Red foot baby - no improvement today ):

[Kristina]

What is a Vet. with no experience at "starting" redfoot tortoise hatchlings going to say or do? More probing and poking? This baby has not had a bit of "peace" for the past 2 weeks..... and who knows how it was started/treated(??).. before then!

THAT TerryO is why I feel [ in most cases and THIS case especially ] Vets are not needed.

NERD

Have to say I agree. I don't see any symptoms that a vet can help with. Anything a vet would suggest (antibiotics or vitamin shots) would probably kill a baby this tiny in his weakened state.

Okay, here is what I suggest. You need to start doing babyfood/vitamin soaks. Get a shallow tub, and place enough warm water in it that it just covers the bridge between the carapace and the plastron. In the water you want to mix a jar of babyfood, either carrots or butternut squash. You also should add liquid vitamins. Bird vitamins, such as Vitasol, work well, as well as infant vitamin drops, like Gerber Poly Vi Sol. Place the tub of water in a place where it will stay warm for 15-20 minutes, under a heat lamp, on a heat pad, or by a heat duct. Don't let it get TOO hot, just warm. 1 minute soaks won't cut it.

You should see an improvement in 3-4 days. Keep misting with warm water at least 3 times a day, and do not handle the baby except to place him in the soaks. Once the eyes open and the swelling goes down, feed some of this plant - it is a weed that is found all over the U.S. and has almost twice the Vit. A of carrots. Collect from an area that is pesticide free and not visited by dogs that may have had toxic (to torts) heartworm medication.

It is called broad leaf plantain, and actually grows all over the WORLD, not just the U.S. It is a natural food for most tortoise species, and one that I feel all should be fed, because of the natural levels of Vit. A contained in the plant. It keeps the eyes and body healthy.

 

[Madkins007]

What is a Vet. with no experience at "starting" redfoot tortoise hatchlings going to say or do? More probing and poking? This baby has not had a bit of "peace" for the past 2 weeks..... and who knows how it was started/treated(??).. before then!

THAT TerryO is why I feel [ in most cases and THIS case especially ] Vets are not needed.

NERD

One big thing a vet can do, that neither you nor I can, is to actually SEE the tortoise and give it a complete examination.

A vet with even moderate experience can check for worms and other parasites, can check the blood values for proper levels of key nutrients and calcium, can help determine why the eyes are swollen/sticky, etc. Don't forget- most vets, even without being reptile experts, have access to a lot of good, well-researched information (admittedly, not all vets bother to do this research but it is there).

A vet can offer a far more effective course of medications, supplements, and supportive cares than most of us can offer. Many of the things that can help a tort in poor condition work best when offered as an injection, etc. There is a chance that this tortoise is sickly from birth, a 'runt' or similar. A vet may not be able to fix everything, but can sure help sort things out for us.

I am not claiming that this poor guy needs a vet- this may well be something pretty straightforward- but ANY suggestion or advice that might prevent a person from seeing a vet for a sick animal seems inappropriate to me.



Tanker- there is a list on the forums of reptile vets by state. Do you have someone nearby if you should decide to go that route?

 

[terryo]

What is a Vet. with no experience at "starting" redfoot tortoise hatchlings going to say or do? More probing and poking? This baby has not had a bit of "peace" for the past 2 weeks..... and who knows how it was started/treated(??).. before then!

THAT TerryO is why I feel [ in most cases and THIS case especially ] Vets are not needed.

NERD

Well NERD, you are the expert, with your 6 years experience....not me. Only saying what I would do if I were an inexperienced keeper.

I hope your baby will be OK....keep us updated, because as you can see, we are all concerned. hugs.....

 

[Tracy Gould]

But if this little tort as a eye infection does n't he need antibiotics yer i know we all have to be careful because there are vets out there that do not know anoth about torts but a good Reptile Vet could be the difference between losing a sick tort and it pulling through I know this little guy as had a hard time and is proberly stressed out but can cleaning the eyes get ride of the infection, i am not disagreeing with anyone i am learning too, I have held back on going to a vet before and lost my first Guinea pig because of this they are like Torts they hide illness so when u know they are sick they are really sick, this little tort as been sick and not eatting or drinking for too long now and it eyes are puffed up, to me it needs a rep vet check up i know stress can kill and the poor thing is going to getting more and more stressed yes a vet would stress it out but constant handling and trying to get it to eat while the illness is not getting any better is not going to do it any good.

 

[Kristina]

In my experience, 99% of the time eye issues are caused by Vit. A deficiency and easily cured with diet adjustments and the baby food soaks. If upping the amount of dietary Vit. A does not help, then there is an over the counter miracle drug called Teramycin Opthalmic Ointment that will clear it up just fine.

It is up to the owner whether the baby goes to the vet or not. I will say this. DO NOT allow ANY veterinarian to give a tortoise a vitamin shot. EVER. They can easily overdose and it literally causes the skin to slough off, and in extreme cases the beak and nails FALL OFF.

 

[Madkins007]

Have to say I agree. I don't see any symptoms that a vet can help with. Anything a vet would suggest (antibiotics or vitamin shots) would probably kill a baby this tiny in his weakened state.

Okay, here is what I suggest. You need to start doing babyfood/vitamin soaks. Get a shallow tub, and place enough warm water in it that it just covers the bridge between the carapace and the plastron. In the water you want to mix a jar of babyfood, either carrots or butternut squash. You also should add liquid vitamins. Bird vitamins, such as Vitasol, work well, as well as infant vitamin drops, like Gerber Poly Vi Sol. Place the tub of water in a place where it will stay warm for 15-20 minutes, under a heat lamp, on a heat pad, or by a heat duct. Don't let it get TOO hot, just warm. 1 minute soaks won't cut it.

You should see an improvement in 3-4 days. Keep misting with warm water at least 3 times a day, and do not handle the baby except to place him in the soaks. Once the eyes open and the swelling goes down, feed some of this plant - it is a weed that is found all over the U.S. and has almost twice the Vit. A of carrots. Collect from an area that is pesticide free and not visited by dogs that may have had toxic (to torts) heartworm medication.

It is called broad leaf plantain, and actually grows all over the WORLD, not just the U.S. It is a natural food for most tortoise species, and one that I feel all should be fed, because of the natural levels of Vit. A contained in the plant. It keeps the eyes and body healthy.

Since you are offering large doses of vitamin A, I assume you are equating the eye issue to hypovitaminosis A- too little vitamin A. This is a common problem for Box Turtles that is rarely seen in tortoises. (Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery"). Closed eyes in tortoises are more often the result of an infection, care issue, or injury. A vet can help offer a better diagnosis, and an effective treatment for most of these.

Vitamin A is also a fat-soluble vitamin and builds up in the tissues- excess amounts are not washed out in the urine as the water-soluble vitamins are. It is not a good idea to use large doses of A routinely on most animals, especially small ones. Granted, it takes a lot to overdose on it, but the body does not really need large amounts- especially since, as was already stated, it stores what it does not need and can reuse it when it does.

Vitamin D and E are also fat-soluble which is why we work to offer vitamin D, but also work to avoid over-doing it. Reptile nutritionists suggest a ratio of about 100:10:1 of A, D, and E. Many vitamin supplements are more like 1,000:10:1, and some reptile vitamins are actually 5,000:10:1! Yikes!

I know- too much information! Sorry!

Clean 'common' or broad-leaved plantain is a great addition to the diet. Good nutrient load, easy to raise, etc. I love seeing it on diet lists!

 

[Kristina]

Since you are offering large doses of vitamin A, I assume you are equating the eye issue to hypovitaminosis A- too little vitamin A. This is a common problem for Box Turtles that is rarely seen in tortoises. (Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery"). Closed eyes in tortoises are more often the result of an infection, care issue, or injury. A vet can help offer a better diagnosis, and an effective treatment for most of these.

I do completely respect Dr. Mader, however - 15 years experience has shown me over and over that upping the amount of dietary Vit. A will clear up most eye issues in 3-4 days. I don't know why it works, but it does.

At this point, I am going to bow out of this thread, because it is quickly turning in to an argument about how the OP should proceed. I get frustrated when this happens, because someone is here looking for help, and now is probably so confused they do not know WHAT to do.

Again, I do not know why my method works, but it does. Yvonne and Maggie have both also used this treatment method for years, and it works. I am not going to fix what isn't broken.

To the OP. Please do what your gut tells you to do. If you think the baby should go to the vet, by all means, take it. I am simply offering my opinion and experience. I wish you and the baby Redfoot the absolute best. Good luck!

 

[Madkins007]

In my experience, 99% of the time eye issues are caused by Vit. A deficiency and easily cured with diet adjustments and the baby food soaks. If upping the amount of dietary Vit. A does not help, then there is an over the counter miracle drug called Teramycin Opthalmic Ointment that will clear it up just fine.

It is up to the owner whether the baby goes to the vet or not. I will say this. DO NOT allow ANY veterinarian to give a tortoise a vitamin shot. EVER. They can easily overdose and it literally causes the skin to slough off, and in extreme cases the beak and nails FALL OFF.

I understand where you are coming from, but the wider experience of vets, researchers, etc. is that most TORTOISE eye issues are not vitamin A related, and the antibiotic eye ointment is not something that should be used unless there is a specific medical reason for it- inappropriate use of antibiotics causes resistant germs among other things.

The vitamin shot you are referring to is usually vitamin A. Because so many people (sadly, even some vets) think that most eye issues are because of vitamin A deficiency, they get a vitamin A shot and an instant A overdose... but that result pretty much proves that it was not hypovitaminosis A in the first place.

An aware vet will not give a vitamin A shot without doing a blood test first to confirm the diagnosis of hypovitaminosis A. To be fair to the vets, an awful lot of pet owners are reluctant to pay for the blood test, so the vet tries to cover his bases by offering a general antibiotic and multivitamin booster.




The bottom line here is that none of us has enough information to diagnose the poor tort based on what has been written here so far.

---

I do completely respect Dr. Mader, however - 15 years experience has shown me over and over that upping the amount of dietary Vit. A will clear up most eye issues in 3-4 days. I don't know why it works, but it does.

At this point, I am going to bow out of this thread, because it is quickly turning in to an argument about how the OP should proceed. I get frustrated when this happens, because someone is here looking for help, and now is probably so confused they do not know WHAT to do.

Again, I do not know why my method works, but it does. Yvonne and Maggie have both also used this treatment method for years, and it works. I am not going to fix what isn't broken.

To the OP. Please do what your gut tells you to do. If you think the baby should go to the vet, by all means, take it. I am simply offering my opinion and experience. I wish you and the baby Redfoot the absolute best. Good luck!

I hope you don't bow out of the thread, and you are right, we are beginning to strain at gnats here. Lots of guessing, little raw data.

There are a lot of treatments for humans and animals that seem to work, but are contrary to clinical evidence. Pumpkin seeds are a good example of this- many people swear to get results but clinical trials do not.

I can think of several reasons that things that should not work- vitamin A for tortoise eyes, baby food soaks, etc.- actually do work. The trick, in my opinion, is to see if we can peel away the layers and find the useful parts of the treatment.

For example, vitamin A eyedrops seem to help a lot of swollen eye cases, but the main benefit may be from the oiliness of the drops lubricating the eye and removing the stickiness. Another example- Native peoples used to chew on willow to relieve headaches. Northern Europeans laughed at them until we discovered aspirin- a material naturally occurring in willow.

Either way- open discussions like this help us figure stuff out!

 

[Cherbear]

I bought a leopard tortoise at a reptile show last month. He's a couple months old now. When I brought him home within hours his eyes went shut and looked puffy. I took him to the vet on that Monday. She told me that he probably had vit. A def. and told me to buy vit A gelcaps made for humans, prick it with a needle a put a drop in his eyes once a day for one week. His eyes are normal now, but I don't know if that is what really fixed it or not. I suspect it may have be my coco fiber because it happend within hours of being on it. He is on reptile carpet for now.

I hope everything works out for you!

 

[tanker]

Hi everyone
Thanks for your concern and advise, I am VERY worried and trying my best to help him. Im at work on mondays so I will let you know what he is doing when I get home. Thanks again for all the support.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

This is a perfectly healthy 'cherryhead' - same age and size - sleeping..

Where do we see any "puffiness, etc." in Chelsea's baby? We don't!

NERD

 

[goReptiles]

I have always had an issue with Domino leaving his eyes shut. One breeder told me that the humidity may be too high, and the substrate too wet.

Before he came down with a respiratory infection (from the tortoise that I bought a month or so ago), he almost always had his eyes closed until he was soaked or misted. Then he'd open them.

I have changed the tub a good bit, but no improvement on the eyes because I changed the tub when his respiratory deal was getting bad, so now he's sick. I'm hoping he'll pull through, and the change of enclosure will help the eyes.

 

[terryo]

This is a perfectly healthy 'cherryhead' - same age and size - sleeping..

Where do we see any "puffiness, etc." in Chelsea's baby? We don't!

NERD

But she also said that he doesn't open his eyes, and doesn't eat or do much of anything. Do you think this is normal NERD? You don't have to soak yours to open his eyes do you? No disrespect to you, but I think this is a bit different.
And...Kristina...please don't go anywhere. You give great advice, and I have been doing exactly what you said to my old Ornate, and putting Terramycin on her eye, and after only two days she's almost back to normal. After 30 + years with boxies, the is the only one that got sick, so I thank you for this great advice.

 

[Candy]

Tanker where did you get the bark that's in his enclosure? Is it Cedar or is something else mixed with it? It is free of contaminates right? Just trying to go over all of your posts so we didn't miss anything that could possibly be making him this way. I don't know if this matters to most people and I think that it would depend on where you live, but I always give the filtered water to drink not out of the tap. I think that's just me though.

 

[Tracy Gould]

I am feeling pretty bad it was me that posted about the eyes looking puffy but i did state i do not keep redfoots and that i am not an expert, I was just trying to help and i know its not normal for them to keep theire eyes closed and my hermanns eyes look alot smaller when closed but after seeing the other picture i can see its a redfoot thing the last thing i wanted to do was to start a heated debate on someones thread. I am also sorry if i upset anyone I was not pulling down anyones advice and i know u guys have had alot of experience where i am a newbie. Its just i have seen a few posts were they have lost the Tortoise and that breaks my heart, I am worried about going to the vets too and will admit i have yet to take Shelby and i have had her 6 months i fed her butternut squash to worm her and keep a close eye on her to make sure she is not having problems but although i worry about seeing the vet the first sign she is sick i will be off to see them as i held back in the past and lost my pet. Kristina if i said anything in my other post that offended u i am sorry i was nt having a go at u i promise, I am still learning an taking in info for the future because i am sure one day i will need it.

Tanker I really hope your little Tort gets better soon, follow ur gut if u do decide to see a vet take a list of meds to avoid i am sure that if u ask the people on the forum will give u help with this they are great. I know if i do end up at the vets i will be asking them for Meds to avoid.

I just had a idea could one of the experts or Admins put up a thread of Meds to avoid.Or is there one already.If there is i will be making a copy to keep with me for any future Vet trips

 

[terryo]

Tracy, don't feel bad, because it's always good to point something out in case the op or someone here missed it. I think everyone is just so concerned here, and of course just want to help. I am no expert either as I only have two torts, and so far none have been sick. I just hope the little guy is OK.

 

[dmmj]

I am also hoping tanker pulls through, I am worried that there may be something wrong with it and if he/she is concerned about going to the vet it may end up being to late. I think we would all like to be able to go to experienced turtle and tort vets, but even a non herp vet should still be able to offer some advice. I personally only know of 3 reasons for puffy eyes that are closed. vit a def. an RI. or a substrate contamination in the eye, A vet may be able to offer other reasons, I am not one to scream run to the vet at a drop of a hat, but honestly vet visits are needed, no one should be afraid to go to a vet even a non herp vet. This is what I would do personally this is not medical advice, I would start soaking with vitamins in the water and see if that does not perk it up, no unneeded handling and if it looks like it is not improving I would take it to a vet. my 2 cents.

 

[Tracy Gould]

Tracy, don't feel bad, because it's always good to point something out in case the op or someone here missed it. I think everyone is just so concerned here, and of course just want to help. I am no expert either as I only have two torts, and so far none have been sick. I just hope the little guy is OK.

Thanks terryo. Mine as not been ill yet either but she likes to make me worry she goes into a sulk when i change stuff and avoids new things even new water dishes for days. I really hope this little guy pulls through its so frustrating i wish they could make a noise if my Piggies or my dog is not well i can check them over and if it hurts they squeal or yelp that lets me know where the problem is but these guys can not tell u an it seems like one big guessing game but one that if u get it wrong u can lose them, Thats were a good Vet comes in handy they can run tests to find out whats wrong, its just the treatment bit that scares me there is so much advice to take in with these guys what to feed what to avoid, what meds to give what to avoid, and some of the advices conflicts!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

This is a perfectly healthy 'cherryhead' - same age and size - sleeping..

Where do we see any "puffiness, etc." in Chelsea's baby? We don't!

NERD

But she also said that he doesn't open his eyes, and doesn't eat or do much of anything. Do you think this is normal NERD? You don't have to soak yours to open his eyes do you? No disrespect to you, but I think this is a bit different.
And...Kristina...please don't go anywhere. You give great advice, and I have been doing exactly what you said to my old Ornate, and putting Terramycin on her eye, and after only two days she's almost back to normal. After 30 + years with boxies, the is the only one that got sick, so I thank you for this great advice.

One thing at a time!

This is not an "EYE" issue TerryO.... I was showing that - everybody went off on this eye issue thing as if by treating the eyes is going to heal this baby...

NERD

 

[Candy]

Tanker where did you get the bark that's in his enclosure? Is it Cedar or is something else mixed with it? It is free of contaminates right? Just trying to go over all of your posts so we didn't miss anything that could possibly be making him this way. I don't know if this matters to most people and I think that it would depend on where you live, but I always give the filtered water to drink not out of the tap. I think that's just me though.

Tanker I did not mean Cedar bark. I meant to say Cypress. I'm surprised someone didn't catch that one.