quick gut transit?

[J.P.]

hello. i have a question for experienced leopard tort keepers, how long does it take for food to pass from one end to the other?
i've always thought that it took a couple of days or maybe even a week, but i had a shocking surprise this morning.

to give a little background: yesterday, as i was planting more weed/grass seeds, i accidentally spilled some seed mix, and it was a hassle picking it up one by one, so i just left it there to germinate on its own..well, the spilled seeds did not go unnoticed and i saw my curious leopards smelling and pecking on them. having read before that small seeds can be part of a natural diet, i was not too concerned about the incident.

this morning, i saw the same seeds come out. i was really surprised to learn that my tortoises are passing food that was eaten less than 24 hours ago. this sent alarm bells ringing in my brain, since a speedy gut transit means intestinal issues. to verify if it was faster than normal, i spent half this day trying to find information on exactly how long the process takes, but i found no definitive answer. just something to the effect that it takes days without stating a specific number.

their droppings appear to be normal. well formed, not watery, not smelly...due to the concern on parasites, i broke it apart with a stick and saw no worms, just a mix of grass fibers in varying degrees of digestion, and the seeds...

could the abundant food be speeding up the gut transit? i mean, their guts can only hold so much, so if they continue munching all day then the new food must be pushing out the older(but still digestable) food. this last statement has absolutely no scientific basis, i'm just trying hard to imagine what is going on.

 

[dmmj]

It had to be seed from earlier, food takes about 2 weeks, to pass through a tortoise;s gut. Regarding seed it does not provide any nutritional benefit what so ever, a seed's only purpose is to pass through the gut undigested.

 

[J.P.]

i understand about the no nutritional value part as seeds can germinate from tortoise droppings, so that means their guts can digest the seeds.

2 weeks for a normal gut transit? oh my, it looks like i'm in trouble. i am positive that the seeds are new, since the first time they ate it was yesterday. i made sure to burry the seeds to for deep roots, and yesterday's accident was the only time seeds were left exposed. i guess it's a blessing in disguise since without the spilled seeds, i'd have no idea my torts are passing their food too fast.

i will take poop samples to a lab for a fecal check.

 

[Tom]

This depends on many factors. Species, size, temps, diet and hydration, being a few relevant factors. I've seen things take 7 weeks in 12" sulcatas. I've seen other things come out in a few days, like the first pumpkin seeds of the season in fall.

My hatchlings don't have their first poops until about two or three weeks after they start eating. Its kinda cool. No poop to deal with for at least two weeks.

I've never heard of anything traveling through in 24 hours. Does not seem likely to me. I'll be seeing my tortoise vet later today. I'll ask him for his thoughts on this.

 

[Jodie]

My leopard recently had surgery that included cleaning her insides out pretty well. She is 18lbs, and it took 9 days for her to defecate afterwards.

 

[Rick's Sullivan]

I'm curious what the Doc says about this. It's been my understanding that how quickly tortoises digest food can vary with the TYPE of food. For example, really high fiber food like good weeds and grasses can take up to 3 wks, but kitchen vegetables can go through in just a few days (worse if it's something like a watery fruit). I'm hoping that eating a lot of seeds just made things clear out too fast and that your tort will be fine. Please post again when you know more.

 

[J.P.]

Thanks guys.

Seems to be nothing physically wrong...fecal came back native for bad bugs. But the weird thing is, vet actually told me it's normal to have a daily gut transit. Him being the pro, i did not contest the issue with him up front. But i know by experience that reptiles do not process food that fast.

He suggested that we deworm my torts even it's negative for nematodes/ova. By his opinion on the gut transit, i'm really having some second thoughts following his professional advise. He claims to have experience and even owning some tortoises himself. But i'm still scared. He treated my first two leopards and they both died. I am totally not blaming him for that, but our conversation on gut transit was a revelation.

 

[J.P.]

By the way, these are 3-4 inch leopards. Being kept per Tom's closed chamber method 75% of the time and the other 25% in a grazing pen.

I looks like not all the seeds came out in one go as i still see a few today.

I don't think leopards dig up food, but it is another possibility that they somehow found and ingested some of the older seeds i planted.

 

[Jodie]

Nobody but you can decide whether or not to follow your vets advice. From what you have said, I would seek another opinion. Or not, and just keep an eye on them. Maybe start weighing them once a week to monitor that, and make sure everything is ok. Why would you treat for worms, if there are no worms? My thought would be that different foods are processed at different rates.

 

[Yvonne G]

What did your vet treat the first two leopards for and with? Leopards sometimes are allergic to Baytril. And all tortoises will die if given Ivermectin.

 

[J.P.]

First was RI treated with tetracycline, second was diarhea which was treated with flagyl.

He said animals should he dewormed even if fecal is negative since a single test may not be enough basis to declare them parasite free.

I am now looking for another herp vet thanks.

 

[Dizisdalife]

Yeah. I would be looking for a new Vet too. If the fecal exam is the first negative exam after parasites were detected and treated, then a second exam should be done, say in six months. After two consecutive negative test you should be confident that your tortoise is parasite free. Then yearly exams should be preformed. I would not randomly deworm my tortoise because parasites are suspected.

 

[J.P.]

Not being satisfied with the vet's all clear, I brought stool samples to a medical lab today. It's for humans only, but the technician agreed to look at the samples as long as i did not require a signed lab report since his liscense only covered human tests.

Long story short, he saw an amoeba and some blood cells. he's also undecided whether he saw a dead pinworm or a grass fiber, no eggs though. This ameoba is scaring me, I hope it's not serious. I'll relay the test results to a vet and ask what should be done about the amoeba. I hope some flagyl will do the trick.

 

[J.P.]

this info is from the lab this morning:
parasite: E. Histolytica trophozoite 0-1/hpf
pus cell: 1-2/hpf
rbc: 8-10/hpf

i'm bringin this info to the vet later.

i hope anybody here can provide some help, a second opinion perhaps. what has been a successful treatment for amoeba?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

You will find that if your tortoise has "worms" they will pass only eggs and they might be hard to recognize even if you are looking right at them! . With an active infestation, the adult worms live inside your pet and only pass eggs....To be eaten by another animal and start another infestation.The only worms I've ever seen passed through feces has been dead worms. I treat twice monthly with Diatomaceous earth as a preventative and I highly recommend it. I've become a poo investigator of sorts after a shelled out hundreds earlier in the year over an intestinal parasite deal that infected two of my three tortoises. Now I feed the DE and do regular microscopic evaluations on the poo.

 

[Alaskamike]

You will find that if your tortoise has "worms" they will pass only eggs and they might be hard to recognize even if you are looking right at them! . With an active infestation, the adult worms live inside your pet and only pass eggs....To be eaten by another animal and start another infestation.The only worms I've ever seen passed through feces has been dead worms. I treat twice monthly with Diatomaceous earth as a preventative and I highly recommend it. I've become a poo investigator of sorts after a shelled out hundreds earlier in the year over an intestinal parasite deal that infected two of my three tortoises. Now I feed the DE and do regular microscopic evaluations on the poo.

I've thought too about using the food grade DE. Where do you get it ?
So far a little ground up pumpkin with the seeds ground in is all I've used as a preventative measure.
Florida is bad for worms.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I've thought too about using the food grade DE. Where do you get it ?
So far a little ground up pumpkin with the seeds ground in is all I've used as a preventative measure.
Florida is bad for worms.

Home Depot online sells it cheap. But only online. The brand is SAINT something. 4.4 pound bags. I bought four bags and the shipping was free.

 

[Alaskamike]

Thanks!

 

[Yvonne G]

Tractor Supply has it in stock.

Flagyll is the de-wormer that kills the amoeba-type parasites.

 

[Tom]

Not being satisfied with the vet's all clear, I brought stool samples to a medical lab today. It's for humans only, but the technician agreed to look at the samples as long as i did not require a signed lab report since his liscense only covered human tests.

Long story short, he saw an amoeba and some blood cells. he's also undecided whether he saw a dead pinworm or a grass fiber, no eggs though. This ameoba is scaring me, I hope it's not serious. I'll relay the test results to a vet and ask what should be done about the amoeba. I hope some flagyl will do the trick.

Reptiles carry all sorts of things in their GI tracts. Their relationship to these "flora and fauna" is poorly understood. Using a human lab to ID stuff in a reptiles gut is pretty cool, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong because they found some things. I wouldn't go dosing your tortoise with meds until you get some more qualified answers from a vet that actually knows tortoises. You could be doing more harm than good, and it couldd be something that needs no "treatment" in the first place.

I didn't make it to my vet Friday, but I'm going today. He's a personal friend, so he won't mind me asking him a bunch of questions about your animals. I'll let you know what his opinion is.