shell rot help

[gianni colameco]

There are at least three forms of presentation I have seen in fungal shell rot (or fungal attack) on tortoises. What you will see on a WC Russian's carapace is different from what you will see on a CB redfoot's plastron or a leopard or sulcata that gets it on the plastron and marginals when living in the Southeast under particular conditions (very common out this way). I have also observed a fungus that adheres to the carapace without damaging it for some species under some conditions. There are probably multiple species or subspecies of fungus that can be involved. The cheesy stuff is the worst if not addressed. Can infiltrate deeply (get into the bone and even cause sepsis if left unchecked through extreme neglect by abhorrent so-called husbandry).

Carl, I do not think this is "membrane scorching" as we are going to refer to it going forward. The new growth on the marginals has the white discoloration as well, while membrane scorching is limited to the original scute surfaces. It is easier to see the range of the surface effect when the photos are viewed at full size and possibly if blown up some.

Gianni, please show us a clear photo of the whole plastron. Also, is there sphagnum (or similar) moss in the habitat? If you could provide a photo of the enclosure, that might add useful information.

 

[Baoh]

I see patches of erosion on the keratin of the plastron (I pointed out quite a few with arrows) indicative of one kind of fungal attack. Blowing up the image in Paint will make this easier to see.



There is sphagnum (or similar) moss in the habitat (encircled in yellow). This often makes things worse, as it soaks up nitrogenous waste and water and provides sustained damp contact to the keratin. That provides food and environmental encouragement to the fungus. Also, while the moss itself is not conducive to assisting the fungus directly, its acidic decomposition products encourage some types of fungus. Acidic-leaning pH tends to encourage fungal growth in general.

If you could provide a photo of the enclosure, that might add useful information.

My recommendations are to clean out the substrate and remove the moss. Lightly scrub the surface of the animal's shell with chlorhexidine solution and a soft-bristle toothbrush (one intended for children may be softer). Then apply clotrimazole ointment after the chlorhexidine has dried. There are several ways to treat shell fungus and this is only one method among those. You may want to select a new substrate.

 

[gianni colameco]

I see patches of erosion on the keratin of the plastron (I pointed out quite a few with arrows) indicative of one kind of fungal attack. Blowing up the image in Paint will make this easier to see.

View attachment 224960

There is sphagnum (or similar) moss in the habitat (encircled in yellow). This often makes things worse, as it soaks up nitrogenous waste and water and provides sustained damp contact to the keratin. That provides food and environmental encouragement to the fungus. Also, while the moss itself is not conducive to assisting the fungus directly, its acidic decomposition products encourage some types of fungus. Acidic-leaning pH tends to encourage fungal growth in general.

If you could provide a photo of the enclosure, that might add useful information.

My recommendations are to clean out the substrate and remove the moss. Lightly scrub the surface of the animal's shell with chlorhexidine solution and a soft-bristle toothbrush (one intended for children may be softer). Then apply clotrimazole ointment after the chlorhexidine has dried. There are several ways to treat shell fungus and this is only one method among those. You may want to select a new substrate.

how often should you apply it

 

[Baoh]

It lasts for a bit, but wears off as well. Maybe every other day or every third day for the ointment. Kind of "work it into" the surface a bit (keep spreading it around so that it gets into crevices and has good coverage without looking like a mess). I would try to soak less if the animal will drink from a dish during this time just so that it will consume less of the ointment incidentally during soaks. Antifungals tend to be unkind to the liver. It will not kill your animal if you soak it before it is finished being treated. Since it has a history of erosion, it will not hurt to do a prophylactic treatment every couple of weeks just to thwart recurrence (although the environment is the main thing to consider).

Also, as a novel thought, I wonder if springtails in the cage might help prevent fungal attack. They tend to consume spores and hyphae from fungi. Not saying that will help, but it is a neat idea.

 

[gianni colameco]

how sure

It lasts for a bit, but wears off as well. Maybe every other day or every third day for the ointment. Kind of "work it into" the surface a bit (keep spreading it around so that it gets into crevices and has good coverage without looking like a mess). I would try to soak less if the animal will drink from a dish during this time just so that it will consume less of the ointment incidentally during soaks. Antifungals tend to be unkind to the liver. It will not kill your animal if you soak it before it is finished being treated. Since it has a history of erosion, it will not hurt to do a prophylactic treatment every couple of weeks just to thwart recurrence (although the environment is the main thing to consider).

Also, as a novel thought, I wonder if springtails in the cage might help prevent fungal attack. They tend to consume spores and hyphae from fungi. Not saying that will help, but it is a neat idea.

how sure are you that my totrtoise has some sort of fungal or bacterial infection

 

[Baoh]

I will answer your question with a question. Do you have another more likely explanation for why there are so many eroded areas on the plastron of the animal? You can see the flaking material on the undersides of the posterior marginal scutes as well.

 

[gianni colameco]

I will answer your question with a question. Do you have another more likely explanation for why there are so many eroded areas on the plastron of the animal? You can see the flaking material on the undersides of the posterior marginal scutes as well.

i really don't know much but i was just wondering if you could give me a percentage of how sure you were before i go adding these antiseptic to my tort, the other ppl on the thread made it seem like there was no way it was fungal, but i have no idea just trying to get opposing points of view, but you seem pretty well versed on the subject

 

[Yvonne G]

Even if your tortoise doesn't have shell rot, the anti fungal treatment is not harmful to the tortoise.

 

[cdmay]

Looks like it. Did it hatch out with it or develop it soon after hatching (days to a few weeks)? That is usually when we see the membrane scorch Carl and I are referencing. It takes a good while to wear/fade away.

Tangentially, unscrupulous people have even tried to pass those animals off as morphs in the past to try to prey on unsuspecting buyers. More common in the slider market for that, although I have seen it happen with redfoots once or twice.

Well said/explained

 

[cdmay]

I see patches of erosion on the keratin of the plastron (I pointed out quite a few with arrows) indicative of one kind of fungal attack. Blowing up the image in Paint will make this easier to see.

View attachment 224960

There is sphagnum (or similar) moss in the habitat (encircled in yellow). This often makes things worse, as it soaks up nitrogenous waste and water and provides sustained damp contact to the keratin. That provides food and environmental encouragement to the fungus. Also, while the moss itself is not conducive to assisting the fungus directly, its acidic decomposition products encourage some types of fungus. Acidic-leaning pH tends to encourage fungal growth in general.

If you could provide a photo of the enclosure, that might add useful information.

My recommendations are to clean out the substrate and remove the moss. Lightly scrub the surface of the animal's shell with chlorhexidine solution and a soft-bristle toothbrush (one intended for children may be softer). Then apply clotrimazole ointment after the chlorhexidine has dried. There are several ways to treat shell fungus and this is only one method among those. You may want to select a new substrate.

I've observed the same thing in tortoises raised on beds of spahgnum moss. Long term it creates an almost 'burn like' staining.
Or etching.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I've observed the same thing in tortoises raised on beds of spahgnum moss. Long term it creates an almost 'burn like' staining.
Or etching.

Is this from the moss, the moisture contacting the shell in the moss or perhaps the acid in the urine that is saturated in the moss?

 

[Redfool]

In your photos you can see that this is only on its “time of hatch” and not on growth part of scute. In the egg there is an inner membrane. If hatchling is not kept wet while hatching this can dry to the shell and be very difficult to remove. This dried membrane can also cause the shell wrinkles I’ve seen in other threads by not letting the carapace stretch out after hatching. This is why I mist hatchlings from when they pip to completed hatch and clean thoroughly after.

 

[gianni colameco]

Even if your tortoise doesn't have shell rot, the anti fungal treatment is not harmful to the tortoise.

so i can apply it multiple days in a row