redfoot RNS update and question

[oscar]

Im into day 15 of daily baytril shots for my red foot was told to give shots for 20 days. She ate some at first but has not ate in 12 days and does not seem any better. Her eyes are glassy and I thought by now I would see some improvement. Have her in hospital setup 86 degrees and 75 % humidity have gave her warm soakes at least three times a day.
Wondering how long I should hold out on her not eating before she starves. And at what point do I take her back to vet, having second thoughts on vet that treated her and hate to switch vets but think I am wasting time and money on one I went to. The vet mentioned that she may need to be tube fed and don't want to cause her any more trauma but don't want to wait too long.

 

[dmmj]

My RF never had an RI but I took in a russian last year with one, and you should do the full course of meds and then take it back to the vet, I did 3 vet visits and like almost 2 months of meds before she was back up to speed.

---

Also I syringe fed her baby food every night for like 2 months while she was on meds before she started eating on her own again, it was great seeing her eat on her own for the first time when she did,

 

[Maggie Cummings]

If she were my tortoise I would add baby food to her soaking water. Strained carrots is good nutrition and adds Vit A. If she doesn't drink it some nutrition soaks in thru her cloaca and some think thru the soft skin under her neck. Put her in a small container and mix one jar of baby food to enough water so that it's just above her bridge. Put a light over her so she stays warm and leave her in for 30-45 minutes. Baytril is very hard to take as it stings and makes them stop eating. I would syringe feed her too, like dmmj did and I did. I had to syringe feed Abscess Nose for 3 months before he started eating again. Obviously he had an abscessed nose and was on Baytril. But after 3 months he did start eating again. So it's your job to carry her thru this hard time receiving Baytril injections. Good luck and keep us posted...

 

[oscar]

Ok I will get some strained carrots tomorrow, when you say syringe feed her is that tube feeding or just using a syringe and place food in mouth? and then what is the best way to get her mouth open and how much should I give her?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

In my case syringe feeding is simply prying her mouth open and squirting some food inside. You want to do it without hurting her obviously. I use an orange stick, if you have a girl friend she should have one. Or use what you have, squirt some in, let her swallow and squirt some more in, etc. Using strained carrots or squash is good. Your Vet might sell you some critical Care and that's the best stuff to use. Open her mouth carefully and you'll know when she's full. Orange sticks are somewhat soft so they don't do any damage. You might want to go to a nail shop and see if they'll sell you a couple. I really like to use them because they are soft and don't cause any damage. If you're not careful you can split the beak. Good luck

 

[oscar]

I got some baby food carrots and have soaked her in warm water with it mixed in. My problem is when I have tried to syringe feed her. Every time I try to get a hold of her head to pry her mouth open she pulls into her shell. She wants nothing to do with me holding onto her head let alone pry open her mouth. Is there something I am doing wrong? When I have got a hold of her head that is in her shell I feel that damage would be done if I physically pulled her head out so I could get to her mouth. Could it be that she is not weak enough for her to let me do this so I should not syringe feed her and just keep up with the warm carrot water soakes.

 

[dmmj]

I use my 2 fingers (it is easier with 2 people) and form a V and put her head into very bottom of the V so her head could not slide back in, and then I went from there. put your first 2 fingers into a V shape, your fingertips are the top of the V just slide it's head into your fingers and slide it down to the bottom, it is gentle and you don't have to worry about it slipping back into it's shell.

 

[Madkins007]

Oscar, exactly what symptoms are you still seeing?

 

[oscar]

She still has the glassy eyes, also discharge from nose earlier today but not continually. I just checked on her and there were some bubbles out of her mouth. The discharge from nose and mouth are clear.
She has strength in her legs but does not seem nowhere as alert as she did before she got sick. not interested in food at all.
She seems to be no better or worse than she did before I started batril injections 18 days ago.
I would like to think if the baytril was going to work I would have notice some improvement by now. Three more days of batril to go and don't know at what point I should take her back to vet. And wonder what would be the next antibiotic she will get. Trying to syringe feed her so she doesn't starve.

 

[Madkins007]

OK, a few thoughts...

- You say no change- has the discharge changed in volume or color?
- The pathogen that causes Upper Respiratory Tract Disease is not very affected by Baytril or other known antibiotics. The Baytril, etc. is to fight secondary infections. That, combined with really good nursing cares and cleanliness, gives it a fighting chance to get past the infection.
- Hospital tank at 86 is a bit cool- we would usually boost about 5 degrees over normal and normal is 85.
- 3 soaks a day? What is your reasoning for that? Soaks may help recharge the bladder after urination, or encourage drinking, but does not significantly affect internal hydration levels.
- What foods are you offering? Try red, sweet things like dyed banana or strawberry

URTD (or RNS) can be a very serious, very contagious disease that is, sadly, too often fatal even with good care.

I would suggest, if you can- getting a second vet opinion, boosting temps in at least part of the tank, sterilizing everything possible, and talking to your vet about nutritional support.

 

[oscar]

The discharge is same in volume and color. I will up the temp, to 90. The vet I took her to told me to soak her two to three times a day for hydration and it would make her comfortable. 30 to 40 minutes each time. Should I cut out the soaks entirely? I have sphagnum moss and cypress mulch in her hospital setup, its helping me keep the humidity up. Should I remove it and use paper towels instead for sanitary reasons?

thanks Steve

 

[Madkins007]

Does she tolerate the soaks well? If so, probably no big deal, but if she struggles, hides, or otherwise shows signs of stress, I would cut them back a lot.

If you are using a good UVB light, it will do a lot to fight germs in the habitat. I think there are pros and cons to towels but if she gets worse, I would go to them just to get things as clean as possible around her.

 

[oscar]

She seems to just sit in the water does not seem to be stressed or move around at all when she is in the water. I will get a new uvb bulb for her. Also she is being offered strawberries, mango, squash, endive, escarole, mulberries, mushrooms, reptomin, cat food, papaya, banana. I cut it up in small pieces and offer it to her but she ignores it,

 

[Madkins007]

Not moving in the water kinda worries me. I don't like seeing apathy in a tortoise- it is generally not a positive sign.

Refusing food bothers me as well. For now, just offer sweet colorful stuff and keep track of how much you offer so you know if she is eating.

I think it is time to break out the Pediolyte (or Gatoraid) /baby food soaks to see if she will eat/drink any of it. Mix in some multivitamins, and keep the soak warm. Clean him off well afterwards.

Can you weigh her accurately? If you measure his straight-line carapace length in centimeters, we can get an idea if she is dehydrated or not- length in centimeters, cubed, times 0.191 gives us the expected minimum weight in grams. (WTcm^3 x 0.191 = WTgr)

 

[oscar]

Baytril injections have been over and there are no more bubbles from her mouth or nose. I have been soaking her for an hour or more three times a day. She seems more alert and will look around while soaking, her eyes have a clear look to them again. Have added gatorde and baby food carrots to her soakes now and then. Two times after her soakes when I place her back in her hospital setup she would go to her water,stick her head in and start drinking. so I thought I would out smart her and put the baby food carrots in her water in hospital setup. She went to water again stuck her head in and immediately pulled it out and walked away. There is a lot of strength in her legs and will have nothing to do with getting a hold of her head let alone prying her mouth open to syringe feed her.
I have measured her and she is 20 cm long carapace length and 2 lbs 15 0z in weight if I have done the calculation right I came out with 1.332.44 gm so hopefully this will help in letting me know if she is dehydrated.
thanks steve

 

[dmmj]

so not eating?

 

[Madkins007]

Donohue ratio: 20cm^3 x 0.191 = 1528gr, so that is what Dr. Susan Donohue would call the minimum weight, so your guy would be considered a little underweight, probably a little dehydrated.

 

[oscar]

Have offered her anything I can think of that is available this time of year.
Strawberry,mulberry, muskmelon, pumpkin, raspberry, soaked cat food, banana, escarole, endive, spring mix. But she doesn't even go and smell it. Its like it is not even there. I would think by now she would be pretty weak but maybe she is getting some of the baby food carrots or Gatorade into her when I am soaking her in it.

 

[exoticsdr]

this is a tort I would be seriously considering as a candidate for a esophagostomy (feeding) tube.

Antibiotics aren't always enough, especially if the tortoise (or any animal for that matter) is in an energy deficit because of anorexia (not eating). Many times, getting food into the system in sufficient quantities and getting them back into an energy surplus is enough to pull them through and make a world of difference.

doc