So other than size, what is the difference between a cherry-head Redfoot and a "regular" Redfoot? :-/
Redfoot question-
- Thread starter Moozillion
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No difference. They look different, but are the same tortoise...Geochelone (Chelonoidis??) carbonaria.
Thanks!!!
This is actually a bit of a controversial subject. While right now, the 'cherry-head' (aka Brazilian or Easter) is just considered a race or red-footed tortoise, it does have several characteristics that suggest it may be a different species or subspecies.
One of these differences is that they seem to hit sexual maturity at a smaller size (6", 4-6 years old compared to 8" and 6-8 years old for Northern red-footeds) and average out a little smaller- 9" or so compared to 12" or so. HOWEVER there are lots of exceptions, including rare 'giants' hitting 14".
(This is based on field work by people like Vinke and Vetter, and the experiences of keepers like Carl May, etc.)
https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/red-foots/red-footed--cherry-head
One of these differences is that they seem to hit sexual maturity at a smaller size (6", 4-6 years old compared to 8" and 6-8 years old for Northern red-footeds) and average out a little smaller- 9" or so compared to 12" or so. HOWEVER there are lots of exceptions, including rare 'giants' hitting 14".
(This is based on field work by people like Vinke and Vetter, and the experiences of keepers like Carl May, etc.)
https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/red-foots/red-footed--cherry-head
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I’ve been keeping/Breeding Reds N Cherries only for about 15 years …..Owning well over 100 adults and sub adults in that time , they may be related but NOT the EXACT same species. Aside from the nonsense of them being dwarfs, I’ve never had or seen proof of a 6-8†cherry producing viable offspring?
“No one seems to know the exact range or preferred habitat, if it is a subspecies or a different species or just a local variant, etc.â€
- Well that’s awfully vague and by no means any proof they are the same species, or even their locality.
And just all the attributes as Mark has listed in his book , which are spot on…….
“A mostly dark plastron, which often lacks a defined pattern. The carapace is more likely to show mottling (white spaces developing between scutes as they grow) than Northerns.
An enlarged, colorful, scale on the inside of the front 'elbows'. The nose is usually brightly colored and slightly bulbous compared to a Northern. This is the 'Rudolph Sign'. The scales on the head and legs are the same color- brick red to a cherry red, oranges, some yellows, even pinkish on occasion. There are often not as many colored scales as on Northerns. Typical sizes are 23cm/9in for males, 25cm/10in for females compared to about 30cm/12in for Northeasterns, although 'giant' individuals over 35cm/14in are often found.dult male Easterns do not show the 'wasp waist' shell constriction, and often do not have as deep of a plastron indentation. Some adult males show a flaring of the rear marginals. Large female Easterns often develop a bit of a 'bump' on the last vertebral scute, giving the shell a bit of a pointy look. They appear to reach maturity earlier and at a smaller size than Northeasterns- 15cm/6in and about 4-6 years old, compared to 20cm/8in and 6-8 years old. Females do not generally lay eggs until about 24cm/9.5in. Male Easterns are generally smaller than same-age females, unlike Northeasterns. For unknown reasons, some female Easterns in captivity develop male-like features- longer tails, indented plastrons, and wide anal scute angles. These females generally do not reproduce well.â€
Hard for me to say I would call them the exact same species……….Sort’a like humans
eh ? …( we have already had that nasty debate )
“Tortoises marked as 'cherry-heads' often cost more because dealers learned a long time ago that any unusual color variation in a reptile makes it more desirable, and people will pay more for that.â€
- Of course they will , just like cars, bikes, home remodels , tortoises of the “exact†same species, plants and flowers too!
Bottom line they tend to be a much more colorful tortoise, I dont think folks give a hoot to the "origin" : of their new pet.
Although with today’s economy people don’t have extra funds to spend on torts like they use too…….heck 15 years ago you could sell/spend $250- 300 for a sullie baby, now the market being “ washed out†I can purchase them down the street for 25 bucks. Reminds me of the Red Ear Slider gig in the 70’s.
I would be safe to say they are very closely related but not the "EXACT" same species~ more inclined to lable them a "sub species"
JD~
“No one seems to know the exact range or preferred habitat, if it is a subspecies or a different species or just a local variant, etc.â€
- Well that’s awfully vague and by no means any proof they are the same species, or even their locality.
And just all the attributes as Mark has listed in his book , which are spot on…….
“A mostly dark plastron, which often lacks a defined pattern. The carapace is more likely to show mottling (white spaces developing between scutes as they grow) than Northerns.
An enlarged, colorful, scale on the inside of the front 'elbows'. The nose is usually brightly colored and slightly bulbous compared to a Northern. This is the 'Rudolph Sign'. The scales on the head and legs are the same color- brick red to a cherry red, oranges, some yellows, even pinkish on occasion. There are often not as many colored scales as on Northerns. Typical sizes are 23cm/9in for males, 25cm/10in for females compared to about 30cm/12in for Northeasterns, although 'giant' individuals over 35cm/14in are often found.dult male Easterns do not show the 'wasp waist' shell constriction, and often do not have as deep of a plastron indentation. Some adult males show a flaring of the rear marginals. Large female Easterns often develop a bit of a 'bump' on the last vertebral scute, giving the shell a bit of a pointy look. They appear to reach maturity earlier and at a smaller size than Northeasterns- 15cm/6in and about 4-6 years old, compared to 20cm/8in and 6-8 years old. Females do not generally lay eggs until about 24cm/9.5in. Male Easterns are generally smaller than same-age females, unlike Northeasterns. For unknown reasons, some female Easterns in captivity develop male-like features- longer tails, indented plastrons, and wide anal scute angles. These females generally do not reproduce well.â€
Hard for me to say I would call them the exact same species……….Sort’a like humans
eh ? …( we have already had that nasty debate )
“Tortoises marked as 'cherry-heads' often cost more because dealers learned a long time ago that any unusual color variation in a reptile makes it more desirable, and people will pay more for that.â€
- Of course they will , just like cars, bikes, home remodels , tortoises of the “exact†same species, plants and flowers too!
Bottom line they tend to be a much more colorful tortoise, I dont think folks give a hoot to the "origin" : of their new pet.
Although with today’s economy people don’t have extra funds to spend on torts like they use too…….heck 15 years ago you could sell/spend $250- 300 for a sullie baby, now the market being “ washed out†I can purchase them down the street for 25 bucks. Reminds me of the Red Ear Slider gig in the 70’s.
I would be safe to say they are very closely related but not the "EXACT" same species~ more inclined to lable them a "sub species"
JD~
Thanks for all the info- this forum is THE best I've found for information, even when folks disagree.
JD- to clarify- when I said sexual maturity, I was referring to the age/size they show sexual characteristics. Most people I have talked to or read seem to agree that this happens earlier than it does for 'northerners'. I was not trying to imply that they could lay eggs then.
That is one area I cannot seem to find much data on. What IS the general size they start to lay at successfully?
I am a HUGE fan of them not being the same species. The 'mystery' bit was just meant to reflect the scarcity of field research on them, as well as the disparity between their current taxonomic status and things like DNA studies and physical characteristics.
That is one area I cannot seem to find much data on. What IS the general size they start to lay at successfully?
I am a HUGE fan of them not being the same species. The 'mystery' bit was just meant to reflect the scarcity of field research on them, as well as the disparity between their current taxonomic status and things like DNA studies and physical characteristics.
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Mark , yes I understood what you meant, and you write very well indeed, but when reading it “ reaching sexual maturity at 6-8†some folks might think they will produce at that age
Anyhow … no bad vibes here, and I KNOW your very knowledgeable on this species. Matter of fact , I refer to your site quite often to see new info. I find that not only size is really a consideration but age as well. First lets talk about size, The cherries in my herd who produce viable eggs are all at least 10+†, with Queen Elizabeth around 13+â€, There are 7 total adult females with 5 of them constant “layersâ€. I also notice the older females usually produce more eggs, with a better fertility rate as well. ( A common trait for all torts I believe) Most of the Cherry females are 2-4 eggs at a time , but Queen is 8-10 eggs almost always. And this year 24 out of 24 hatched from her.
We had 40 total and 31 hatched ( in the last 6 months ) and gals are nesting as we type. On the redfoot side, Momma hypo is another “older†tortoise and she too is a big layer with the last clutch last year of 10.….but still only around 11†or so . Anyhow love your posts and feedback as well
JD~
PS: I too hopefully will be able to contribute valid information one day classifying this type of tortoise correctly.
Anyhow … no bad vibes here, and I KNOW your very knowledgeable on this species. Matter of fact , I refer to your site quite often to see new info. I find that not only size is really a consideration but age as well. First lets talk about size, The cherries in my herd who produce viable eggs are all at least 10+†, with Queen Elizabeth around 13+â€, There are 7 total adult females with 5 of them constant “layersâ€. I also notice the older females usually produce more eggs, with a better fertility rate as well. ( A common trait for all torts I believe) Most of the Cherry females are 2-4 eggs at a time , but Queen is 8-10 eggs almost always. And this year 24 out of 24 hatched from her.
We had 40 total and 31 hatched ( in the last 6 months ) and gals are nesting as we type. On the redfoot side, Momma hypo is another “older†tortoise and she too is a big layer with the last clutch last year of 10.….but still only around 11†or so . Anyhow love your posts and feedback as well
JD~
PS: I too hopefully will be able to contribute valid information one day classifying this type of tortoise correctly.
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