Radient Heat Panel

Diane Berner

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Does anyone know where I can but a radiant heat panel suitable for installing into a large Animal Plastics cage?
 

Diane Berner

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Thanks for your replies. I saw some available in a Google search but they were designed to be mounted to a wall and were 400 watts. I thought that it was too big to use. I also have to worry about humidity destroying the panel.
 

Markw84

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Thanks for your replies. I saw some available in a Google search but they were designed to be mounted to a wall and were 400 watts. I thought that it was too big to use. I also have to worry about humidity destroying the panel.
PM me. I do keep some in stock for installing in enclosures I sell. Let me know what size you are looking for and where you are located. Also, reptilebasics.com does have a feature where you can select to be notified by email when they have them back in stock.
 

Diane Berner

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PM me. I do keep some in stock for installing in enclosures I sell. Let me know what size you are looking for and where you are located. Also, reptilebasics.com does have a feature where you can select to be notified by email when they have them back in stock.
I sent you an e-mail. I don't know how to pm on this site.
 

Markw84

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I sent you an e-mail. I don't know how to pm on this site.
Daine

I do not see an email from you in my email. If you are on a computer go to the black menu bar at the very top of the page. On the right is your avatar and user name. Right next to that is an envelop. Click on that and select "start a new conversation". in the Recipients bar on top start typing in my user name - markw84. after a few letters my avatar will pop up as a choice. choose that and then type in a title and then you message to me including your email address.

Mark
 

TeamZissou

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Are RHPs less desiccating to the enclosure than CHEs? Or, are they about the same since the mechanism of heat generation is the same?
 

Markw84

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Are RHPs less desiccating to the enclosure than CHEs? Or, are they about the same since the mechanism of heat generation is the same?
Radiant heat panel emit Far IR or IR-C. CHE's also emit Far IR, but it is close to Mid IR and a bit more intense. Basking bulbs emit Near IR which is the most intense. So on that criteria, the Radiant Heat Panel is going to produce a "gentler" heat. But its not as simple as that. IR heats by being absorbed into the object it hits. Different things have different absorption frequencies. For example place your hand on a black car hood sitting in the sun. The place your hand on a white car's hood. There is a huge difference of perhaps 80°-100° as the white reflects IR while the black absorbs the IR and it heats that object. Cellular tissue absorbs IR quite well. Especially the mid and far IR. Near IR actually penetrates the first few layers of cells because of its shorter wavelength and can damage cellular tissue. IT is also absorbed as well and heats tissue quickly which can be a signal to get out of the exposure. So when we put too much near IR in an enclosure without the intensity of the sun, I am concerned about overexposure just as we are starting to see with UV.

So that gets us back to mid and far IR. Both are in frequencies that cellular tissue readily absorbs. But both are much more gentle and do not penetrate tissue, but absorbed. That absorption is what heats. A tortoises shell is particularly "designed" to absorb IR well. When exposed to IR, they will heat well above ambient temperature.

The Heat of the source of the IR determines the wavelength of the IR emitted. An incandescent bulb filament is 3000° or so and emits near IR. A CHE warms to 400°-500° and emits Far IR that is close to Mid IR. A radiant heat panel warms to about 105°-110° and emit very far IR. Your body, at 98° is also emitting very far IR.

So the Randiant heat panel is emitting a "gentler" IR, but more importantly it has a very large surface area from which that is emitted. No hot spots at all for even a fairly good sized tortoise. Especially in an enclosure or night box where the heat is placed above and fairly close to the top of the tortoise shell. That is one of the main reasons I make my enclosures 30" high. Basking lights and CHE's can be mounted high enough to mitigate this issue.

So what's better? When the height of the heat source is by necessity closer to the top of the tortoise shell, there is a distinct advantage for the panel over a CHE. This is exacerbated even further if in a night box that has to heat well above outside temps so the heat source has to stay on for long periods of time. If there is enough height, a CHE can heat a tortoise quicker. If it is a larger tortoise, I would not use a CHE because of hot spot burn, but you can overcome that if you have enough height and use an array of 3 or so CHE's to create a wider heated zone.
 

TeamZissou

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Thank you for the detailed reply. That makes a lot of sense, especially for a large tortoise in a night box.

With regard to raising hatchlings, would using a smaller RHP for basking be better than providing an incandescent basking bulb, since the Far-Mid IR is more gentle than the Near IR? Is there some benefit that Near IR via an incandescent bulb gives compared to the Far IR of a RHP if the same temperature can be reached?

I guess lately I've wondered why we use incandescent basking bulbs. I accept that they work well, but just wondered why. Hatchlings seem to enjoy laying under the basking lamp all day, which does dry out the shell a bit.

I thought I saw an older thread where Tom was experimenting raising hatchlings without basking bulbs, but I don't remember what the outcome was.
 

turtlesteve

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I think it is likely that the wavelength of IR matters but it is too soon to close the book on this one, in my opinion. Been thinking on this for a while though.

In nature the warmth they get from basking in the sun is mostly near IR, but with a very important caveat - it has been filtered by water vapor and CO2 in the atmosphere. The wavelengths that would cause rapid surface heating have been mostly removed, and what remains penetrates deep into tissue. There are currently no reptile lights on the market that mimic this effect (e.g. select for wavelengths that allow penetration) but near IR is “closest”. Mid and Long IR wavelengths are readily absorbed by tissue so they produce surface heating. BUT there is a second consideration - the maximum surface temperature will be limited by wavelength too. So because near IR carries more energy, it can result in far higher surface temperatures and thus has much more risk of overheating a tortoise than far IR.

So the importance of all of this, i think, is that the surface heating effect of artificial heat sources might be part of the reason that basking bulbs contribute to pyramiding. What we likely need is a near IR bulb that emits only selected wavelengths instead of the whole black body spectrum.
 

turtlesteve

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I hit submit too soon -

A near IR bulb designed for penetration would finally let us actually test hypotheses. Is deep penetration of tissue a good thing or a bad thing? What is really more “gentle”? A deep penetrating IR is more “sun-like” but maybe it becomes dangerous in the absence of bright ambient light to limit a tortoise’s basking behavior. I don’t mean any of this to be a recommendation for or against anything but until we can test different IR wavelengths in a more controlled fashion, I’m not sure we will really know.

Personally I am trying to greatly reduce basking IR intensity and increase ambient visible light, based on the realization that SOMETHING is going on - but I’m completely undecided as to whether radiant heat has any spectral benefit over CHE. The value is in avoiding hot spots and spreading the heat out more.
 

Diane Berner

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So if the ambient temperature in the house is 75 degrees and I'm supplying a basking spot of 90 degrees do I still need a radiant heat panel for my adult redfoot?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Hi Turbo20,

Can you talk about the shopping experience with ProProducts? To buy one from them they want detail about cage size etc.

Do them custom make the RHP based on the answers you provide, or do they use the answers to pick one from a stock of standard sizes?

I guess I'm being a bit lazy to not ask them directly, but your answer will be read by many here, so it will be for more than just my benefit alone. Thanks.

Pro Products is what I use. These are great.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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There have been several such discussions on a facebook group called 'reptile lighting'. They always have well reasoned arguments until they come to RHP's and then they ignore them or use some rational based on analogy, not first principles. That is they offer no direct argument for or against RHPs.

My anecdotal observation is that RHP's get the job done and tortoises figure it out - where the heat comes from without a 'light' being the que. RHP's heat solid object that their waves come in contact with, closer objects collect more heat as the waves of energy have not dispersed as much relative to farther away objects. I use RHP's in combination with bricks, tiles, and other dense hard objects so that those dense hard objects can re-radiate the heat in a range of IR wave lengths. The tortoises figure this out too.

What I like best about RHP's is that they don't burn things on contact. You can 'see' if they are working by touching them. Try that with any other heat generating system and you will get burnt.

I hit submit too soon -

A near IR bulb designed for penetration would finally let us actually test hypotheses. Is deep penetration of tissue a good thing or a bad thing? What is really more “gentle”? A deep penetrating IR is more “sun-like” but maybe it becomes dangerous in the absence of bright ambient light to limit a tortoise’s basking behavior. I don’t mean any of this to be a recommendation for or against anything but until we can test different IR wavelengths in a more controlled fashion, I’m not sure we will really know.

Personally I am trying to greatly reduce basking IR intensity and increase ambient visible light, based on the realization that SOMETHING is going on - but I’m completely undecided as to whether radiant heat has any spectral benefit over CHE. The value is in avoiding hot spots and spreading the heat out more.
 

turbo20

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Nov 14, 2020
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Wisconsin
Hi Turbo20,

Can you talk about the shopping experience with ProProducts? To buy one from them they want detail about cage size etc.

Do them custom make the RHP based on the answers you provide, or do they use the answers to pick one from a stock of standard sizes?

I guess I'm being a bit lazy to not ask them directly, but your answer will be read by many here, so it will be for more than just my benefit alone. Thanks.

Shopping experience was great. They do make them, but I was assume most are "standard sizes". Product is $$$, but so are our animals.
 
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