S
stells
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Whats this... a slag off most people... and big a few up thread... geez...
Pyramiding Debate Twixt EJ and AH
- Thread starter Balboa
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Always good to have a debate without the principles involved in it. 
It's fine to give your take on what was said, tried or done, as it pertains to what your take on it is. Not good though to use what they said to debate this again without them being here.
No I have never given in 1 post or thread what goes into getting or not getting a pyramided tortoise.
No I don't think that the scute material is what pyramids, not sure where that came from.
Here is what I think in a nutshell and it was said very well by kbaker in the pyramiding as an enviromental response thread.
Growing a smooth tortoise is a balancing act. You must balance everything as almost everything affects how a tortoise grows. You must get the balance of vitamins and minerals to produce strong bones, get enough calories into the tortoise to use the vitamins and minerals, prevent dehydration of your tortoise, cut down or eliminate stress.
Every species is different in how much variation, of what they need to grow smooth, they can tolerate and still grow smooth. Some can take a big variation and others can't.
So like I said you can't focus on one thing that will magicly grow a smooth tortoise. Everything has to be taken as a whole and dealt with as a whole. Everything is important in it's own little or big way.
I'll try not to be so "cryptic" in the future
Danny
It's fine to give your take on what was said, tried or done, as it pertains to what your take on it is. Not good though to use what they said to debate this again without them being here.
No I have never given in 1 post or thread what goes into getting or not getting a pyramided tortoise.
No I don't think that the scute material is what pyramids, not sure where that came from.
Here is what I think in a nutshell
and it was said very well by kbaker in the pyramiding as an enviromental response thread. Growing a smooth tortoise is a balancing act. You must balance everything as almost everything affects how a tortoise grows. You must get the balance of vitamins and minerals to produce strong bones, get enough calories into the tortoise to use the vitamins and minerals, prevent dehydration of your tortoise, cut down or eliminate stress.
Every species is different in how much variation, of what they need to grow smooth, they can tolerate and still grow smooth. Some can take a big variation and others can't.
So like I said you can't focus on one thing that will magicly grow a smooth tortoise. Everything has to be taken as a whole and dealt with as a whole. Everything is important in it's own little or big way.
I'll try not to be so "cryptic" in the future
Danny
lol this seems too be the statement evryone is in agreement on.its a blanket statement that covers all opinions,which doesn't make it wrong but could and should provide the basis for the arguing too stop and the minds coming together too pool their efforts and come too some solid conclusions,and put it too bed already.egyptiandan said:Always good to have a debate without the principles involved in it.
It's fine to give your take on what was said, tried or done, as it pertains to what your take on it is. Not good though to use what they said to debate this again without them being here.
No I have never given in 1 post or thread what goes into getting or not getting a pyramided tortoise.
No I don't think that the scute material is what pyramids, not sure where that came from.
Here is what I think in a nutshell
Growing a smooth tortoise is a balancing act. You must balance everything as almost everything affects how a tortoise grows. You must get the balance of vitamins and minerals to produce strong bones, get enough calories into the tortoise to use the vitamins and minerals, prevent dehydration of your tortoise, cut down or eliminate stress.
Every species is different in how much variation, of what they need to grow smooth, they can tolerate and still grow smooth. Some can take a big variation and others can't.
So like I said you can't focus on one thing that will magicly grow a smooth tortoise. Everything has to be taken as a whole and dealt with as a whole. Everything is important in it's own little or big way.
I'll try not to be so "cryptic" in the future
Danny
Without reading any of this thread -
( per Danny ) It stands to reason that the basic care parameters must be met... I certainly hope that is understood. With that in mind...
Retain high humidity directly on the carapace and your tortoise will grow smooth.
Retain no humidity directly on the carapace and your tortoise will grow not smooth. Nothing "magic" about that.
I have experienced both situations personally since late '90's.. involving 100's of hatchlings since '04.
This simple and easy care can be maintained anywhere on the planet.
Terry K
( per Danny ) It stands to reason that the basic care parameters must be met... I certainly hope that is understood. With that in mind...
Retain high humidity directly on the carapace and your tortoise will grow smooth.
Retain no humidity directly on the carapace and your tortoise will grow not smooth. Nothing "magic" about that.
I have experienced both situations personally since late '90's.. involving 100's of hatchlings since '04.
This simple and easy care can be maintained anywhere on the planet.
Terry K
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stells
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Which species of tortoise are you talking? Redfoots i'm guessing...
Not my pointless... easy to grow... greeks... that fair better than other tortoises... apparently
Not my pointless... easy to grow... greeks... that fair better than other tortoises... apparently
Redfoot NERD said:
onarock said:
The typed word takes away so much of a person's intent.
I'm not knocking a them, at all, I'm just genuinely asking what and how they have contributed to tortoise keepers around the world. They may both be the two smartest tortoise keepers that ever lived, but if they aren't sharing it somehow, how can I classify them as "guru's"? So I'm just asking what they have contributed and how. So much happens out in the reptile world that I'm totally ignorant of because I'm not really an "insider". I'm just asking you to correct my ignorance.
I don't know if you meant your second sentence in jest, but if not, I'm a little bummed by your low opinion of me.
Redfoot NERD said:
This is very well worded and I agree whole heartedly. All the factors that are usually brought up do play a part, but if its too dry, none of those other factors will matter. I've pyramided sulcatas, redfoots, leopards, greeks, russians, CDTs and TTs over all the years. All the other factors that have been mentioned and discussed were all met, but I raised them all too dry. They all had a good diet, proper supplementation, spacious enclosures with proper hiding spots and good temps, lots of sunshine and exercise in large outdoor pens.
By contrast, I've seen many examples all over the globe, where these other factors were clearly NOT met and yet the shell was smooth and gorgeous because of humidity, moisture and hydration.
What I'm saying is that this general concept of "balance" doesn't seem to matter at all if its too dry, but if its nice and wet, your "balance" can be off by a lot and you still get smooth growth. This has been my experience universally with rare exception.
Tom! We're friends, so you may have been taking my words a little light-hearted! But, I AM NOT KIDDING! When I say you are the guru...YOU ARE THE GURU! I agree with most of what's been said about everyone here! I don't need to repeat what's been said about Ed and Andy! Danny is a textbook genius here...he gives you enough to sate your interest then leaves you to figure the rest out on your own...that's great and I respect that! Richard Fife pretty much keeps to himself (unless he's selling or doing a TTPG thing)...and that's fine! He's made everything available in print! And remember, he's been retired from zoo life longer than most of us have been keeping tortoises (or in some cases, longer than some here have been alive). But I digress! Tom is the most accessible source of information on the Forum and he doesn't rest on his laurels! He knows damn well that what he's traversed is the correct path. He has taken what Richard Fife has pioneered to the next level (and the level after that). And he's not done yet! I've seen what he's accomplished firsthand and frankly, he makes me feel like a novice (and I'm not!). Anyone here who has met him, PM'd him, phoned him or emailed him, will atest that they've received a comprehensive, intelligent, logical and timely answer to their query. And I'd also be willing to bet that Tom's total PM intake matches his total posts! The fact is that the present and future of tortoise-keeping is going to be based heavily on Tom's findings. Debate this if you will, but you can't deny a guru!
stells said:
No Kelly.. leopards and sulcatas also - although in smaller numbers.
If your getting pyramiding and it's to dry, than it's out of balance, plain and simple.
Tom where have you seen a tortoise that was not given the right amount of vitamins and minerals, but was kept humid? I do remember you giving examples, but they all had diets that worked. Not that I recommend dry dog kibble to feed your sulcata, it does obviously have everything in it to have a tortoise grow well. Don't think the animal protein would do it's liver any good, but the food supplies all it needs to grow good bone.
Don't see where you can say Tom, that a tortoise on a diet that doesn't supply enough vitamins and minerals, but kept humid, will grow well.
So we should all be saying that you can feed your tortoise whatever you want, but keep it humid, and it will grow well.
I'm afraid I don't agree.
Danny
Tom where have you seen a tortoise that was not given the right amount of vitamins and minerals, but was kept humid? I do remember you giving examples, but they all had diets that worked. Not that I recommend dry dog kibble to feed your sulcata, it does obviously have everything in it to have a tortoise grow well. Don't think the animal protein would do it's liver any good, but the food supplies all it needs to grow good bone.
Don't see where you can say Tom, that a tortoise on a diet that doesn't supply enough vitamins and minerals, but kept humid, will grow well.
So we should all be saying that you can feed your tortoise whatever you want, but keep it humid, and it will grow well.
I'm afraid I don't agree.
Danny
egyptiandan said:Always good to have a debate without the principles involved in it.
It's fine to give your take on what was said, tried or done, as it pertains to what your take on it is. Not good though to use what they said to debate this again without them being here.
SNIP
LOL of all the things to beg to differ with you on Danny.
The presented debate is now part of the public record as a document. I found that Document interesting and wished to share it with others to read. I think a discussion of that material is quite appropriate.
(I suppose that's a little warning to all of us. These forums are not private conversation, they are public "speak", open to all and transcribed for eternity (or at least as long as the board exists) so that might be a good thing to remember as we speak)
stells said:
Seriously Kelly,
I know you're a knowledgeable person. I've seen you make constructive posts before. What happened? Please ditch a little of this bitterness, life is too short for so much animosity.
Well, Maggie and I have been saying right along...humidity, correct temperatures, diet and exercise grow a smooth, healthy tortoise.
S
stells
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stells said:
Seriously Kelly,
I know you're a knowledgeable person. I've seen you make constructive posts before. What happened? Please ditch a little of this bitterness, life is too short for so much animosity.
[/quote]
Seriously Balboa... don't tell me how to post...
Ok a mere little Thb this time... Frisbee as he is known to me... one of the one's i took on... one of the one's.. as to why this pinpoining on one thing... bugs the hell out of me...
He had... HUMIDITY... that's one thing he did have... he didn't have suppliments... he didn't have good food... he didn't have much of anything else to be honest... and he's not quite right is he...
I have had him 2 years now... and he now acts like a normal tortoise... he came to me unable to walk on his back end... and was one i thought i would lose...
Tom, if you think I have a low opinion of you, then I apologize. I'ts just the opposite. I do, however, think some of your posts on pyramiding and humidity are a bit overzealous. I do believe humidity plays a part, but as Danny stated I feel its just a part of many things. (Danny, I like the balancing act comparison). There have been soo many interesting points made both here at TFO and on the thread we are referancing. How do we know that the "swamp" like conditions being put forth in regards to smooth shells is'nt just overcompinsating for something thats lacking or too much of something else? How do we know that keeping them in pens that arent well planted, or planted at all, makes their shell grow pyramid as a result of stress or defence aginst possible predators. How do we know that when bringing them indoors, as many do, that inadequate lighting makes their shell grow to the light as indoor plants do trying to get closer to those valuable "rays". How do we know that pyramid shell is not an adaptation to metabolic needs that arent being met. I have been growing hydroponically indoors for over 20 years and I've seen plants take on some crazy characteristics because needs werent met. I'm not saying tortoises are like plants, but its something to think about. Tom, I love your enthusiasm, in fact, I feed on it and I dont think I'm alone in this. Please dont think I have a low opinion of you. Your a smart, well intentioned individual and I wish more people took tortoise husbandry as serious as you. Paul
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stells
Guest
Don't hug me either... i don't do hugs...
M
Maggie Cummings
Guest
Yvonne and I have been saying for years that it takes 4 things to grow a smooth tortoise, good diet, lots of exercise, strong UVB and lots (80%) of humidity. But nobody listens to us. Nobody calls us guru's or points out our advice as great. So I really do think what is happening here is a popularity contest. It's who does the group like better? Certainly not 2 grumpy old ladies or a woman from the UK. We were saying those things before we ever discovered TFO. We have spread that word over several list serves and other forums where we WERE somebodies. But we come to TFO and we are ignored for the most part in the discussion of pyramiding. So I personally do think this is a personality contest and if you're not young and good lookin and pushing your own care sheets you are basically ignored. I don't mean to ***** and I don't mean to hurt anybodies feelings, I am just speaking the truth as I feel it. Maybe Yvonne is a friend of Richard Fife and can brag about that but I am not. I am not in the inner circle of tortoise breeding and conversation. I am just a small irritable old lady who quietly cares for sick and young and disabled tortoises. I don't know much about breeding or the breeding world, but I do know how to raise smooth, social, healthy tortoises without bragging about it. The only thing I can brag about is that I am not liked by AH...and I am proud of it.
egyptiandan said:Don't see where you can say Tom, that a tortoise on a diet that doesn't supply enough vitamins and minerals, but kept humid, will grow well.
So we should all be saying that you can feed your tortoise whatever you want, but keep it humid, and it will grow well.
I'm afraid I don't agree.
Danny
I am not, and would not ever advocate a poor diet, but I can't deny what I've seen. I've seen several sulcatas that were either neglected or fed the wrong stuff and yet had beautiful smooth shells. They all had access to sunshine and very high humidity. Some of them only ate whatever weeds and grass sprouted up in their area, while others were fed the aforementioned poor diet.
I have to concede that you are right about the balance of several elements. Without UV no tortoise will be healthy no matter how everything else is balanced. Likewise, I can tell you all from experience that without adequate humidity (very hard to provide in my neck of the woods) they will pyramid, no matter how everything else is balanced. Those of you that dispute this do not live in an area as devoid of ambient humidity as mine. How much humidity is adequate is dependent upon many factors, ambient being just one of them. This is what accounts for a lot of this disagreement. Obviously different species also have very different requirements, and this fact accounts for a big chunk of the rest of the disagreement.
onarock said:
Thanks for the note and the compliments. I thought that was where you were coming from, just can't always tell with the typed word.
I've been challenged with the above question many times in many forms. Each time I've asked the questioner to help me figure out what is missing from my husbandry that I would need to "over-compensate" for. They gets lots of sun in large outdoor pens. MVBs over the winter, even though they still get frequent sun. Adequate shelter and hides both indoors and out. A good, varied diet made up of lots of non-grocery store items. I've tried the diet in varying quantities over the years and experienced slower growth, but no difference as far as pyramiding is concerned. Regular calcium and vitamin supplementation. Proper temps and thermogradients.
No matter how or what I did in the past they ALWAYS pyramided. Now, with the swamp routine, they all grow smooth. Nothing else is any different. I had dozens of failures in the past 20 years with the dry, desert routine, and now, as of May 2010, I have had 100% success with 42 individuals of three different species.
Yes, all of the other factors must be present (good diet, supplements, UV), but wet or dry has to be acknowledged as the biggest deciding factor.
My question for Tom, NERD, and the other 'humidity/moisture/misting is the key' people (and I already know that you all agree that basic cares and diet are important as well) is the issue of bone density.
Andy H., whatever other opinions you may have of him or his other statements, does make an interesting point with his claim that pyramiding and poor bone density go hand in hand. He has some decent evidence with things like autopsies and X-rays of live animals.
Do you think the high humidity method addresses bone density or bone health? Or, is this not an issue?
Andy H., whatever other opinions you may have of him or his other statements, does make an interesting point with his claim that pyramiding and poor bone density go hand in hand. He has some decent evidence with things like autopsies and X-rays of live animals.
Do you think the high humidity method addresses bone density or bone health? Or, is this not an issue?
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