Pyramiding and weight check!

[okkarence]

Hi everyone! I have an almost 1 and a half year old eastern/dalmatian hermann's tortoise and I was wondering if anyone here could help me out. Dash is my very first pet, I love him (or her!) with all my heart and I just want to make sure I'm giving him the best life I can.

Although i did extensive research before I got him i'd actually never seen a baby hermann's tortoise in person before. I knew all about severe pyramiding but I honestly didn't notice his when i first got him at 7 months old. I genuinely thought that's what tortoises are supposed to look like, and surely since I got him from the best reptile shop in the county, he couldn't possibly already be pyramiding, right? The thought didn't even enter my mind until he started growing like crazy and it became more bumpy and noticeable.

I first got Dash at 39 grams, 5cm SCL. That made him a 0.312 on the Jackson ratio, which is pretty severely overweight. 9 months later, he is 122 grams, 7.9cm SCL and 0.247 on the ratio! So still a little heavy but he does have pyramiding and i think I'm doing okay even though i did overfeed him for the first couple of months (beginner's mistake).

I'm gonna put a few pictures down below to compare what he looked like at 7 months old (first 5 photos) and what he looks like now. Is the pyramiding getting worse? It seems to be smoothing out really well in the front but his vertebral scutes and towards the back look pretty bumpy. He has an extra costal scute on his left back side that looks particularly bad. Is his new growth smooth and is he growing too fast? I'm honestly very worried.

I'm also annoyed with the independent reptile shop who sold to me. They told me to soak him once a week at 7 months old, which i immediately knew was wrong. Looking back at the photos now it's very clear that Dash wasn't properly taken care of since hatching. I live in Ireland which is quite a small place so unfortunately i didn't have much choice in breeders/reptile shops, but this was meant to be the best. I guess i just need some reassurance that I'm doing right by him now because I've been very stressed out since i noticed all this!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

What is the humidity level in your enclosure?
What are you using for heat and light?
Are you soaking him/her?

 

[Tom]

Hi everyone! I have an almost 1 and a half year old eastern/dalmatian hermann's tortoise and I was wondering if anyone here could help me out. Dash is my very first pet, I love him (or her!) with all my heart and I just want to make sure I'm giving him the best life I can.

Although i did extensive research before I got him i'd actually never seen a baby hermann's tortoise in person before. I knew all about severe pyramiding but I honestly didn't notice his when i first got him at 7 months old. I genuinely thought that's what tortoises are supposed to look like, and surely since I got him from the best reptile shop in the county, he couldn't possibly already be pyramiding, right? The thought didn't even enter my mind until he started growing like crazy and it became more bumpy and noticeable.

I first got Dash at 39 grams, 5cm SCL. That made him a 0.312 on the Jackson ratio, which is pretty severely overweight. 9 months later, he is 122 grams, 7.9cm SCL and 0.247 on the ratio! So still a little heavy but he does have pyramiding and i think I'm doing okay even though i did overfeed him for the first couple of months (beginner's mistake).

I'm gonna put a few pictures down below to compare what he looked like at 7 months old (first 5 photos) and what he looks like now. Is the pyramiding getting worse? It seems to be smoothing out really well in the front but his vertebral scutes and towards the back look pretty bumpy. He has an extra costal scute on his left back side that looks particularly bad. Is his new growth smooth and is he growing too fast? I'm honestly very worried.

I'm also annoyed with the independent reptile shop who sold to me. They told me to soak him once a week at 7 months old, which i immediately knew was wrong. Looking back at the photos now it's very clear that Dash wasn't properly taken care of since hatching. I live in Ireland which is quite a small place so unfortunately i didn't have much choice in breeders/reptile shops, but this was meant to be the best. I guess i just need some reassurance that I'm doing right by him now because I've been very stressed out since i noticed all this!

That Jackson ratio stuff is non-sense. You've been reading the wrong stuff.

Pyramiding is not caused by food or fast growth. You can grow them super slow and still make them pyramid. You can also growth them super fast with no pyramiding at all.cPyramiding is CAUSED by growth in conditions that are too dry. The speed of that growth is irrelevant. If you are using an open table with dry substrate, and a mercury vapor bulb for basking, that would be why your tortoise is pyramiding. Reptile shops all around the world are known for giving all the wrong tortoise care info and selling people all the wrong stuff.

Your tortoise should be able to eat as much of the right foods as it wants all day every day.

Here is the correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

If you want to stop the pyramiding, you'll need:
1. A large closed chamber with higher humidity.
2. A higher ambient temp in your chamber will discourage basking and minimize the desiccation from the lights.
3. Soak daily for at least 30-40 minutes.
4. A humid hide box or two within the humid enclosure.
5. Spray the carapace several times a day with demineralized water. Distilled, RO, or collected rainwater. Don't use the demineralized water for drinking or soaking.
6. The correct lighting and heating. Spot bulbs, MVBs, and halogens all make pyramiding worse.

Stopping pyramiding in progress is much more difficult than preventing it. Questions are welcome!

 

[okkarence]

That Jackson ratio stuff is non-sense. You've been reading the wrong stuff.

Pyramiding is not caused by food or fast growth. You can grow them super slow and still make them pyramid. You can also growth them super fast with no pyramiding at all.cPyramiding is CAUSED by growth in conditions that are too dry. The speed of that growth is irrelevant. If you are using an open table with dry substrate, and a mercury vapor bulb for basking, that would be why your tortoise is pyramiding. Reptile shops all around the world are known for giving all the wrong tortoise care info and selling people all the wrong stuff.

Your tortoise should be able to eat as much of the right foods as it wants all day every day.

Here is the correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

If you want to stop the pyramiding, you'll need:
1. A large closed chamber with higher humidity.
2. A higher ambient temp in your chamber will discourage basking and minimize the desiccation from the lights.
3. Soak daily for at least 30-40 minutes.
4. A humid hide box or two within the humid enclosure.
5. Spray the carapace several times a day with demineralized water. Distilled, RO, or collected rainwater. Don't use the demineralized water for drinking or soaking.
6. The correct lighting and heating. Spot bulbs, MVBs, and halogens all make pyramiding worse.

Stopping pyramiding in progress is much more difficult than preventing it. Questions are welcome!

Thank you so much for your reply! I am indeed using a mercury vapour bulb, I'll switch that out for the right lamps asap. I have an open table, i very recently switched to a mix of coco coir and reptibark for extra humidity and warmth and he loves it. I spray him and his enclosure with the right water 4-5 times a day to make sure it doesn't dry out. I used to soak him 5 times a week but ever since he turned 1 i soak him 3 times a week, that probably isn't enough. Temperature is good, just right now in winter it's hard to keep it up at night (would a ceramic heat emitter work for that?)

He also has a really blunt beak so a lot of the time he'll just give up on half his food throughout the day unless i hand feed him. He seems to find hand feeding a lot easier but I'm in college and unfortunately I'm not always home to do that for him

He has 3 hides, i put spagnum moss into one of them recently and he's been going in there a lot more since. I upgraded his enclosure in general to promote more humidity last week so we'll see how that goes, he seems to really enjoy it.

I can't afford to get an entirely new setup right now but i will do the best that i possibly can and i will soak him daily from now on. Which bulbs do you recommend? What strength?

Thank you for the input, a lot of people on the internet can be very brutal about things like this and i was very embarrassed which is why i didn't post sooner, but i really just want him to be healthy and happy. Your comment was very informative so thank you!

 

[Tom]

Thank you so much for your reply! I am indeed using a mercury vapour bulb, I'll switch that out for the right lamps asap. I have an open table, i very recently switched to a mix of coco coir and reptibark for extra humidity and warmth and he loves it. I spray him and his enclosure with the right water 4-5 times a day to make sure it doesn't dry out. I used to soak him 5 times a week but ever since he turned 1 i soak him 3 times a week, that probably isn't enough. Temperature is good, just right now in winter it's hard to keep it up at night (would a ceramic heat emitter work for that?)

He also has a really blunt beak so a lot of the time he'll just give up on half his food throughout the day unless i hand feed him. He seems to find hand feeding a lot easier but I'm in college and unfortunately I'm not always home to do that for him

He has 3 hides, i put spagnum moss into one of them recently and he's been going in there a lot more since. I upgraded his enclosure in general to promote more humidity last week so we'll see how that goes, he seems to really enjoy it.

I can't afford to get an entirely new setup right now but i will do the best that i possibly can and i will soak him daily from now on. Which bulbs do you recommend? What strength?

Thank you for the input, a lot of people on the internet can be very brutal about things like this and i was very embarrassed which is why i didn't post sooner, but i really just want him to be healthy and happy. Your comment was very informative so thank you!

Some people find my wording too blunt, so I'm glad that you read it with the helpful tone that is intended. It doesn't help you or your tortoise if the person giving the info is a jerk.

Your questions:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

They will eat the moss and it can cause impaction. I'd remove that ASAP. I tried to use it with tortoises many times over the years and ALL of them eventually eat it. Its great for frogs, some snakes and lizards, but not so good for tortoises.

3 soaks a week is plenty for hydration. Soaking daily will help with the pyramiding, but its fine if you have to skip a day now and then.

 

[okkarence]

Some people find my wording too blunt, so I'm glad that you read it with the helpful tone that is intended. It doesn't help you or your tortoise if the person giving the info is a jerk.

Your questions:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

They will eat the moss and it can cause impaction. I'd remove that ASAP. I tried to use it with tortoises many times over the years and ALL of them eventually eat it. Its great for frogs, some snakes and lizards, but not so good for tortoises.

3 soaks a week is plenty for hydration. Soaking daily will help with the pyramiding, but its fine if you have to skip a day now and then.

Thank you, i really appreciate the help! Glad to hear I'm doing a lot of things right as well because i was afraid that i was accidentally neglecting him. I will change that lighting out for the correct lighting asap and get rid of the moss.

Thank you again and happy new year!