Pyramiding

[timus]

Try as I might to have super smooth shell growth the guys are pyramiding a bit. I have to assume it’s from to quick growth. Conditions in the enclosure have been ideal. It’s an 8 foot box with the hot end at 100-104 with humidity at 45-50%, degrees he middle is at 83-85 with humidity at 65% give or take but only 2% more or less, cool end sits at 77-80 with humidity at 80%. The only other issue I have had so far were a couple of them have some spots from moisture on them heir plastrons and since then I’ve poured water in the corners until the he humidity goes to where I want it. I’m hey have been soaked every day except for 3 days since I’ve had them which has been around 5 months now I guess lol. Anyone got a guess other than to quick growth? The sides are smooth as can be but the top is clearly pyramiding.

 

[timus]

I have a video but I can’t upload those huh?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

The consensus is that pyramiding is 100% caused from lack of correct humidity and nothing else.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I have a video but I can’t upload those huh?

Most video files are too large.
You can always post it to YOUTUBE. Then link it here.

 

[MarginatedMooney]

Hi there, based off of what I've seen the more experienced members say on this forum, pyramiding is caused by growth in the absence of humidity, not by growing too fast.
100-104 sounds a bit too hot to me, so that could be drying out the tort's carapace. Maybe try to get your temps on the hot end down to 95-100. Also, what kind of heat bulb are you using?
That humidity doesn't sound too bad but I would try to get it up to 60%+ on the hot end.

 

[timus]

The heat bulb is a 60 way incandescent flood but I have a 50 and a 45 I can switch too. The hot end humidity is measured by a probe sitting directly under the bulb that is also sitting on a piece of slate. Once they step off the plate the humidity hops up into the 50’s. I’m using orchid bark at 6 inches deep and the bottom 4 1/2-5 inches is wet. And not much further down it’s sopping wet? I stopped spraying because I was told to keep the top dry with the bottom wet. Should I spray?

 

[Tom]

View attachment 337467Try as I might to have super smooth shell growth the guys are pyramiding a bit. I have to assume it’s from to quick growth. Conditions in the enclosure have been ideal. It’s an 8 foot box with the hot end at 100-104 with humidity at 45-50%, degrees he middle is at 83-85 with humidity at 65% give or take but only 2% more or less, cool end sits at 77-80 with humidity at 80%. The only other issue I have had so far were a couple of them have some spots from moisture on them heir plastrons and since then I’ve poured water in the corners until the he humidity goes to where I want it. I’m hey have been soaked every day except for 3 days since I’ve had them which has been around 5 months now I guess lol. Anyone got a guess other than to quick growth? The sides are smooth as can be but the top is clearly pyramiding. View attachment 337467

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can be low humidity, or it can also be a bulb that is overly desiccating due to the type or the mounting distance.

Here are some possible contributing factors to consider:

1. You didn't say what type of enclosure you are using, but if its an open top table, there is no way to maintain good heat and humidity in something like that. The humidity numbers that you listed are too low for a hatchling in my experience. Get the whole enclosure up to 70% to prevent pyramiding, and higher to stop pyramiding in progress.
2. You didn't say what type of bulb you are using, but halogens, any type of spot bulb, and MVBs are all overly desiccating and will contribute to carapace desiccation and pyramiding. I only use flood bulbs and round bulbs anymore.
3. 100-104 is just a little bit too hot, and may be a contributing factor to that little bit of pyramiding you are seeing. 95-100 is a better range and sufficient to do the job we are trying to do.
4. Another problem with open topped enclosures is that your ambient temperature will be whatever room temp is. Most homes are kept relatively cool. Mid 70s in summer and mid 60s in winter. These temps are too cool for a tortoise to function properly, so they bask under their heat lamps. A lot. The more they bask under our artificial lights, the more carapace desiccation they suffer. You can usually reduce basking frequency and duration by having warmer ambient temps.

Food for thought.

 

[timus]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can be low humidity, or it can also be a bulb that is overly desiccating due to the type or the mounting distance.

Here are some possible contributing factors to consider:

1. You didn't say what type of enclosure you are using, but if its an open top table, there is no way to maintain good heat and humidity in something like that. The humidity numbers that you listed are too low for a hatchling in my experience. Get the whole enclosure up to 70% to prevent pyramiding, and higher to stop pyramiding in progress.
2. You didn't say what type of bulb you are using, but halogens, any type of spot bulb, and MVBs are all overly desiccating and will contribute to carapace desiccation and pyramiding. I only use flood bulbs and round bulbs anymore.
3. 100-104 is just a little bit too hot, and may be a contributing factor to that little bit of pyramiding you are seeing. 95-100 is a better range and sufficient to do the job we are trying to do.
4. Another problem with open topped enclosures is that your ambient temperature will be whatever room temp is. Most homes are kept relatively cool. Mid 70s in summer and mid 60s in winter. These temps are too cool for a tortoise to function properly, so they bask under their heat lamps. A lot. The more they bask under our artificial lights, the more carapace desiccation they suffer. You can usually reduce basking frequency and duration by having warmer ambient temps.

Food for thought.

It’s an 8 foot sealed chamber and the bulb is a regular 60 watt incandescent. I have a 45 and a 50 watt incandescent too so I will switch to the lower wattage to get the temp down a bit. Hopefully that stops it. I thought that I read somewhere that too fast growth from to much eating could contribute but if that’s not the case it has to be the bulb. I’d have to measure but if they are sitting right under it I’d say it’s about 15 inches to the top of their shell. The 104 i mentioned was the high in summer. Most days now it only goes over 100 at the hot spot if the house happens to heat up to around 73 which has t been happening much. @Tom do you recommend no spraying but just keep that bottom wet?

 

[timus]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can be low humidity, or it can also be a bulb that is overly desiccating due to the type or the mounting distance.

Here are some possible contributing factors to consider:

1. You didn't say what type of enclosure you are using, but if its an open top table, there is no way to maintain good heat and humidity in something like that. The humidity numbers that you listed are too low for a hatchling in my experience. Get the whole enclosure up to 70% to prevent pyramiding, and higher to stop pyramiding in progress.
2. You didn't say what type of bulb you are using, but halogens, any type of spot bulb, and MVBs are all overly desiccating and will contribute to carapace desiccation and pyramiding. I only use flood bulbs and round bulbs anymore.
3. 100-104 is just a little bit too hot, and may be a contributing factor to that little bit of pyramiding you are seeing. 95-100 is a better range and sufficient to do the job we are trying to do.
4. Another problem with open topped enclosures is that your ambient temperature will be whatever room temp is. Most homes are kept relatively cool. Mid 70s in summer and mid 60s in winter. These temps are too cool for a tortoise to function properly, so they bask under their heat lamps. A lot. The more they bask under our artificial lights, the more carapace desiccation they suffer. You can usually reduce basking frequency and duration by having warmer ambient temps.

Food for thought.

I don’t see them basking all that often.

 

[Tom]

It’s an 8 foot sealed chamber and the bulb is a regular 60 watt incandescent. I have a 45 and a 50 watt incandescent too so I will switch to the lower wattage to get the temp down a bit. Hopefully that stops it. I thought that I read somewhere that too fast growth from to much eating could contribute but if that’s not the case it has to be the bulb. I’d have to measure but if they are sitting right under it I’d say it’s about 15 inches to the top of their shell. The 104 i mentioned was the high in summer. Most days now it only goes over 100 at the hot spot if the house happens to heat up to around 73 which has t been happening much. @Tom do you recommend no spraying but just keep that bottom wet?

I don't see how humidity could be 45-50% or 65 percent in the middle with 6 inches of orchid bark that is wet. I get 80% humid in a closed chamber with dry Sani-chips and a water bowl for one of my snakes. Any of my closed cambers with damp orchid bark seldom drops below 85% anywhere in the enclosure. This leads me to guess that your sealed chamber may have just a little too much ventilation.

It doesn't sound like your bulb is a problem, and your temps seems pretty good for the species too.

We've seen lots of tortoise that grew very fast with absolutely no pyramiding. I've seen lots of torts that grew slowly with heavy pyramiding. I don't think growth rate has anything to do with it. Nothing I've seen would suggest that.

The next question would be: How was the baby started? Did the breeder keep it dry? Or outside all day?

 

[timus]

I don't see how humidity could be 45-50% or 65 percent in the middle with 6 inches of orchid bark that is wet. I get 80% humid in a closed chamber with dry Sani-chips and a water bowl for one of my snakes. Any of my closed cambers with damp orchid bark seldom drops below 85% anywhere in the enclosure. This leads me to guess that your sealed chamber may have just a little too much ventilation.

It doesn't sound like your bulb is a problem, and your temps seems pretty good for the species too.

We've seen lots of tortoise that grew very fast with absolutely no pyramiding. I've seen lots of torts that grew slowly with heavy pyramiding. I don't think growth rate has anything to do with it. Nothing I've seen would suggest that.

The next question would be: How was the baby started? Did the breeder keep it dry? Or outside all day?

I wondered if maybe I should put hvac tape over some of the vents in the back. Damn. That is gonna be hard to do with it being an 8 footer with 5 inches of very wet orchid bark. I will try in the morning though lol. Yeah I really thought my lighting was good. I didn’t mind in summer when it went up to 104 as I knew winter would be a good bit less and it has. I’ll try and get a bit of those holes covered up.

 

[jeff kushner]

Timus....God's Country, the Shore....where are you over there? Did you go to the Centerville Christmas parade last week?

My sweetheart lives outside Chestertown so we roam the Shore quite a bit.

jeff

 

[timus]

Timus....God's Country, the Shore....where are you over there? Did you go to the Centerville Christmas parade last week?

My sweetheart lives outside Chestertown so we roam the Shore quite a bit.

jeff

I grew up in Queen Anne county but live closer to Salisbury now. All my family is back in QA county though. I didn’t go to the parade because I had to work but went last year and the the years before that. Where I grew up in Queen Anne, grasonville, I live on a massive 300 acre lot that day next to horse head wetland preserve. That is where my love of shelled creatures was born and nurtured.

 

[timus]

Tom nailed it. My chamber had to much ventilation. I put the hvac tape over majority of the vents in the back and did a light sprinkle with my watering can and the hot end is now sitting at 70% and everywhere else is 99%? So I may need to remove some of the tape but I feel like I’m back on track and really really hope to stop the pyramiding. Hopefully it will not be too bad having caught it now. I will likely feel bad for eternity though as I hoped to have them grow into super smooth adults?

 

[timus]

I don't see how humidity could be 45-50% or 65 percent in the middle with 6 inches of orchid bark that is wet. I get 80% humid in a closed chamber with dry Sani-chips and a water bowl for one of my snakes. Any of my closed cambers with damp orchid bark seldom drops below 85% anywhere in the enclosure. This leads me to guess that your sealed chamber may have just a little too much ventilation.

It doesn't sound like your bulb is a problem, and your temps seems pretty good for the species too.

We've seen lots of tortoise that grew very fast with absolutely no pyramiding. I've seen lots of torts that grew slowly with heavy pyramiding. I don't think growth rate has anything to do with it. Nothing I've seen would suggest that.

The next question would be: How was the baby started? Did the breeder keep it dry? Or outside all day?

The ventilation was what it was @Tom. Humidity is super high now. 70% on the hot end and 99% everywhere else. I put hvac tape on majority of the vents this morning and did a light watering. Should I remove some of the tape now to try and get the humidity back down a bit or just let it sit and dry over a few days?

 

[Tom]

The ventilation was what it was @Tom. Humidity is super high now. 70% on the hot end and 99% everywhere else. I put hvac tape on majority of the vents this morning and did a light watering. Should I remove some of the tape now to try and get the humidity back down a bit or just let it sit and dry over a few days?

This is debatable. I think it was a little too dry before, but maybe a little too humid for this species now. On the other hand, you are trying to stop mild pyramiding in progress, so having humidity a little higher than normal is better. The answer is likely somewhere in the middle, but you'll have to go by feel and do what your comfortable with. Daily soaks, and carapace spraying will help too.

 

[timus]

This is debatable. I think it was a little too dry before, but maybe a little too humid for this species now. On the other hand, you are trying to stop mild pyramiding in progress, so having humidity a little higher than normal is better. The answer is likely somewhere in the middle, but you'll have to go by feel and do what your comfortable with. Daily soaks, and carapace spraying will help too.

The girls and me ran out to run a couple errands and the middle had fell to 93% and the cool end 97%. And the box has not warmed all the way up yet. I’m gonna let it be for now as long as the humidity tapers off a bit more throughout the day and then go from there. But it’s a relief that I believe we have found the the reason. I wondered why there was never a drop of condensation with damn much water in the box lol. If it stays that high again tomorrow I’ll pull a couple pieces of the tape then watch some more. I appreciate your help Tom.

 

[jeff kushner]

I grew up in Queen Anne county but live closer to Salisbury now. All my family is back in QA county though. I didn’t go to the parade because I had to work but went last year and the the years before that. Where I grew up in Queen Anne, grasonville, I live on a massive 300 acre lot that day next to horse head wetland preserve. That is where my love of shelled creatures was born and nurtured.

I don't feel guilty side-barring AFTER you've addressed your little guys issue.....

It's very different, much more relaxed on that side of the bridge. You know you're in the country when the parade not only includes a decked-out-for-Christmas Propane truck but the local Septic truck too! I know some guys are laughing reading that but we were at a friends party/open house right on the parade route and there are few things more pure than that.

For a lot of folks, they wouldn't like it but for a nature lover....yeah, it fits pretty well. We found Kerry a nook house(Fairy tale stuff) off of the Chester river after she sold her Church Hill house. I'll sell mine in a couple years and move over there when I stop working.

Glad Tom got you squared......HVAC...it's not for people anymore! LOL

jeff

 

[timus]

I don't feel guilty side-barring AFTER you've addressed your little guys issue.....

It's very different, much more relaxed on that side of the bridge. You know you're in the country when the parade not only includes a decked-out-for-Christmas Propane truck but the local Septic truck too! I know some guys are laughing reading that but we were at a friends party/open house right on the parade route and there are few things more pure than that.

For a lot of folks, they wouldn't like it but for a nature lover....yeah, it fits pretty well. We found Kerry a nook house(Fairy tale stuff) off of the Chester river after she sold her Church Hill house. I'll sell mine in a couple years and move over there when I stop working.

Glad Tom got you squared......HVAC...it's not for people anymore! LOL

jeff

I have lived on the shore my whole life and couldn’t fathom living anywhere else. I’ve travelled my fair share but nothing beats QA county for me. Something about smelling the bay in the air that just does it for me!!! Hvac tape is the new duct tape! I mean who takes drab grey over shiny silver?

 

[Bridgebob]

View attachment 337467Try as I might to have super smooth shell growth the guys are pyramiding a bit. I have to assume it’s from to quick growth. Conditions in the enclosure have been ideal. It’s an 8 foot box with the hot end at 100-104 with humidity at 45-50%, degrees he middle is at 83-85 with humidity at 65% give or take but only 2% more or less, cool end sits at 77-80 with humidity at 80%. The only other issue I have had so far were a couple of them have some spots from moisture on them heir plastrons and since then I’ve poured water in the corners until the he humidity goes to where I want it. I’m hey have been soaked every day except for 3 days since I’ve had them which has been around 5 months now I guess lol. Anyone got a guess other than to quick growth? The sides are smooth as can be but the top is clearly pyramiding. View attachment 337467

My Eastern Box really grew quick without puramids. My secret is to prepare her meals with a little reptivite. I freeze most of it. Eggs (with the shell), shrimp, fruit, crab. She doesn't really like greens too much. Do not depend on diet alone. They need UV light.