Russian Tortoise Breeding Problems

[acev182]

I have a 2.4 colony of Russians. The Males are 4.5 inches and the females range from 5 to 6 inches. the colony has been together for several years and there is plenty of breeding going on but no eggs. what is the secret? someone please help.
thanks

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi acev182:

Welcome to the Tortoise Forum!!

May we know your name and where you are? (Any relation to Ace Ventura?)

Do your tortoises hibernate?

Do they have lots of warm, sunny areas in the dirt for nest building?

Are they well fed?

 

[jwhite]

Hi and welcome.

We need more info. on your set-up.
Are you keeping them inside or outside?
What are the temps?
How big is your enclosure?Things like that. The more info. you give the better we can help.

Jon

 

[acev182]

they are outside 6 to 8 months a year in a 10 x 6 enclosure. I brumate them for 2 to 3 months during the winter. They are feed like little pigs, i feed them clover, dandilions, plantains and mazuri.

 

[Tom]

My friend has a similar problem with his 1.3 russian group. His live outside year round in a big enclosure with lots of caves, bushes and hiding places. They are all still a bit young, like yours are, but still they are big enough to make fertile eggs. He's tried digging up sections and using different substrates for them to lay in too. Seems like sometimes they just want to wait.

Female sulcatas can lay when they are as small as 15". Most lay for the first time at 16-17". Mine waited until she was 18". Her first year, 2009, she laid three and they were not fertile. In 2010 she laid 7 and 3 were fertile. This year she has laid three clutches so far. 12, 12, and 11. Most of them have been fertile. Her second clutch went 12 for 12. Her third clutch is still cooking. I know its a totally different species, but it illustrates the point that some female tortoises just take longer for some reason. But when they go, they will really go.

 

[chase thorn]

i have had the same problem with my sulcatas :/

 

[jwhite]

The females may be a little on the small size yet. Also what I found with my group is that if the substrate isn't just right for them to lay in they will hold their eggs. By this I mean if the soil is to dry or to wet for them they will wait. I have had them wait a few times when my substrate was a little to dry for them to get it moistened and as soon as I did they would go over and start digging. So maybe give that a try.

Jon

 

[dmmj]

at 5 or 6 inches your females are still on the small side.

 

[GBtortoises]

Tortoises can be kept together forever without sucessfully reproducing unless correct environemental conditions and the signals that "trigger" breeding take place. Many people percieve males mounting females as "breeding". Not necessarily so. Males of many species, Russians being one of the most notorious, will constantly mount females. Male tortoises (not unlike human males!) are "ready to go at it" all the time. The female (again not unlike humans!) is the one that determines when she is ready. This takes place through environmental, usually seasonal changes in temperature, light duration and intensity and other more minor factors. Most temperature climate tortoises which Russians are, require these some form of environmental change to begin the true courtship/breeding process. In fewer cases, some will breed with little to no change but that percentage is low. Some form of "conditioning" is usually necessary.

 

[Tom]

GB, would the OP's 2 to 3 month "brumation" not be sufficient for this? Do they need a longer brumation?

Or do you think the size/age of his torts might be a factor?


(For those who don't know it, GB is the resident Testudo expert here. He knows is stuff.)

 

[Jacqui]

What weight or your Russians and what type of Russian are they? I am thinking they may still be a little immature.

 

[Tom]

What weight or your Russians and what type of Russian are they? I am thinking they may still be a little immature.

I've seen some color variation on Russians (like the gorgeous Nelson), but is there more than one "type" of russian? I saw a thread on this a while back where Danny posted some subspecies, but that was followed by much debate. Obviously they come from different regions within their range, but is there much size variation? Asking because I really like the russians and want to learn more about them.

 

[GBtortoises]

Wild Russians would normally Brumate ("hibernate") much longer, but in captivity 2-3 months should be long enough to induce breeding when they awaken as long as the tortoises are actually being kept cold enough in very little to no light. Unlike some species though, Russians are accustomed to very hot, dry temperatures with full light intensity right out of "hibernation". My own actually breed best when I bring them indoors after hibernating outdoors all winter long. The opposite of what would be expected! Bringing them indoors allows me to put them under very intense lighting and heat, somewhat like they would be accustomed to in the wild. In my climate they breed more regularly by doing this since my spring weather is typically cool and damp.

I agree with the above comments from everyone that they may still be a bit small to sucessfully produce offspring.

 

[goReptiles]

GB, what is he lowest temperature you recommend leaving Russians outside during the winter brumation? I live in Georgia, and it can sometimes get cold, but I'm not sure what would ne considered too cold to leave outside.

 

[babylove6635]

my question is what is a 2.4 or 1.3 collonie mean?

 

[GBtortoises]

Well, here where I live the winter air temperatures are below zero often throughout winter and a few weeks of below zero are common in late winter. But tortoises that are properly protected are not affected by that if they have adequate insulation between them and the surface. The idea is to keep the temperatures where they are located as constant as possible. As Tom pointed out, tortoises don't truly hibernate as mammals do. True hibernaters go into a deep sleep with their respiratory and circulatory systems slowing down to survival mode. Tortoises brumate, they slow down greatly and control their functions as needed, but they are not asleep, they have the capacity to move as needed, albeit very, very slowly. This enables to go deeper as the temperature around them gets colder, or to go higher as the temperatures around them rise. How much they move during brumation depends very much on the temperatures in the early part of the process which is when the rest in their median level. If it's too warm during the early period of the brumation they will not initially go deep enough. This can be fatal later in the season when they are more sluggish and weak and must then attempt to go deeper to escape the colder temperatures. Mine initially bury themselves about 2-3 inches under the soil within their shelters which have about 6-8" of straw in them but are open to the weather on two sides so are poorly insulated at that point. I do not add any insulation at this point. Once we begin to get temperatures here consistently below 45 degrees I then add natural insulation in the form of straw on top of them. I add a mound of straw about two feet high and 5 feet in diameter, covered with plastic to keep out winter rains and melting snow. Then basically I pray for snow! the snow helps to regulate the heat loss by creating additional insulation. My Russians and Eastern Hermann's both brumate outdoors in this manner from about late October, early November all the way through late March, early April without seeing the light of day. I have some Eastern Hermann's who have never been indoors in their life! But it's not a foolproof method and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without absolutely knowing your local climate and your tortoises. Although it would seem so, you really can't just put them out there forget about them until spring. While our winter here is usually pretty consistent (and too long), we have in the past had winter thaws, warm spells and worse yet, major rain storms. I believe that more than anything, excessive ground moisture can kill them faster during brumation than colder dry temperatures. If they are well protected where they should be the temperatures will be more constant around them. But if the ground gets too wet around them in cold temperatures they're chance of survival is extremely jepordized.
I would be much less likely to attempt to hibernate (brumate) tortoises in a climate that doesn't get consistently cold enough, as I would in one that does. In a climate where the tortoises are not driven to go deep enough and stay there they are going to be more active and burn more energy during that period. Without the ability to replenish spent energy and process it as needed they will likely starve to death. What it really boils down to is knowing your local weather. Average temperatures, frequency of warm spells during winter, average winter rainfall, etc... Every locale seems to have it's own specifics. For example, 100 miles southeast of where I live, which is closer to sea level than my place, winter is far more mild and at least 4-6 weeks shorter. If you're going to hibernate tortoises outdoors you really need to know the weather in your backyard extremely well.

---

my question is what is a 2.4 or 1.3 collonie mean?

The numbers indicate the number of males, females and unsexed or juvenilles. For example 2.4 would be two males, four females. Or 2.4.5 would be two males, four females and 5 either unsexed or babies. Decades ago that method became the accepted standard of listing how many you have a given species.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

my question is what is a 2.4 or 1.3 collonie mean?

2.4 means 2 males, 4 females.
1.3 means 1 male, 3 females.

 

[Tom]

Starting a new "Pick GBs brain" thread.

Here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hibernation-for-Testudo#axzz1ZOjo8sSQ

 

[goReptiles]

Thanks GB. I will just bring them inside for winter, like usual. I was just hoping to get rid of the extra tubs in the house.

 

[GBtortoises]

"Starting a new "Pick GBs brain" thread."

My brain is pretty thick--but not necessarily in the good way! I survive more by sense than intelligence for sure!