Pyramiding Debate Twixt EJ and AH

[Neal]

Good point Neal. How about we all look at this another way. Can anybody show me a smooth sulcata or leopard that THEY raised from a hatchling with out high humidity, moisture and hydration? CG Keith showed us a pretty nice yearling sulcata a while back.

Funny, even though I advocate high humidity, I do have that indian star and sulcatas I told you about that I raised bone dry without humid hides. The star I still have is perfectly smooth. The sulcatas I traded, one had pyramiding when I got him but the new growth was smooth, the other one was as smooth as your EOP sulcatas. I did soak them a lot, like every other day or every two days so maybe those don't really count for what your asking for. If I knew then what I know now I would have kept them, or at least taken pictures.

 

[onarock]

OK Terry, I'll play along. Again? Tell me why? I've seen pics of more pyramid leopards in the wild or as imports.....

 

[CGKeith]

I just thought of something that may or may not apply, but is interesting just the same.

I remember hearing about killer whales in captivity, their top fin will slump or hang over. But not the ones in the wild. They really don't have an explanation for this either. They get all the best care available at sea world, yet it still happens.


I do believe (from my own experience and as related here by others) that keeping a tortoises shell from overly drying out (hydration) and the humidity overall are huge factors in growing smooth(er).

But maybe, there are other things besides all the best food and humidity that we just don't understand yet.

I think others have touched on stress and the effect it has on a bodies ability to utilize the nutrition properly and how that can lower the immunity levels as well.

Maybe just being in captivity in general, usually a small enclosure, is a factor as well.

We probably won't ever have all the answers, but it is looking like we can at least narrow down some of the variables and at least reduce some of the problem by spending a little time with a spray bottle in our hand.

 

[Kristina]

Updated pictures of my Cherryhead hatchling. He is about 6 months old, by the way.

I still owe you pics of my Greek hatchling

 

[Madkins007]

I've been thinking about things Maggie, Yvonne, Kristina, the guy from Wisconsin in the Reptiles Red-foot article who wondered why his humid Red-foots still pyramided, Andy H, Carl May, Allegra F, various authors, Dr. Mader, Dr. Susan Donohue, and others have been saying, and an example Carl used finally helped something gel.

It isn't humidity. It also isn't diet, or misting, or protein, or heat.

It's EVERYTHING.

I've used a medical analogy for years to discuss a completely different topic, but it applies here. Imagine you have a headache (possibly from another of my long and technical posts ) You seek help from several health care practioners.

You ever realize that each of them will give you a different answer for the same headache? The chiropractor will try to realign your spine, the dietitian will have you eat differently. The psychiatrist will want to know the underlying stresses, the GP will give you aspirin or a similar over the counter drug, and the massage therapist will want to give you a good rub down. This guy will claim it is a seasonal issue and use phototherapy, the herbalist will go with herbs. Accupunturists, eye doctors, dentists... they will all offer varying ideas... and to a large extent- they all work!

That is because a headache is not a simple pain in your head. It makes your muscles tense, it changes the blood chemistry, it affects your eyes and taste buds and hearing and smell. It can affect your mood and thinking, even your memories. It was not usually caused by one single event, but by a coming together of many things- emotional, environmental, physical, chemical, etc.

Don't like that analogy? Let's use math! In the wild, nature produces smooth, healthy tortoises by combining 10 parts A + 10 parts B + 10 parts C (yada yada yada) + 10 parts J to make 100 parts of a healthy tortoise. In nature, if something changes, other things change as well. Only getting 6 parts A? You'll probably get 12 parts B and D to make up for it. Temperatures drop and change the food availability and humidity. Rainy season hits and changes the temps, humidity, food availablity, etc. Tortoise gets sick and self selects different microclimates and foods. It is all related and usually self-correcting.

It is not that way in our habitats. Temps fall, food and humidity remain the same. Humidity fluctuates, but lighting is a constant. Things come together that the tortoise needs more calcium, and they get the same amount they have for a month.

This is why the annoying guy raising the Red-foot on a dry substrate in a warm tank with poor quality food does not get pyramiding- he accidentally duplicated the dry season for the wild Red-foot in a savannah setting. The tortoise is growing slowly, and still getting the key nutrients it needs to support that level of growth.

This is what Maggie, Yvonne, Kristina, and others have been trying to teach us. Guys, I'm sorry it took so long to see it, and Carl, thank you for being patient enough to answer another of my endless emails!

 

[terryo]

I never see the need to add to these posts, because over thirty years keeping box turtles, and only three keeping tortoises, doesn't seem to qualify me, but Mark, this is the best post so far.
I'm sorry, but I can't even dignify calling Andy H. and Ed P. "guru's", even though I agree with some of what Andy advocates.

 

[Balboa]

Ok Folks,
I made the mistake of breaking my self imposed exile, read some more of this thread, and now feel obliged to speak my mind once again.

The listing of AH, EJ and Danny as gurus was obviously a mistake. I only did that to explain why I found the linked debate so interesting. In MY mind these guys have GREAT influence on how people all over the world care for their tortoises. AH and EJ are the guys doing the research and writing the books. I included Danny to explain why I included his take on things while appraising the debate between AH and EJ. Danny is not just active here folks. He's active on other forums too. Thousands of posts.

It was not meant to be a "popularity" contest. My ad hoc suggestion that Tom would be in their ranks someday was meant as a little fun. (even if it does have a grain of truth to it)

It was never meant to diminish the likes of Yvonne and Maggie.

This whole thing was started as I thought others might find the pyramiding debate interesting, and I was curious about the what others might take from it.

Instead it turns into bickering about gurus, and people being hurt that they are not "gurus" and thinly veiled insults at others for trying to make a point instead of constructive comments or counter points.

To those of you that kept on track despite the side-shows, thank you for your constructive input.

----------------------------------

Your statements about all of a sudden "getting it" make me chuckle Mark. It always seemed to me that you did get it as you are now expressing it, but maybe your words were expressing your subconscious faster than your mind came to its conscious conclusions. What you're stating seems right in-line with Danny's take to me about balance and looking at the whole. (which I always found humerous that he's criticed me on that, as I'm usually looking at the "whole" in my mind too )

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Updated pictures of my Cherryhead hatchling. He is about 6 months old, by the way.

I still owe you pics of my Greek hatchling

Kristina's "Black-Cherry" hatched late May '10.. his cousin below hatched late March '10 -

(he came out to eat and I picked him up and set him down in unfamiliar territory to take his pics and he never stopped - bad pics )

You know how he has been started and kept - would not sit still -

I just clicked and hoped -

I think you get the idea...

Terry K

 

[Tom]

Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.

Golden or otherwise Tom.. I always 'assumed' proper care was understood and practiced too! See what happens when we 'assume'?

Terry K

 

[Candy]

Did someone mention Killer Whales? Oh yeah CGKeith did and here's your answer.

http://oceanlink.island.net/ask/odontoceti.html states that tanks are usually shallow and the whales can only take a few strokes in any direction before coming to a wall, so they spend much of their time at the tank's surface. This can lead to skin problems and is the probable cause of fin collapse. This is because gravity pulls the dorsal fin over as the orca matures, because it is not supported by water. This happens to all captive males and many captive females.

http://oceanlink.island.net/ask/odontoceti.html#anchor662263 states that the dorsal fins are supported by cartilage. When a male goes through his "growth spurt" in the early teenage years, the dorsal fin grows really tall, really fast and becomes heavy. A whale with a straight dorsal fin has spent lots of time in deep water, where the water pressure keeps the fin upright until the cartilage hardens. Orcas that go through their growth spurt in captivity have a bent fin, as the pools aren't deep enough to create the water pressure needed to support the soft cartilage in the fin, so the weight of the fin's cartilage makes the fin flop over. Once the cartilage hardens, the fin is shaped forever.
Another possible cause of collapsed dorsal fins is due to lack of exercise through turning leading to diminished muscle tone.




Mark great post about the headaches! Understood completely. I was looking through other posts because I thought Carl had posted and was quite interested in his point of view.

I myself appreciate Danny very much on this site, the only thing I get mad at is he won't tell us what tortoise college he went to. Yvonne and Maggie are very much appreciated too.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Those of us "nonguru's" are not hurt because we're not guru's. We're insulted because we have been saying for years there's 4 ways to prevent pyramiding. Many people on list serves and other forums paid attention to us, but not TFO. Our word, our advice has been ignored on TFO, then a couple of newbies come on talking about humidity and writing up care sheets and all the sudden our 4 ways to prevent pyramiding is pushed to the way side and you are acting like humidity is something that's just been discovered. Eureka! We don't want to be popular, we are quiet people who don't want fame, we just want our 4 ways to be acknowledged, or maybe we don't want anything, we just don't want ya'll acting like humidity to prevent pyramiding is a new thing. It's not. We've been blabbing about it for years and raising smooth Sulcata and CDT's. But you all are acting like you've just discovered gold in them thar hills. Humidity to prevent pyramiding is an old thing, we have been advocating it for years, it's not something new. It takes 4 things to prevent pyramiding...a good and varied diet, lots of exercise, good UVB and lots of humidity...miss out on one of those things and you have a pyramided animal. Simple, yet complicated

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, I have to somewhat disagree with this stand, Maggie. I have been saying a tortoise needs a good diet, lots of exercise, UVB and the correct temperatures to be healthy. But I didn't know about the humidity aspect of the equation until recently (Tom). And that's when I added Humidity to the mix.

I kept a couple tortoises that I hatched out of eggs and they are pineapples. If I had only known about the humidity 4 years ago, they would probably be smooth. They had a good diet, lots of UVB, exercise and the correct temps, but no humidity.

I'm not into turtles and tortoises for the recognition. So I don't care if my name is included on any list. And it doesn't bother me in the least not to be lumped together with tortoise experts, because I don't feel that I am an expert. I just share my experience. I would appreciate it if you all would just leave my name out of it...thanks!

 

[Madkins007]

Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.

As I was reading this, I remembered something you had said some time ago, about living in Southern Calif and it being very dry. In hindsight, I suspect it may have been a bigger factor than either of us had thought.

Here in Omaha, it is kind of dry, but it is even more so cold and dark in the winter. Warmth and good light with UVB may be my biggest battles, followed by my mediocre access to good food in the winter. Good hydration is a problem as well.

Maybe this is part of that piece that has been driving us all crazy- the 'big thing' for you may not be the 'big thing' for me?



Of course, part of the theory is 'aiming for a balance'. In the wild, hot dry weather means meager, fibrous foods and limited access to water, which means slow growth patterns, aestivation, reduced daily activities, etc.

I know you said that small meals/slow growth was not a factor in your experience, but I wonder if maybe it is not so much the size of the meals as it is the nutrient make-up?

Even Red-foots in most of their range experience periods of hot (or cold) and dry weather, and it makes a HUGE difference in what foods are available and their eating patterns.

 

[CGKeith]

Candy, thanks for the info on the whales.

I know it was OT, but very interesting how captive conditions contribute.

 

[terryo]

Tom Wrote:
Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.

I totally agreeTom, but a new Tortoise keeper wouldn't know any of this. Three years ago when I first went to Terry K. asking for advice, he stressed the importance of good nutrition to me, along with humidity. He gave me a list of foods to feed Pio, with the highest in calcium coming first on the list. He also told me not to supplement with vitamins or calcium until he was 6 months old and to let him get his nutrition from his food. He told me to do everything in balance, but stressed that humidity was very important. Then Andy H. told me to add the UVB light, and told me that humidity was important, but didn't stress it as much as Terry K. Confusing isn't the word. So when trying to help a new keeper, you guys have to stress the importance of balance, and just not assume that we know what it's all about.

 

[ChiKat]

Did someone mention Killer Whales? Oh yeah CGKeith did and here's your answer.

hahaha I was waiting for you Candy!!! I LOVE it!
Btw my mom and sister went to California last week and went to Seaworld (womp womp) and my mom called me and was like "their dorsal fins seem fine!" haha at least I know she listens to me vent

Carry on friends...

eta: And I agree that it is important to stress the balance of all aspects of tortoise care. Not just the humidity. (there, trying to stay on topic )

 

[Madkins007]

(snip) So when trying to help a new keeper, you guys have to stress the importance of balance, and just not assume that we know what it's all about.

LOL! And isn't that sort of the big Catch 22? A forum is not really a good place to learn a subject from scratch- whether it is tortoise care or knitting. You can learn the key issues better in other places- dedicated sites, YouTube, etc.

Forums are best suited to handling more specific issues, philosophies, sharing data and opinions, etc.

That is one reason I am happy to see the Articles section, and really hope it keeps growing.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I read and reread alot of the threads on this forum. Most know I breed aldabras and have hatched many. We allow our hatchlings to graze on natural grasses and weeds with no commercial foods or supplements and keep them outside in the pure Florida sunshine. All of our hatchlings have smooth growth from day one and continue to maintain that smooth consistant growth until they leave our environment. I have holdbacks from one to several years old and they have all always grown very smooth and healthy. I know of two ten year olds we hatched out in 2001 that are kept by a local couple in the same conditions and environment that we have and are very smooth and healthy. I have also seen many go the other direction and end up very pyramided because of a complete different enviroment and feeding conditions. Not being a scientist, I contribute ours growing so smooth as a total combination of the right food, humidity, hydration, environment, and natural sunshine.
I was one that also felt pyramiding was caused by high protein and lack of sunshine, however here in Florida humidity is naturally high and I never really gave it much consideration. I now think it is an influencing factor in the lack of pyramiding and promoting healthy natural growth in our species of tortoises, the aldabra. I am not willing to conduct an experiment on our hatchlings to determine if it is the lack of pure sunshine/diet or humidity/diet that will cause pyramiding. I think Tom's original thread and experiment has alot of merit and should inspire anyone that humidity is a factor in pryamiding and overall health, at least to some significant degree. Just an opinion/observation from a long time one species breeder.

 

[Tom]

This has been a very good and very thought provoking thread. Learning proper husbandry can be very confusing especially given the different species and different environments that we all keep tortoises in. What is so obvious to me, here in the desert, is not so obvious to someone else in a different environment. What is so obvious to them in their environment is not so easy for me to grasp. I really enjoy, and learn a tremendous amount, from these discussions involving other species, kept other ways and in other parts of the country. All of it gives us pieces to the puzzle and we are gradually getting closer to solving it.

On that note, I had a great conversation with another forum member tonight about the desiccating effects of heat lamps and hot spots. He speculates, and I agree, that the hotter the spot and the drier the area, the more humidity/moisture/hydration you need to BALANCE this out. This goes even further to explain why such a tremendous excess of H/M/H works so well for me with my species in my area. Its is VERY dry here AND I use very hot basking spots. It should, in theory, take an inordinate amount of wetness (swampiness, if you will) to overcome that and grow a smooth tortoise. Well guess what. That IS exactly what it takes for me to grow one smooth. This coming spring's hatchling experiments will include a giant incubation chamber type set up and an ambient (warm) temp set up with only a humid hide box and relatively dry set-up, a la The Fife's and Bill Z.

I will either figure this out or die of old age trying!