Shell growing directly down into Tail

[ClydeHaver]

This sounds like really outdated information on tortoises from when the 'solution' to pyramiding was to limit food intake. I don't think the vet actually knows what they are talking about and I don't think food reduction will solve this issue. Can you post additional photos so we can get a sense of the entire tort?

Edited to add: can you share more about the tort's diet? I don't think food is the issue but if the tort is overweight (uncommon but can happen if they don't have a proper enclosure) that could be making the problem worse.

Hi,

I will post photos of Clyde soon but as we drove him about an hour total hes sleeping it off. I'll post photos in the morning, its possible im misrepresenting what the vet said, she asked for more photos of his habitat and said she will get back to me.

She did say that any trimming/shaving of his shell could lead to infection and has to be treated like a bone fracture?

In terms of diet, I feed him mixed salad, cucumber, grated carrot, dandelions, and other mixed leafy greens. Obviously i will cut down on carrot but he seems to have been fine on that diet for the last 4 years.

 

[ClydeHaver]

Hi,

I will post photos of Clyde soon but as we drove him about an hour total hes sleeping it off. I'll post photos in the morning, its possible im misrepresenting what the vet said, she asked for more photos of his habitat and said she will get back to me.

She did say that any trimming/shaving of his shell could lead to infection and has to be treated like a bone fracture?

In terms of diet, I feed him mixed salad, cucumber, grated carrot, dandelions, and other mixed leafy greens. Obviously i will cut down on carrot but he seems to have been fine on that diet for the last 4 years.

Just for recent photos of Clyde, find below. These are not up to date.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

About carrots and limiting diet: I don't think it completely lacks sense. Nutritious foods can accelerate keratin growth, while the underlying bone grows slower. In dry conditions this can result in keratin plates pressuring the bone leading to bone deformation (the well known "pyramiding"). However, the solution is not to stun the growth but to provide humid enough environment to keep new keratin soft. I can't say it better than markw84, so here is the link to correct and detailed explanation: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-cause-of-pyramiding.143520/

Substrate on the photos looks like aspen shavings, which is too dry for tortoises. And I suspect humidity in the enclosure is low.

Do you give Clyde calcium supplements? What UVB light do you use? Lack of calcium and vitamin D3 may slow down bones growth and hardening.

 

[ClydeHaver]

About carrots and limiting diet: I don't think it completely lacks sense. Nutritious foods can accelerate keratin growth, while the underlying bone grows slower. In dry conditions this can result in keratin plates pressuring the bone leading to bone deformation (the well known "pyramiding"). However, the solution is not to stun the growth but to provide humid enough environment to keep new keratin soft. I can't say it better than markw84, so here is the link to correct and detailed explanation: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-cause-of-pyramiding.143520/

Substrate on the photos looks like aspen shavings, which is too dry for tortoises. And I suspect humidity in the enclosure is low.

Do you give Clyde calcium supplements? What UVB light do you use? Lack of calcium and vitamin D3 may slow down bones growth and hardening.

Hi,

Thanks for your response,

I can confirm he has both calcuim supplement and uvb light. I'll have to check to see if supplement also has vitamin d3.

Whats the best substrate/device to induce a more humid environment?

Thanks again,

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hi,

Thanks for your response,

I can confirm he has both calcuim supplement and uvb light. I'll have to check to see if supplement also has vitamin d3.

Whats the best substrate/device to induce a more humid environment?

Thanks again,

What UVB lamp do you have? (they aren't all good, unfortunately) And what basking lamp? (some heat and light sources have desiccating effect on tortoise shell which intensifies pyramidng)

Vitamin D3 supplement is not usually needed, so I wouldn't bother at this moment.

Common suitable substrates are coco coir (aka coco peat), cypress mulch and fine grade orchid (fir) bark. To raise humidity you just need to pour water in substrate from time to time (usually, once a week).

Perhaps, you should aim for 50-70% humidity in the enclosure (this gradient happens naturally - low humidity in the basking area and higher - in the cold part). What kind of enclosure do you have? Open top or vivarium?

 

[ClydeHaver]

What UVB lamp do you have? (they aren't all good, unfortunately) And what basking lamp? (some heat and light sources have desiccating effect on tortoise shell which intensifies pyramidng)

Vitamin D3 supplement is not usually needed, so I wouldn't bother at this moment.

Common suitable substrates are coco coir (aka coco peat), cypress mulch and fine grade orchid (fir) bark. To raise humidity you just need to pour water in substrate from time to time (usually, once a week).

Perhaps, you should aim for 50-70% humidity in the enclosure (this gradient happens naturally - low humidity in the basking area and higher - in the cold part). What kind of enclosure do you have? Open top or vivarium?

Hi,

I dont use a basking lamp, just a uvb lamp, I believe its exo terra but im not 100% sure as I recently changed the bulb it may be a separate make. I bought it from Pets at Home though, ill look into getting some other substrate but I currently live quite far from any pet shops and I don't have a car. However, if you can recommend anything from Amazon that would be much appreciated.

I'm just relieved it's nothing too serious as originally I was very worried and thought he needed immediate surgery.

Diet wise, I think I will just cut out carrot and replace with mint and some more leafy greens or other fibrous foods (any recommendations I can get from a supermarket?)


Cheers

 

[ClydeHaver]

What UVB lamp do you have? (they aren't all good, unfortunately) And what basking lamp? (some heat and light sources have desiccating effect on tortoise shell which intensifies pyramidng)

Vitamin D3 supplement is not usually needed, so I wouldn't bother at this moment.

Common suitable substrates are coco coir (aka coco peat), cypress mulch and fine grade orchid (fir) bark. To raise humidity you just need to pour water in substrate from time to time (usually, once a week).

Perhaps, you should aim for 50-70% humidity in the enclosure (this gradient happens naturally - low humidity in the basking area and higher - in the cold part). What kind of enclosure do you have? Open top or vivarium?

I dont think Clyde's shell is pyramiding its just that section of the shell not any other parts.

I think the best solution as said is humidity and diet .

 

[zolasmum]

Hi,

I dont use a basking lamp, just a uvb lamp, I believe its exo terra but im not 100% sure as I recently changed the bulb it may be a separate make. I bought it from Pets at Home though, ill look into getting some other substrate but I currently live quite far from any pet shops and I don't have a car. However, if you can recommend anything from Amazon that would be much appreciated.

I'm just relieved it's nothing too serious as originally I was very worried and thought he needed immediate surgery.

Diet wise, I think I will just cut out carrot and replace with mint and some more leafy greens or other fibrous foods (any recommendations I can get from a supermarket?)


Cheers

Zola lives in Devon,and we give him watercress, pea shoots (from Morrisons only, I think) wild rocket, lambs lettuce, and radicchio (his favourite, though we have to make a long journey to get it) Most things can be found in most supermarkets - the bags of chopped salad are not very good, because they lose their vitamins quickly when chopped up - I just mix and slightly chop Zola's salad daily, and also give him
dandelion leaves. Does he like mint ? I've never tried it for Zola.
Angie

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Okay. I suppose you have an "all-in-one" lamp (mercury vapour bulb) which gives UVA/UVA and heat. These have some issues with being too drying for tortoise shell and are hard to get right basking temperatures and safe UV level at the same time.

I suggest to get an incandescent flood bulb (like Arcadia Solar Basking Floodlight) and T5 tube UVB lamp (Arcadia Desert 12%) for the basking area.

If you are in UK, you can order orchid bark from SwellReptile (they have relatively inexpensive under Swell brand). Or look for coco coir bricks on Amazon or gardening stores (yes, coco coir is 3-5 times cheaper in gardening stores than in pet shops).

Clyde has some pyramiding. So you are just in time to make improvements. Pyramiding can't be reversed but can be slowed down and turned into new smooth growth with proper humidity and lightning/heating.

 

[ClydeHaver]

Zola lives in Devon,and we give him watercress, pea shoots (from Morrisons only, I think) wild rocket, lambs lettuce, and radicchio (his favourite, though we have to make a long journey to get it) Most things can be found in most supermarkets - the bags of chopped salad are not very good, because they lose their vitamins quickly when chopped up - I just mix and slightly chop Zola's salad daily, and also give him
dandelion leaves. Does he like mint ? I've never tried it for Zola.
Angie

Apparently Mint is good for them or so im told, like with alot of stuff online theres alot of conflicting opinions. But the vet told me to use the tortoise table and mint has the greenlight soooooo. Garden mint that is.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Apparently Mint is good for them or so im told, like with alot of stuff online theres alot of conflicting opinions. But the vet told me to use the tortoise table and mint has the greenlight soooooo. Garden mint that is.

It is healthy, but not all tortoises like the strong taste and smell!

 

[TammyJ]

@Tom @zovick , what do you think should be done at this point for the tortoise? And don't you see the pyramids? It seems to be there, and I think that it could be stopped if the conditions that are causing it are corrected now, in addition to the filing down of the shell where it's cutting into the tail?

 

[_The_Beast_]

It is healthy, but not all tortoises like the strong taste and smell!

Can confirm my Russian ignores mint (and most other herbs) 😅

That said, I do not think these dietary changes are going to do much of anything to solve the shell issue shown in the photos. They also won't address the pyramiding. OP, I know you've said you don't see it and that this is likely unwelcome information, but it is really clear that there is pyramiding. Unless husbandry issues are addressed, it will continue as well.

 

[ClydeHaver]

Can confirm my Russian ignores mint (and most other herbs) 😅

That said, I do not think these dietary changes are going to do much of anything to solve the shell issue shown in the photos. They also won't address the pyramiding. OP, I know you've said you don't see it and that this is likely unwelcome information, but it is really clear that there is pyramiding. Unless husbandry issues are addressed, it will continue as well.

Hi all,

Just to address the pyramiding issues, I changed substrate (coco coir stuff is great) in order to increase humidity, I have also increased the size of his enclosure by about 20% (luckily I have a carpenter in the family) . Its not great but atleast its a start. Im looking at getting the 2 separate heating and basking lamps aswell.

Only remaining issue is the actual shell itself. Would I actually be ok to try filing this myself as keep getting conflicting info as to whether this will hurt him or not? (Not from you guys but from the internet/vet).

 

[Yvonne G]

In my opinion it needs to be cut off up high enough to (hopefully) change the growth orientation so it doesn't continue to grow inward. And I think it should be done by a vet because it's going to bleed.

 

[COmtnLady]

I missed Yvonne's post while writing this one. She's right.

That said, maybe this suggestion below is a stop gap or home remedy that could do for temporary relief.
Go ahead with the dog nail trimmer thingy you were talking about getting, with a shield cut from a milk jug or similar thick plastic (the edges of which having been melted enough to not be sharp. I'd create a couple in case one gets scarred up or starts to cut through when in use).

The dog nail trimmer is basically a Dremmel that is less powerful and won't tend to do as much damage if you nick the shield. Set him on a weighted can (like the fence post dilemma) and it might be good to have a second pair of hands to hold him steady.
As with salt in cooking, less is best. You can always go back and take another thin bit off later if it needs it. Make sure there isn't a sharp edge or point anywhere so it doesn't scratch or cut his tail afterwards.

 

[wellington]

Hi,

Thanks for your response,

I can confirm he has both calcuim supplement and uvb light. I'll have to check to see if supplement also has vitamin d3.

Whats the best substrate/device to induce a more humid environment?

Thanks again,

Is he in an aquarium? He needs to not be in an aquarium but a 4x8 foot enclosure. He needs coconut coir or orchid/fir bark fir substrate and humidity of 50%. He's been living way to dry and is the cause of pyramiding which Russians do not pyramid easily unless totally wrong conditions.
I would also find another vet. Unless the pic of the shell tail area is misleading, it looked to me like the shell was already causing damage to the tail.and should be filed. It doesn't need to be cut on my opinion and not treated like a it's worse than it it's. A filing should do the trick for now and yes, I would use antibiotic cream on it afterwards.

 

[ClydeHaver]

Hello everyone,

Again thanks for your collective help with this, I ended up buying some elastoplasts and a very thin metallic file and filing down the shell then placing a plaster over the affected area. Clyde seems to have a lot more comfort with his tail now (hes even gone back to wagging it left to right as he sometimes does). I will probably give it another file next week but I think ill give him a break as he didnt seem to enjoy the experience.

Thanks again,