Redfoot disaster rescue...please help her

[Sulcata_Sandy]

I just got home from night from hell (disaster rescue plus smashed my new Sorento into deer).

Cowboy_Ken found her on a CL search, forwarded to me, as I wanted to get more RFs. Keeper is downsizing, he choose to rehome this one. Add stated she was 3-4 years old, female. I low balled him and he agreed, sent me pix and she seemed small, but I admittedly don't know much about them...only had my other RF for 10 days (rescue).

So, I pick "her" up. She is very small. About 4" long, SHOCKINGLY light for size, sunken eyes, dry shell, inverted scutes (I'd expect pyramiding, but inverted???), so now I'm sad for her.
I head home (hit deer on the way, ruin new car....ugh...beside the point)

I get her home, and immediately soak her for 30 minutes.
I took her out, and she is SOFT! I can squish her shell! My heart sank.
Here are pix.







I could use all the help I can get.
My Redfoot winter enclosure is this:

Closed chamber
80/95°
Humidity 80% with a custom fogger
lots of big leafy plants
Log hide
Water dish
Spring mix, fresh, always available
Occas animal protein source.
No bright lights



Questions
What does her soft shell mean?
Is it a "her"?
Is she really small for a 3 year old?
What do the indented scutes mean?

My plan is to feed her until she bursts, warm soaks twice daily for how, and keep her in this dark jungle enclosure.

 

[Millerlite]

It could be MBD, from a lack of vitamin d3 and calcium. It can be due from improper diet and lighting. You need to get a nice little enclosure set up which it sounds like you did. UVB light and I would start using supplements do she can get calcium and d3 back into her but don't over do it. D3 in high doses is poisonous. How is her appetite btw? Also does she walk around or seems sleepy all the time? This is why she is a rescue, and there is a reason you have her. And that's to save her life. I'm rather new to red footed tortoises too so hopefully someone can help out more, but it does sound like lake of vitamins and MBD. Or something like that

Kyle

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Since my car is a smashed disaster, I'm going to stay home, and focus on my tortoises.
As long as it's not raining, I'm taking both redfoots outside for some real sun.

I've not had her home more than an hour. She fought me for holding still for pix, moves fast. She seems energetic. I offered her food, but she ran for cover. The soft shell makes me sick.

I hope RF people can give input on her size. I have a hard time believing 4-5" is appropriate for a 3-4 year old.

 

[AnnV]

Pretty little thing. I hope you can help her.
I would say she is small. My 2.5 year olds are bigger. One of mine is much bigger. And my smaller one is slightly bigger than that.
Is she a cherryhead? They are smaller, aren't they?
She has a nicely shaped shell though. Mine have some slight pyramiding because I didn't know the importance of consistently high humidity til I came to this forum.

 

[sibi]

Sandy I don't have a redfoot, but I know about MDB. This poor tort has it bad. The soft shell and inverted scutes show the extent of the damage done. She'll need real sun if weather permits. She'll need calcium supplements 3 times a week, just a small spread over her food. Her diet should be improved, and I think the closed chamber may not help her at this point. Although she needs humidity, I think 80% humidity is too much for RF, and temps of 80-95 degrees may also be too high (you may want to check temps and humidity with an expert on RF).

Try to stimulate exercise once she's settled down in her new environment. She may not want to eat for the first couple of days. Just let her be, and observe her when she does. It's possible that she's not able to eat on her own or has trouble eating. That would explain her size which I think is really small. If she's struggling to get to her food, you may want to hand feed her.

If her organs aren't damaged (kidneys, liver, lungs) from MBD, she may live with good care. It will take about a year to see good results on the MBD. But, once she's in recovery, she'll grow and thrive.

Oh, and she should not be put in with any other tort (I know you know this) because her shell is soooo soft, she could be hurt by another tort.

 

[ascott]

So sorry to hear of the crazy rescue pick up...that really is a bummer...I do have to say that the tort "looks" fairly good...I would suspect she is younger than 3 or 4 years of age...not by much but younger...she either is younger (due to the impressive shell shape or she was in a high humidity environment which masked her real condition)...so sounds like the closed chamber you have set up is perfect...I normally would not promote bright uv ray light for this species but due to the softer shell I would make it available...also, the outdoor time will prove nothing but beneficial....I sure do think you have a younger tort on your hands and if this is so, then I would strive to allow calm, warm quiet environment so as to get the tort adjusted as quickly as possible...this way the outdoor sun time and such will be less stressful...

Very beautiful tort....when you say the prior keeper is downsizing, did you happen to see what their set ups are for the torts they are retaining?

 

[mikeh]

From the pics she actually looks very good. In this case inverted scutes mean she was well hydrated at one time. Once you get her into the very humid environment the swelling at the scute ends may go down making her almost perfect shell, totally smooth and round. Who ever had her knew what they were doing at least to some degree.

She is a very nice looking RF. Does her shell feel soft like sponge or more springy??? That may answer more concerns.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

He is a boxie breeder, said he had two RFs, other was bullying her. He said he's more attached to him, so he rehomed her. We met at a well lit parking lot in town, vs me driving alone to boonies....don't wanna end of shackled in a basement! Eeeeeek!

He repeatedly (phone call, texts) said he's had her at least 3 years, and thought she was close to a year when he bought her. He's positive it was three years.

I agree, she looks pretty dang good in these pix, as did she in the pix he sent me when I inquired. But when I held her, she felt disturbingly light, shell and skin very dehydrated, sunken eyes. I soaked her for 30 min as soon as I walked in the door, then took pix.

As I walked her to her fancy new jungle home, I gently squeezed her, both plastron and carapace feel thin and flexible. Very creepy...kinda like a Pancake tortoise...which creep me out!

 

[sibi]

The thing about torts with MBD is that they will look perfectly round and smooth especially if they are small for their age. However, as the tort starts to receive better care and begins to grow, the damaged carapace will start to reveal deformities that weren't evident before.

If you look at pics of Baby Runt when I first got her, she was tiny and her scutes didn't look overly deformed. But, as she received better care, her carapace showed deformities that were not there a year before.

You are the only one now that can actually determine if she's in good condition. However, by the description you have given, this tort is far from being okay! Trust me on this one Sandy. This tort is suffering from MBD.

So, pics can be deceiving, and I would proceed with caution on this one. As far as humidity is concerned, I don't know what is normal for redfoots, but 80% seems a bit high.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

I'm with you, sibi. She feels just awful to the touch. My gut tells me she's in trouble and may not survive...potential renal disease and complications of MBD. I hope we are wrong, I'm treating her like she's in critical care. THANK GOD I'm a vet tech...I have a hospital at my disposal and experienced staff....DVMs and techs...to assist.

Redfoots need hot and very humid. 80° cool side, 90° hot side, RH 85%. They are native to rainforests in South America. [HIBISCUS]

 

[wellington]

RF are also prone to shell rot. Do not let the top layer of her enclosure remain wet.

 

[RosieRedfoot]

Sorry to hear it... As for redfoots I keep my Rosie at 76-82 with 94 basking. I keep humidity at 70-90%. If not wanting to eat, try leaving a piece of strawberry or mango. I assume you're doing a fecal test at the vet you work for to rule out parasites (assuming the tort will poop for you).

My Rosie is only 5" at 2.5 years old. She was 3.7" at 1.5 years. But that tort's size in the picture looks to be about how big Rosie was when I got her at 1.5 years and she was very light and dry initially. With good food and soaks she bulked up.

Good food, good light, and lots of soaks! Really hope things start looking up for you.

 

[AZtortMom]

Poor baby [PENSIVE FACE] I really pray she pulls thru

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

RF are also prone to shell rot. Do not let the top layer of her enclosure remain wet.

Already ahead of yah. I poor water in corners, mist shells only, and I have a fogger/mister device.
Thank you [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES][GROWING HEART]

---

Sorry to hear it... As for redfoots I keep my Rosie at 76-82 with 94 basking. I keep humidity at 70-90%. If not wanting to eat, try leaving a piece of strawberry or mango. I assume you're doing a fecal test at the vet you work for to rule out parasites (assuming the tort will poop for you).

My Rosie is only 5" at 2.5 years old. She was 3.7" at 1.5 years. But that tort's size in the picture looks to be about how big Rosie was when I got her at 1.5 years and she was very light and dry initially. With good food and soaks she bulked up.

Good food, good light, and lots of soaks! Really hope things start looking up for you.

Interesting measurements vs age.
They have strawberry and mango, ironically....picked those up yesterday. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]
I'm going to deworm her today vs fecal. No such thing as a negative fecal, too easy to miss a parasite ova and think animal is clear. So I empirically deworm everyone that comes thru here on day 1, 11 and 14.

---

Here's the new jungle room, 24" ReptiSun on. I'm working on buying more plants, but they are not cheap! Lots of places to hide. Heated from above with a CHE and a black light

 

[mainey34]

Thats the problem with rescues. I had the same thing with my redfoot rescue. But not the soft shell. I cant imagine the MBD, but what do i know. The inverted secutes are generally from poor diet and conditions. And i agree she was taken care of at one point. I didn't notice any shell rot or fungus. Its going to take some time and work on this one. By the way im thinking you have a male and there is no way it is 3-4 years old, unless it wasnt being fed properly. But by the looks of it this is probably true..

 

[wellington]

A more experienced tort person can explain this in more detail, but it really isn't good to deworm a tortoise if there is no reason showing to do so. That's for any animal really.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Thats the problem with rescues. I had the same thing with my redfoot rescue. But not the soft shell. I cant imagine the MBD, but what do i know. The inverted secutes are generally from poor diet and conditions. And i agree she was taken care of at one point. I didn't notice any shell rot or fungus. Its going to take some time and work on this one. By the way im thinking you have a male and there is no way it is 3-4 years old, unless it wasnt being fed properly. But by the looks of it this is probably true..

Sucky thing is, I didn't get her as a rescue, I choose to purchase one locally off CL for myself because I'm now sucked into RF love. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES][GROWING HEART]
But when I got ahold of her, it turned into a rescue. [DISAPPOINTED FACE]

Is prefer a female, but it really doesn't matter. It will be loved and cared for regardless.
Curious, how would you sex one this small?

It is 4.5" long, weight is 134g
Do you go by vent shape? | vs * ?

---

A more experienced tort person can explain this in more detail, but it really isn't good to deworm a tortoise if there is no reason showing to do so. That's for any animal really.

I respectfully disagree. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]
23 years as a licensed tech, working with all kinds of animals including wildlife. Panacur is very safe, gentle, and targets only intestinal parasites.
When every veterinarian I've worked with recommends this practice (I used to feel as you do, but years of experience has changed my mind) so I've chosen this method. When we effectively and harmlessly give critical care patients Panacur (because they have odd symptoms, and internal parasites are a possibility, and fecal is "negative" or as I chart "No ova or parasites seen"), I feel very comfortable treating them.

Just because I performed a fecal test...meaning I've centrifuged the sample and given time for ova to float and suspend in my floatation solution, looked at drop on slide....there are a lot of factors to contribute to no ova being present on the slide.
Worms were not shedding ova at the time I collected sample, very minor worm burden so that particular bit of sample didn't have ova present, or ova trapped in sediment and unable to float to coverslip, when I lifted coverslip the ova slid off. See? So many variables. Since the product is safe, and I don't know all the conditions they came, I'd rather gently deworm them because there is a greater chance they have a parasite, esp when I DO know this animal was housed outdoors on grass and dirt during the summer. Prob ingested a hitchhiker while nibbling on plants. [SNAKE]

That's my official "no such thang as a negative fecal" soapbox speech. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

 

[Leo1986]

Fecals are only 80% accurate at best. Deworming an unexposed animal (one who hasn't seen dewormer) is unlikely to cause resistance... Which is what everyone worries about.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Fecals are only 80% accurate at best. Deworming an unexposed animal (one who hasn't seen dewormer) is unlikely to cause resistance... Which is what everyone worries about.

As with annual deworming.
I've also never heard of any animal becoming resistant to Fenbendazole. Amoxi, yes.

 

[Leo1986]

Fecals are only 80% accurate at best. Deworming an unexposed animal (one who hasn't seen dewormer) is unlikely to cause resistance... Which is what everyone worries about.

As with annual deworming.
I've also never heard of any animal becoming resistant to Fenbendazole. Amoxi, yes.

I agree 100% with you sandy! glad I'm not alone on the dewormer stance! Honestly even when used as frequently as every two weeks in puppies with huge worm burdens.... Followed up with monthly heartgard (which has dewormer built in... Not panacur... But still) for life there isn't any indication of resistance.