pyramiding, in fact I think you can see the point it was taken from the wild.
People have definitely got pyramided Tortoises to smooth out later in the growth after a bad start. Not sure about the opposite, after all who would want to pyramid a smooth starter intentionally.
Speedy-1
Well-Known Member
I agree , when I first joined and did some reading I realized I would be in trouble without the humid conditions being met ! I made a point of creating a humid environment for Speedy , and soaking him daily for an hour ! I am happy with the results , and would advise anyone to use the methods suggested by our forum !
Vikki, have you seen any smooth tortoises in the UK that are not testudo, that were captive bred and raised with the dry method?
In my UK experience - the old wild caught Testudo left in the garden for the last 50 years - are invariably not pyramidded. Shell defects due to early diet but not pyramidding.
Our climate may be cool, but it's moist and I suspect the survivors grew slow enough in our climate and took on a healthy weed diet by default. The lettuce and cucumber they got fed was/is only ever a supplement.
Basically, the torts have done OK left to their own devices- they know what to eat and our climate may not be ideal but isn't so harsh that it causes severe harm.
The captive-breds and those raised indoors are more varied. And the pyramidding is in that group.
So it is probably alot more to do with modern husbandry methods creating the problems but still wonder if the pattern is set at a young age?Have I seen smooth tortoises captive bred and raised "incorrectly"? - It certainly appears that way on some of our for sale sites - tortoises raised on dry"pellets" with no apparent sign of any water in the enclosure. This is what bought up mt original question as I can only base my presumptioons on the pictures that are being posted however if the tortoise was given better conditions when younger has that accounted for the smooth growth of a tortoise that is now 4-5 years old for example? In the Uk hardly anybody uses closed chambers and vivariums are generally frowned upon so therefore alot of tortoises are on tables that can (as I personally know!!) dry out quite rapidly so it is quite difficult to compare methods
I think the captive breds haven't been around in sufficient numbers for long enough for us to know yet.
We can judge the old wild caughts, but the number of 50 year old captive breds is very small. Give it another 20 years and judgement may be more easily made.
We can judge the old wild caughts, but the number of 50 year old captive breds is very small. Give it another 20 years and judgement may be more easily made.
I agree with you 100%, that's what I was getting at. Our climate is suited to testudo species , yeah it's on the cooler end but everything else falls in, virtually every morning the grass is wet with dew, this country is humid and its the weed capital if the world .
I remember as a child on our street alone a lot of households had the testudo species. They all just left them to live in the garden , come September, put them into hibernation.
So if someone is referring to raising any testudo as 'dry' outside in this country, it's a void statement.
I have 3 juveniles, 2 smooth, 1with minor pyramiding. Got them all from same pet store, the minor pyramided one was bigger than the smooth ones when I ot them. In this shop they had yearlings that were pyramided. All juveniles were cb. When I got my 3, was it a case of because that shop had the slightly pyramided one for that bit longer than the other 2 that the writing was already on the wall. I've cared for all 3 the same.
Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.
Read that again and think about it a bit…
That simple statement carries a lot of implications. For example, in your original post asking about tortoises that are smooth, but housed in the "wrong" conditions: Are they growing? They won't pyramid if they aren't growing.
Also notice that my opening sentence says nothing about diet. That's because diet has nothing to do with pyramiding. You can feed them the wrong diet and still grow them smooth. You can feed them the right diet and in small quantities for slow growth and they will still pyramid.
About the age thing: Tortoises shell resist any change in th way they are growing. A patter of smooth growth wants to continue growing smooth. A pattern of pyramided growth want to continue pyramiding. It takes time and drastically different growing conditions to change this growth pattern.
It does seem that at least some species reach a certain size and their bodies become acclimated enough to the environment that the pyramiding slows or stops. This is typically seen in larger sulcatas, like the ones in AZ that Yvonne mentioned. One thing I have noted that all those smooth AZ tortoises have in common is very hot weather, and they all use a burrow.
I don't think there is any set number of inches for a tortoise to be completely out of the woods. If someone with a smooth 18" male sulcata moves from South FL to Southern CA, they will see really rough growth and some level of pyramiding. Conversely, if the SoCal tortoise moves to FL, the growth will smooth out and begin to look better.
Read that again and think about it a bit…
That simple statement carries a lot of implications. For example, in your original post asking about tortoises that are smooth, but housed in the "wrong" conditions: Are they growing? They won't pyramid if they aren't growing.
Also notice that my opening sentence says nothing about diet. That's because diet has nothing to do with pyramiding. You can feed them the wrong diet and still grow them smooth. You can feed them the right diet and in small quantities for slow growth and they will still pyramid.
About the age thing: Tortoises shell resist any change in th way they are growing. A patter of smooth growth wants to continue growing smooth. A pattern of pyramided growth want to continue pyramiding. It takes time and drastically different growing conditions to change this growth pattern.
It does seem that at least some species reach a certain size and their bodies become acclimated enough to the environment that the pyramiding slows or stops. This is typically seen in larger sulcatas, like the ones in AZ that Yvonne mentioned. One thing I have noted that all those smooth AZ tortoises have in common is very hot weather, and they all use a burrow.
I don't think there is any set number of inches for a tortoise to be completely out of the woods. If someone with a smooth 18" male sulcata moves from South FL to Southern CA, they will see really rough growth and some level of pyramiding. Conversely, if the SoCal tortoise moves to FL, the growth will smooth out and begin to look better.
@Tom a tort that has stopped growing can't pyramid though can it? So there would eventually be a point at which the risk would go.
That's not to say the tort wouldn't be adversely affected by poor conditions at that point - it's just the affects would be different
That's not to say the tort wouldn't be adversely affected by poor conditions at that point - it's just the affects would be different
Tom. If you are right about diet not effecting pyramiding, then why do have 1 out of 3 with minor pyramiding? Do you have any thoughts on this? The only variables I can think of are diet quantity, infrared and uv exposure, stress levels and humidity levels at night.
The humidity levels at night thing could be, because he grew bigger faster I haven't provided deep enough moss for him to keep the entire carapace covered through the night.
Don't laugh, but with my 2 new hatchlings I tuck them in at night(yeah I hear you). Even though they dig in I make sure the moist moss covers the carapace. Actually because they are so tiny they fully cover themselves for now. Im keeping records of what I feed every day(no groceries), if these grow smooth, next step is exactly the same but feed more stuff they can't resist, protein etc. I'm not feeding these meat protein until 6 months old.
Your input pleeeeaaaase
This is still an unknown. I can raise 10 hatchlings of any species in identical conditions, with identical diets and routines and 2 or 3 of them will show some mild pyramiding despite my best efforts, while the other 7 or 8 look great. I suspect stress for a variety of reasons, but the only way to test that theory is to raise 10 together and another 10 from the same clutch individually, all in the exact same conditions. I don't have the time or space for that anymore. This happens with leopards, sulcatas, russians and stars, and I've seen it in other people's collections with other species too.
