Pyramiding Debate Twixt EJ and AH

[Redfoot NERD]

Tom Wrote:
Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.

I totally agreeTom, but a new Tortoise keeper wouldn't know any of this. Three years ago when I first went to Terry K. asking for advice, he stressed the importance of good nutrition to me, along with humidity. He gave me a list of foods to feed Pio, with the highest in calcium coming first on the list. He also told me not to supplement with vitamins or calcium until he was 6 months old and to let him get his nutrition from his food. He told me to do everything in balance, but stressed that humidity was very important. Then Andy H. told me to add the UVB light, and told me that humidity was important, but didn't stress it as much as Terry K. Confusing isn't the word. So when trying to help a new keeper, you guys have to stress the importance of balance, and just not assume that we know what it's all about.

Thank you Terry.. I appreciate the fact that you mentioned that.

Oddly enough 'some' of the info on humidity/diet did come from Highfield and is referenced on my caresheet..... however I learned mostly from Richard Fife. Guess why? His hands-on experience! Because he had been there personally! Also why I [ and others I've been told ] don't put much stock or confidence in those that base their knowledge on someone else's experience.

So when I say that the basics are basics ( my simple balanced caresheet ) and can be duplicated anywhere on the planet.. that means some may have to work harder at keeping the humidity, for example, "in balance" because of the particular environment they live in. Tom lives in an area where "you spit and it evaporates before it hits the ground" so he has to adjust accordingly.

I had leopard tortoises in my back yard [ 8 years ago ] when the temps were in the low 90's and so was the humidity. They could tolerate the temps all of the time but not the humidity 24/7 - they are now outside Dallas and producing last I heard. I would have had to build a greenhouse for them.. running "dehumidifiers" that they could access at will - possible but not practical.

I spoke briefly with Kristina earlier and she said that all of the different parts are needed.. and it's the humidity that holds it all together.. to me she was saying it creates the balance.

Terry K

 

[terryo]

LOL! And isn't that sort of the big Catch 22? A forum is not really a good place to learn a subject from scratch- whether it is tortoise care or knitting. You can learn the key issues better in other places- dedicated sites, YouTube, etc.

Mark, I have to disagree with you...how many times has a new keeper come on this forum, saying that they know nothing about their new tort that they just got? Look in the introduction sections. Then they will go through all the threads looking for information. I know that's what I did. I found Terry's site and looked through the forum for posts, also Shelled Worriers, TT, Tortoise Trust.....I joined lots of forums, asked questions, pm'd people..etc. That's how I got my information. I wanted to talk to people, not just read care sheets put out there. If I went on you tube, Pio would be dead. Have you ever seen some of the stupid things about torts on there? Most care sheets that you look up are just outskirts. Then when you go into a forum, and talk with people that have experience, and read different threads that pertain to problems that people have had with their torts, you get much more first hand information. I think that's why it so important not to assume anything. I still consider myself a "newbe" when it comes to tortoise keeping, and I still look up different threads, especially if I see Pio or Solo doing something out of the ordinary.
Tom is right when he says that climate and location has so much to do with it. I have some friends that lost their tortoise, even though they thought they did all the right things, but did not do any adjustments as per their location and climate.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Thank you again TerryO! I'll reply real short and sweet.. since you made the point so well.. BECAUSE you are experienced and yet pride doesn't get in your way of asking for help when you need it!


It's real obvious [ to me and others I'm sure ] where Mark is coming from... if you seek scientific, "headache-producing" info. However from experience.. the ones that email me daily for help want simple, easy to understand results - that work and bring life to their redfoot and peace of mind to them! Isn't that where you were when Pio was a pup?.. and you came to me. I'll leave it at that................

Terry K

 

[Yvonne G]

Greg: I raised my two Aldabs exactly like you...with natural grazing and the occational treat of leafy greens and veggies. The difference being, Florida is naturally humid, while I live in a valley similar to a desert with very dry air. My two are bumpy.

 

[Candy]

Did someone mention Killer Whales? Oh yeah CGKeith did and here's your answer.

hahaha I was waiting for you Candy!!! I LOVE it!
Btw my mom and sister went to California last week and went to Seaworld (womp womp) and my mom called me and was like "their dorsal fins seem fine!" haha at least I know she listens to me vent

Carry on friends...

eta: And I agree that it is important to stress the balance of all aspects of tortoise care. Not just the humidity. (there, trying to stay on topic )

Oh no Katie .....remember we are boycotting Sea World Don't forget to pass that on to your mother and sister next time. I'm glad to hear that you vented to them though.

Madkins, what do you mean a forum is not the place to start? I started here and Dale, Ruby and Eddie are doing great. I also have read a few books (don't tell Nerd that ) and have done some research from sites that have been mentioned here, maybe that's what you're trying to convey in your post.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Forgive me here folks.. but when you live where it's HOT and you want to be COOL you adjust [ turn on the AC ]! When you live where it's COLD and you want to be warm you turn on the HEAT. When you live where it's DRY and you want to be able to blink and breathe you use eye-drops and carry around a source of hydration.. you adjust to balance things.

Of course you have to be aware that balance is needed first.

When you live in Hawaii where it's 82 during the day and 74 at night [ whatever ] and the humidity is 50% (?).. you live in shorts with flowers hanging around your neck 24/7/365... and "balance" doesn't occur to you.

There has been a lot learned from this thread.. I hope...... thank you Tom! Whodathunk huh?

Terry K

 

[Candy]

I'm sorry I thought it was "Balboa" who started this thread?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I'm sorry I thought it was "Balboa" who started this thread?

It was Candy.. I got left-handed in thanking others for their input on this whole topic of maintaining a balance to keep tortoises healthy and looking good.. as a result.

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

Terry, etc.-
I am not trying to say that the forums are not good info, but this is not a great place to offer a new keeper all the information about housing size and construction ideas, how much heat and how to accomplish it, diet plans and food lists, and the other information they need to get started ALL AT THE SAME TIME, in an organized way.

Even the 'sarcastic old fart' does not tell newbies everything they need to know here all at the same time- he sends them to his sites.

As for bad info on YouTube, etc.- that is indeed true, but by the same token, not every word on every tortoise site is golden either. There is bad info everywhere on every topic. If a newbie could sign onto a site- on any topic- and get good info the first time and every time, then all that searching and research you had to do for Pio would not have been necessary.

Please understand, I don't mean this as a bad thing- it is just the difference between something like a forum and something like an information site or book or something.

 

[Yvonne G]

To add to what Mark has said, when a question is asked on the forum, the questioner, if a newbie, really doesn't know who is giving the answer. I've seen questions answered on here by people who's only knowledge of the subject is from what they've read, and not from personal experience with the tortoise type or the problem. Sometimes what you've read is really not the right answer.

 

[terryo]

If a newbie could sign onto a site- on any topic- and get good info the first time and every time, then all that searching and research you had to do for Pio would not have been necessary

Very true Mark, but unfortunately most sites are just one man's opinion, and that is why I had to incorporate most things that I read when doing research. Every site that I have ever gone on gave different opinions on how to do things. Also, when Pio got shell rot, what site could I have gone on to find a good cure with step by step pictures how to cure it? And even a video? You know where I found that don't you?
I still say for good information, go to a good forum,(like this one) ask questions, look up different threads, and you can find most all the information you need on almost any animal.
BTW...still can't get on your site.

---

To add to what Mark has said, when a question is asked on the forum, the questioner, if a newbie, really doesn't know who is giving the answer. I've seen questions answered on here by people who's only knowledge of the subject is from what they've read, and not from personal experience with the tortoise type or the problem. Sometimes what you've read is really not the right answer.

Absolutely!

---

BTW...just read a post that one of the so called Guru's posted on another forum.

They can eat anything...

70 to 90F...

Humidity does not matter... a humid hide is benificial.

Housing... a large terrarium or tortoise table.

Substrate... Sand... soil/sand... mulch... anything actually.

Depending on the race...12 to 36+ inches SCL.

Someone asked what the care of a Cherry Head was, and that was the answer given. So.......I'm going to have to take back some of what I said on a precious post. You can only get SOME good information on a forum, and if I was a new tortoise keeper I wouldn't know what to do next.