Sand in substrate

[Tort25]

Hi I have heard many times by garden state tortoise that some sand and rocky sand is safe for tortoises as a substrate and he makes some good points like that some tortoises like russian tortoises and other tortoises live in sandy rocky areas. Another point is that he has talked to people that studied theses animals and has studied theses animals for 30 years and never had a tortoises died to impaction due to sand.
So what are you thoughts on this topic?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
There was a lengthy discussion about sand after Chris' video: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/toms-response-to-garden-state-tortoise-video.216736/

And a few good points were made:
0. Sand impactions happen (actually, tortoise can be impacted with any kind of substrate), but not many cases are documented.
1. Sands are different. Play sand is not the same same thst tortoises encounter in the wild. Generally speaking, captive settings (even outdoors) are very different.
2. Husbandry plays huge role (hydration, UV exposure, feeding spot and routine, temperatures, space).
3. Some diseases can be the primary cause of digestion and renal systems failure with sand found in autopsy being a consequence of wider underlying problem.

 

[Tort25]

Hello!
There was a lengthy discussion about sand after Chris' video: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/toms-response-to-garden-state-tortoise-video.216736/

And a few good points were made:
0. Sand impactions happen (actually, tortoise can be impacted with any kind of substrate), but not many cases are documented.
1. Sands are different. Play sand is not the same same thst tortoises encounter in the wild. Generally speaking, captive settings (even outdoors) are very different.
2. Husbandry plays huge role (hydration, UV exposure, feeding spot and routine, temperatures, space).
3. Some diseases can be the primary cause of digestion and renal systems failure with sand found in autopsy being a consequence of wider underlying problem.

Thanks for the reply I'm just so stressed in picking a substrate because I read these extremely long conversations and get next to no simple answer and I feel like 90% of the information is opinion driven and not scientific facts.

 

[zolasmum]

Thanks for the reply I'm just so stressed in picking a substrate because I read these extremely long conversations and get next to no simple answer and I feel like 90% of the information is opinion driven and not scientific facts.

I think that the best solution is just to avoid any sand - in some cases it may be fine, but why risk it !
Angie

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

It's usually not just an opinion, but personal experience and information gained from private conversations.

From your posts I see that your are building an 8x4 indoors enclosure, right? If you don't plan to make a dense planted enclosure then using potted plants and coco coir or orchid bark is probably the easiest way. Sand doesn't bring much benefit in that case. If your ambitions are to build a naturalistic arid ecosystem - then sand/loam/clay can be considered but that a lot of efforts (I think even more than with rainforest setups).

 

[zovick]

Thanks for the reply I'm just so stressed in picking a substrate because I read these extremely long conversations and get next to no simple answer and I feel like 90% of the information is opinion driven and not scientific facts.

For the record, I HAVE had a tortoise die a horrendous and very slow death resulting from a sand impaction. My advice is simply not to bother using sand in your enclosure. Why take the risk?

Cypress mulch is much easier to work with, easily obtainable, and inexpensive. I would just use that and be done with it.

 

[Tort25]

For the record, I HAVE had a tortoise die a horrendous and very slow death resulting from a sand impaction. My advice is simply not to bother using sand in your enclosure. Why take the risk?

Cypress mulch is much easier to work with, easily obtainable, and inexpensive. I would just use that and be done with it.

I am sorry to hear about your experience if you don't mind me asking how did the tortoise get impacted was it due to feeding wet tortoise diet or some other tragic event?

 

[Tom]

What Chris is espousing is the old wrong info that we work very hard to combat here. I work with many reptile vets as part of my job and hobbies. They are friends and they know of my tortoise predilections, so they tell me of their tortoise cases on a regular basis. Many tortoise die of sand impaction annually, and as Zovick described, it's just awful when it happens. This is not an opinion. This is a fact. Its really unfortunate that a person with Chris' wide ranging influence chooses to ignore reality and make fun of the people trying to prevent tortoises from coming to harm from old, outdated, incorrect practices.

What happens is that they take in some sand now and then while eating and the sand can collect in their gut and eventually cause a blockage. Because it doesn't collect in their GI tract 100% of the time does not mean that it doesn't collect there some of the time in some cases. Here is the bottom line: If you put sand in your enclosure, your tortoise might die of sand impaction some day. Its a risk. Sand is also a skin and eye irritant in some cases. If you don't put sand in your enclosure, your tortoise can never die of sand impaction. It's really that simple.

So if it is this risky, then why add sand? What is the tremendous, fantastic benefit to using sand in your enclosure? There is none. Other substrates work better anyway.

Do they encounter some types of sand in some cases in the wild? Sure they do. So what? Your enclosure is not the wild, and what happens in the wild does not necessarily happen in your enclosure.

If you want the most current, correct, experience based care info, here it is:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[zovick]

I am sorry to hear about your experience if you don't mind me asking how did the tortoise get impacted was it due to feeding wet tortoise diet or some other tragic event?

I was in the process of getting divorced and my tortoises were on loan to and being housed at the Bronx Zoo. This was a group of tortoises including 5 adult Radiated Tortoises and a lone male Ploughshare Tortoise (Astrochelys yniphora). The tortoises were moved into a crocodile exhibit which was not being used at that time. The floor of the exhibit had been covered with sand, but the keepers threw some straw over it.

The tortoises were fed daily on cafeteria trays placed on the floor of the exhibit. The Radiated Tortoises were voracious feeders and in their jostling each other about, pushed a lot of the food onto the floor areas around the trays. Once the Radiated Tortoises finished feeding, the Ploughshare Tortoise walked over and ate the food directly off the floor of the exhibit. After a few months, he began acting poorly and stopped moving.

I was told about this and immediately requested that the tortoise radiographed. The picture showed a literal "brick" of sand in the tortoise's intestine. I moved the animal back to my home and treated him with mineral oil by mouth as well as via enema for two months. Finally, the solid block of sand was passed. It was roughly 6" x 3" x 3". Note that this tortoise was a huge male, weighing over 40 lbs and measuring about 20" SCL.

He began eating again one day, and just as I thought I had saved the tortoise, he died the following day. Necropsy showed that his intestines had become necrotic due to the impaction and the resulting infection killed the tortoise.

This was a very painful and costly lesson. This Ploughshare Tortoise was the only one ever imported legally into this country by a private individual (me), and I lost him and was never able to replace the tortoise. This was one of the worst experiences of my life.

 

[Tort25]

I was in the process of getting divorced and my tortoises were on loan to and being housed at the Bronx Zoo. This was a group of tortoises including 5 adult Radiated Tortoises and a lone male Ploughshare Tortoise (Astrochelys yniphora). The tortoises were moved into a crocodile exhibit which was not being used at that time. The floor of the exhibit had been covered with sand, but the keepers threw some straw over it.

The tortoises were fed daily on cafeteria trays placed on the floor of the exhibit. The Radiated Tortoises were voracious feeders and in their jostling each other about, pushed a lot of the food onto the floor areas around the trays. Once the Radiated Tortoises finished feeding, the Ploughshare Tortoise walked over and ate the food directly off the floor of the exhibit. After a few months, he began acting poorly and stopped moving.

I was told about this and immediately requested that the tortoise radiographed. The picture showed a literal "brick" of sand in the tortoise's intestine. I moved the animal back to my home and treated him with mineral oil by mouth as well as via enema for two months. Finally, the solid block of sand was passed. It was roughly 6" x 3" x 3". Note that this tortoise was a huge male, weighing over 40 lbs and measuring about 20" SCL.

He began eating again one day, and just as I thought I had saved the tortoise, he died the following day. Necropsy showed that his intestines had become necrotic due to the impaction and the resulting infection killed the tortoise.

This was a very painful and costly lesson. This Ploughshare Tortoise was the only one ever imported legally into this country by a private individual (me), and I lost him and was never able to replace the tortoise. This was one of the worst experiences of my life.

I am sorry that that happened to you

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

It does happen, there aren’t a huge amount of examples documented on the forum, but as you can see above, personal horror storiesI did manage to find this example for you

Fecal Impaction, substrate dilemma!

Hi all, First of all, apologies my first post is not a positive one - but in need of some advice! My three year old Spur Thighed called Speckles fell ill around a week ago, his appetite had dropped, no pooping, and very lazy and lethargic which is the complete opposite to his usual self. I...

tortoiseforum.org

Also found an xray of a tortoise with a sand impaction on a much older thread


It may be considered ‘rare’, though I think it’s arguably more common that we realise, but either way there are definitely firsthand instances out there, sand doesn’t add any benefits that are worth the risk imo