Sick Galapagos Tortoise

[Turtle Love]

I am pretty sure I just read a discussion on VIN regarding your tortoise. The vet was pretty perplexed but hypoalbuminemia and hypoprotinemia seemed to be the primary concern as well as elevated blood sugar. There did not seem to be a consensus as to a treatment plan other than diet change and antibiotics. Have you ever had her on enrofloxacin? I think a trip back to the vet school as soon as possible is your best bet.

Thank you. What is VIN? Would I have access to it or would I need to be a vet? Very interested in what you are telling me. I will do research. I forgot to mention that her mouth has slime in it and she drools somewhat which must indicate something but I don't know what. I agree whole heartedly about getting her back to the vet which is what I have wanted to do. But my better half isn't willing. He just can't take it anymore. We have spent so much money on her and we just don't have anything left. That's why I'm on this forum looking for answers. I don't want her to die. I'm trying to keep her alive long enough for my better half to have a change of heart. I have never had her on enrofloxacin. I will look that up too.

 

[Turtle Love]

Are the leaves on the ground oak tree leaves ? Oak is toxic to tortoises both the leaves and acorns. Just a thought to add to the differential. I still think a trip to UF should be made as soon as you can. I don't know if Elliot Jacobsen still practices or if he retired but he is probably the best reptile vet in the world and he has run the exotic vet program for as long as I can remember. So at UF your girl is in good hands.

Wow. I didn't know oak leaves and acorns were toxic! Yes, the ground is COVERED with them. OMG. Thank you! I think squirrels eat the acorns but maybe they aren't toxic for mammals. Dr. Heard is the head of the department at UF now.

 

[KarenSoCal]

Wow! Maybe the problem has been found!

Just googled...acorns can cause kidney problems!

 

[Turtle Love]

@MKNOX - Do you have experience with Galapagos tortoises?

Thank you for trying to find help. Everyone on this thread is so concerned and helpful! Comforting! Makes me feel like I can find the answer with all these suggestions. Gives me hope. Again, thank you.

 

[Turtle Love]

We would be looking for elevated uric acid levels for kidney failure. I looked at your pictures and she does look goitered but that doesn't mesh with how sick she is. You haven't given her injectable vitamin A, or ivermectin have you? Both can cause symptoms similar to hers. Another consideration would be systemic sepsis resulting in renal or liver disease. Has she had diarrhea??? Very important question.

I just now found this post. Will go thru her records to see what her latest Uric acid level was and let you know. No, I have never given injectable vitamin A or ivermectin. As mentioned in a previous response, she DID have systemic septicemia 7 years ago. She was on sulfameth/trimethoprim 800/160mg, 2 tabs every other day for one and a half to two years. Her history is the reason for my concern about renal failure. I have given her an all-natural multivitamin on rare occasion but she usually spits them out. Also calcium supplement on rare occasion which I forgot to mention in an earlier response. She did have diarrhea the last time she swelled up last summer. She hasn't had it this time but nothing much comes out of her when she isn't eating. I can still manage to get her to drink though. Another member told me that oak leaves and acorns are toxic. I didn't know! All my tortoises eat them! Could this be part of the problem?

 

[Turtle Love]

Wow! Maybe the problem has been found!

Just googled...acorns can cause kidney problems!

Oh wow! I had never heard that they were toxic before coming on this forum. Thank you for googling it! Wow! If I can keep her alive until my better half hopefully changes his mind and helps me get her to a vet I will be sure to tell the vet about this. All my pens are COVERED with acorns and oak leaves. Also maple and camphor leaves. Geez, I had no idea. THANK YOU!

 

[MKNOX]

Turtle Love , I would bet her systemic septicemia never fully resolved. It is very common for giant tortoise to have long term low grade sepsis with flare ups. Intestinal amoebensis is a leading cause of it and metronidazole and sulfa drugs are poor choices for some of the more virulent strains. She really needs to see a vet ASAP. I know you say your better half is resistant but she is going to die if not treated, and treated soon by a competent exotics vet. Please get him to reconsider, she is less than 1/4 of her expected life span and with care should live to be at least 75-80 years old.

 

[TammyJ]

Really, really hope something can be done to save her!!! Definitely some large, long, warm soaks and take her out of the oak leaves/acorns situation!
All the very best with getting her back to the vet! Please do keep us informed. Such a wonderful, precious animal.

 

[NorCal tortoise guy]

I'd think a call to Sam at Florida iguana might offer fresh insight he is a very helpful guy and has seen a lot in his time.

 

[Olddog]

Female, 25 yrs. Entire body swollen, worse in neck. She won't move or eat for 3 days. Same problem 6 months ago. Vet at University of FL in Gainesville thought low blood protein caused by inability of protein to pass thru gut into bloodstream causing body to compensate by leaking fluid. Flagyl helped but 6 months later problem returned. I'm wondering if it could be renal failure but don't know why vet didn't suggest renal problem. Flagyl isn't helping this time. She is very sick. Can anyone help?

Sorry not to have responded sooner but have been busy, not checked Email, nor signed into forum in several days.


I am not a veterinarian, and nothing said should be construed as veterinary advice of any form or fashion. I suspect I was told about this animal in the spring or early summer from a friend who was called about this animal which had been seen at a UG clinic. At the time bloodwork was not complete.


From examination of your photos, it would appear your tortoise is showing symptoms consistent with the syndrome I labeled “RGS” for discussion purposes in the “How Fast Should We Grow Giant Tortoises…” thread. Usually labs are normal or non-specific and thyroid studies are felt to be normal. Unfortunately, many Galapagos tortoises raised in this country have had similar problems when not raised primarily on grass or when supplemented with tortoise pellets. Young Galaps will eat and grow extremely rapidly if given daily easily digestible foods to satiety. High crude fiber diets appear to be beneficial if not essential. Whatever the etiology..


Bottom line: Water and Crude Fiber


In my limited experience, the three Galapagos tortoises which have demonstrated improvement from this multiple organ, edematous condition have shared conditions leading to improvement. The most important common factor is daily access to warm water in which to soak, sometimes many hours a day. They may construct a mud wallow full of water in a sunny spot and spend most of their time in same, day and night, ,..much more time than a tortoise will normally soak. In another case about which I have been told, the keeper took the edematous tortoise to a pool/pond for swimming daily. I am told the tortoise had documented weight loss with reduction in edema. Sadly, the keper’s supervisor ordered the pool soakings to cease and the tortoise ultimately perished. This occurred at a well know tortoise center. I have also been told of a case in Europe where soaking was also key to improvement. Except for personal experience with the one failing tortoise sent to us, the two tortoises mentioned above have not been seen by me, and the information is second hand. My direct experience with this is limited to one failing tortoise sent to our facility because there was nothing felt to lose.


Initially the failing tortoise sent to our facility spend days in the water. She also had room for exercise, sun, etc. as you undoubtedly supply. Depending on your weather it may be difficult to achieve a warm enough soaking area. (At one time I kept a pair of Galapagos in a large plastic covered greenhouse contagious with a heated night shed during cooler months.) Perhaps you could utilize some form of temporary greenhouse to provide heat for a soaking pond. In my opinion, soaking is essential, deeper sometimes preferred over shallow. Perhaps some of this water effect is hydrostatic. Perhaps there is some colonic diffusion?


Grasses only!with perhaps rare supplementation with something like Purina senior horse feed for trace elements, etc. IMHO, the secret appears to include a necessity for high crude fiber. Virtually no produce, Masuri, etc. If given same, the tortoise will almost immediately worsen. I moved the tortoise in our care to another enclosure without a pond for 4 weeks while working in their normal enclosure with a pond and tortoise made mud wallows. In this short period, she become more edematous although still moving better than initially. She is now back with her pond, mud wallows, and better grass.


With soakings over time you may be able to document some weight loss and reduction of edema. In our case, exercise tolerance/movement improved and quality of life seemed to improve. To my knowledge, no one knows if the associated cardiomyopathy, etc. is reversible. If it is, it likely is very slow to heal. Video of the tortoise with this type of condition sent to us and treated with “Tough Love” can be viewed in the “How Fast..” thread.

We received one tortoise with the scutes off the plastron. This was likely due to sleeping on a heat source. The scutes have never regrown.


I will pm you with a phone number should you wish to discuss. Again, I am not a veterinarian so take this for what it is.

 

[mark1]

you mention cardiomyopathy , are diuretics and ace inhibitors ever used in tortoises ?

 

[Olddog]

you mention cardiomyopathy , are diuretics and ace inhibitors ever used in tortoises ?

Currently the evidence based recommendations suggests ACE inhibitors and one of three long acting Beta Blockers are effective in improving the EF in HF associated with CM. Diuretics are primarily used for symptomatic treatment and may or may not help improve the EF.

I have no idea if they are being used clinically with tortoises.

 

[MKNOX]

Sorry not to have responded sooner but have been busy, not checked Email, nor signed into forum in several days.


I am not a veterinarian, and nothing said should be construed as veterinary advice of any form or fashion. I suspect I was told about this animal in the spring or early summer from a friend who was called about this animal which had been seen at a UG clinic. At the time bloodwork was not complete.


From examination of your photos, it would appear your tortoise is showing symptoms consistent with the syndrome I labeled “RGS” for discussion purposes in the “How Fast Should We Grow Giant Tortoises…” thread. Usually labs are normal or non-specific and thyroid studies are felt to be normal. Unfortunately, many Galapagos tortoises raised in this country have had similar problems when not raised primarily on grass or when supplemented with tortoise pellets. Young Galaps will eat and grow extremely rapidly if given daily easily digestible foods to satiety. High crude fiber diets appear to be beneficial if not essential. Whatever the etiology..


Bottom line: Water and Crude Fiber


In my limited experience, the three Galapagos tortoises which have demonstrated improvement from this multiple organ, edematous condition have shared conditions leading to improvement. The most important common factor is daily access to warm water in which to soak, sometimes many hours a day. They may construct a mud wallow full of water in a sunny spot and spend most of their time in same, day and night, ,..much more time than a tortoise will normally soak. In another case about which I have been told, the keeper took the edematous tortoise to a pool/pond for swimming daily. I am told the tortoise had documented weight loss with reduction in edema. Sadly, the keper’s supervisor ordered the pool soakings to cease and the tortoise ultimately perished. This occurred at a well know tortoise center. I have also been told of a case in Europe where soaking was also key to improvement. Except for personal experience with the one failing tortoise sent to us, the two tortoises mentioned above have not been seen by me, and the information is second hand. My direct experience with this is limited to one failing tortoise sent to our facility because there was nothing felt to lose.


Initially the failing tortoise sent to our facility spend days in the water. She also had room for exercise, sun, etc. as you undoubtedly supply. Depending on your weather it may be difficult to achieve a warm enough soaking area. (At one time I kept a pair of Galapagos in a large plastic covered greenhouse contagious with a heated night shed during cooler months.) Perhaps you could utilize some form of temporary greenhouse to provide heat for a soaking pond. In my opinion, soaking is essential, deeper sometimes preferred over shallow. Perhaps some of this water effect is hydrostatic. Perhaps there is some colonic diffusion?


Grasses only!with perhaps rare supplementation with something like Purina senior horse feed for trace elements, etc. IMHO, the secret appears to include a necessity for high crude fiber. Virtually no produce, Masuri, etc. If given same, the tortoise will almost immediately worsen. I moved the tortoise in our care to another enclosure without a pond for 4 weeks while working in their normal enclosure with a pond and tortoise made mud wallows. In this short period, she become more edematous although still moving better than initially. She is now back with her pond, mud wallows, and better grass.


With soakings over time you may be able to document some weight loss and reduction of edema. In our case, exercise tolerance/movement improved and quality of life seemed to improve. To my knowledge, no one knows if the associated cardiomyopathy, etc. is reversible. If it is, it likely is very slow to heal. Video of the tortoise with this type of condition sent to us and treated with “Tough Love” can be viewed in the “How Fast..” thread.

We received one tortoise with the scutes off the plastron. This was likely due to sleeping on a heat source. The scutes have never regrown.


I will pm you with a phone number should you wish to discuss. Again, I am not a veterinarian so take this for what it is.

Excellent post. I am happy to see someone with experience in this condition respond

 

[Bee62]

2 weeks after I got her 8 years ago, her bottom shell began falling off. And not just the shell, but a layer of hard porous material that appeared to be bone. Breeders told me nothing to worry about and she acted healthy. A year later she got very sick - systemic toxemia, severe anemia, and low blood protein but no swelling. Exotic pet specialist in Tampa put her on sulfameth/trimethoprim 800/160, 2 tabs every other day and kept her on it for about 2 years, testing her blood every few months for harmful reactions. We also took her to Marathon in the Keys for Dr. Mader to look at her shell. He thought something had damaged the shell but it was not progressive. She did great for 7 years until the swelling, sickness, and totally liquid stools last summer at which time we took her to UF. Lab work at that time showed extreme amount of bacteria and Protozoa (an extremely small strange Protozoa visable only under high powered microscope. Pathologist unable to identify the type). Vet put her on metroNIDAZOLE 500 mg, 4 1/2 tabs every 48 hours. After 3 weeks without improvement and fearing she would die any minute, I switched her back to the sulfameth/trimethoprim. Almost immediate improvement - she began eating, moving, and stools became firmer. But no improvement with swelling. Took her back to UF where after severe chastisement for changing her meds, the vet put her back on the Flagyl for 30 days and told us to let her eat only grass, weeds, hay and a little tortoise chow instead of the greens and veggies we had been feeding. He also had us change from peanut hay to orchard hay. The swelling subsided except for the bulge at her throat. But that too grew smaller and softer. Now, it's huge and hard again. She lives in her house which is kept at 85 degrees with an electric oil radiator-type heater. She has 2 pens to alternate between, each 1/8 acre for grazing and 2 automatic waterers.
As you said, goiter would not make her this sick. I'm worried about renal failure because of the amount and duration of antibiotics. They were necessary and saved her life for 7 years, but may be killing her now via renal failure. Thank you so much for your concern and willingness to help.

Hello! A goiter does not make a tortoise sick because it is a sign for a severe sickness ! A goiter is often seen on aldabra or galapagos tortoises. These species are living on islands with salty water around. This salty waters contains iodine as well and it seems that these torts need iodine.
Please read the thread I linked you below attentively. At the end we speak about iodine and how important it is for Galapagos and Aldabra tortoises.
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...t-should-we-grow-long-lived-tortoises.168723/

 

[Turtle Love]

Turtle Love , I would bet her systemic septicemia never fully resolved. It is very common for giant tortoise to have long term low grade sepsis with flare ups. Intestinal amoebensis is a leading cause of it and metronidazole and sulfa drugs are poor choices for some of the more virulent strains. She really needs to see a vet ASAP. I know you say your better half is resistant but she is going to die if not treated, and treated soon by a competent exotics vet. Please get him to reconsider, she is less than 1/4 of her expected life span and with care should live to be at least 75-80 years old.

Awesome information about the sepsis! Thank you! I wonder if my vet knows this. Dutchess seemed fine for 7 years after her initial septicemia. Is 7 years too long of a gap in time for it to be recurrent sepsis? (Although she was on the sulfa drug for almost 2 years during that time.) Also, she didn't swell up back then. She did great on the sulfa drug at that time. But if underlying cause that you mention wasn't cured by the sulfa drug, then she needs something different. The UF vet 6 months ago didn't think it was septicemia. But septicemia is hard to diagnose isn't it? If it IS septicemia, can you tell me a class of drugs that would be better. The more I know, the more I will be able to figure out if my vet is suggesting the correct treatment. Many vets don't really know that much about galaps as far as abnormal range of test values. There aren't many baseline studies for vets to refer to. Thank you again for the info. Now, I am going to look up some of the words you used so I can see if they relate to any of the previous findings such as the Protozoa and bacteria found in her stools. Thank you again so very much. And yes, I will continue to work on my better half. I will show him your messages. If I can persuade him to help me save her one more time, maybe I can talk him into bringing her to YOU.

 

[Turtle Love]

Hello! A goiter does not make a tortoise sick because it is a sign for a severe sickness ! A goiter is often seen on aldabra or galapagos tortoises. These species are living on islands with salty water around. This salty waters contains iodine as well and it seems that these torts need iodine.
Please read the thread I linked you below attentively. At the end we speak about iodine and how important it is for Galapagos and Aldabra tortoises.
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...t-should-we-grow-long-lived-tortoises.168723/

Hi! Thank you so much for your response. I have been giving my baby ground kelp granules. Not sure it's enough iodine though. Tried giving her liquid food-grade iodine. Nothing will disguise the taste of it. She spits it out and gets very upset, almost traumatized. I'm scared of adding more stress by doing something she hates so much. If she can be saved one more time, I will start getting real kelp seaweed for her. I have saved the article you provided. Been up all nite doing research so need some sleep but will read it as soon as I wake up. I'm getting so much great information in this forum. It gives me hope. Thank you

 

[Turtle Love]

Really, really hope something can be done to save her!!! Definitely some large, long, warm soaks and take her out of the oak leaves/acorns situation!
All the very best with getting her back to the vet! Please do keep us informed. Such a wonderful, precious animal.

Thank you so much. I agree, such a wonderful precious animal. I think of them as a miracle of nature. And my baby is so sweet and affectionate! She is safe from the leaves right now because she can't walk off her porch. Although it would help, I can't soak her because she won't walk and I can't lift her. It seems like a 225 lbs. tortoise is the heaviest 225 lbs. a human will ever lift, lol! I'm going to show my better half all these messages. I understand his concern about all the money she has cost, only to get sick again. Men feel that burden. But I'm a woman so I don't care about the money. I just want to save her.

 

[Bee62]

@Turtle Love

What do you feed your tortoise ? Do you feed often kale ?
Does she eats fruits ? You can put iodine pills in a fruit she likes. The pills are very small.

 

[Turtle Love]

Sorry not to have responded sooner but have been busy, not checked Email, nor signed into forum in several days.


I am not a veterinarian, and nothing said should be construed as veterinary advice of any form or fashion. I suspect I was told about this animal in the spring or early summer from a friend who was called about this animal which had been seen at a UG clinic. At the time bloodwork was not complete.


From examination of your photos, it would appear your tortoise is showing symptoms consistent with the syndrome I labeled “RGS” for discussion purposes in the “How Fast Should We Grow Giant Tortoises…” thread. Usually labs are normal or non-specific and thyroid studies are felt to be normal. Unfortunately, many Galapagos tortoises raised in this country have had similar problems when not raised primarily on grass or when supplemented with tortoise pellets. Young Galaps will eat and grow extremely rapidly if given daily easily digestible foods to satiety. High crude fiber diets appear to be beneficial if not essential. Whatever the etiology..


Bottom line: Water and Crude Fiber


In my limited experience, the three Galapagos tortoises which have demonstrated improvement from this multiple organ, edematous condition have shared conditions leading to improvement. The most important common factor is daily access to warm water in which to soak, sometimes many hours a day. They may construct a mud wallow full of water in a sunny spot and spend most of their time in same, day and night, ,..much more time than a tortoise will normally soak. In another case about which I have been told, the keeper took the edematous tortoise to a pool/pond for swimming daily. I am told the tortoise had documented weight loss with reduction in edema. Sadly, the keper’s supervisor ordered the pool soakings to cease and the tortoise ultimately perished. This occurred at a well know tortoise center. I have also been told of a case in Europe where soaking was also key to improvement. Except for personal experience with the one failing tortoise sent to us, the two tortoises mentioned above have not been seen by me, and the information is second hand. My direct experience with this is limited to one failing tortoise sent to our facility because there was nothing felt to lose.


Initially the failing tortoise sent to our facility spend days in the water. She also had room for exercise, sun, etc. as you undoubtedly supply. Depending on your weather it may be difficult to achieve a warm enough soaking area. (At one time I kept a pair of Galapagos in a large plastic covered greenhouse contagious with a heated night shed during cooler months.) Perhaps you could utilize some form of temporary greenhouse to provide heat for a soaking pond. In my opinion, soaking is essential, deeper sometimes preferred over shallow. Perhaps some of this water effect is hydrostatic. Perhaps there is some colonic diffusion?


Grasses only!with perhaps rare supplementation with something like Purina senior horse feed for trace elements, etc. IMHO, the secret appears to include a necessity for high crude fiber. Virtually no produce, Masuri, etc. If given same, the tortoise will almost immediately worsen. I moved the tortoise in our care to another enclosure without a pond for 4 weeks while working in their normal enclosure with a pond and tortoise made mud wallows. In this short period, she become more edematous although still moving better than initially. She is now back with her pond, mud wallows, and better grass.


With soakings over time you may be able to document some weight loss and reduction of edema. In our case, exercise tolerance/movement improved and quality of life seemed to improve. To my knowledge, no one knows if the associated cardiomyopathy, etc. is reversible. If it is, it likely is very slow to heal. Video of the tortoise with this type of condition sent to us and treated with “Tough Love” can be viewed in the “How Fast..” thread.

We received one tortoise with the scutes off the plastron. This was likely due to sleeping on a heat source. The scutes have never regrown.


I will pm you with a phone number should you wish to discuss. Again, I am not a veterinarian so take this for what it is.

Oh, GREAT response! Thank you! You are EXACTLY RIGHT! Vets and pathologists interpret lab tests as "normal" but no way to know what normal IS, and acknowledges some things don't manifest in lab work. So diagnosis and treatment seem to be experimental in many cases. Also right about the crude fiber. Vet told us to stop giving her produce. Let her eat only natural food, i.e. Hay, weeds, grass. But nothing grows this time of year so she would get only hay which she won't eat right now. UF vet said also chow, but Blue Pearl vet said none or very little chow. And you are the second person on this forum that is familiar with my tortoise. Is she famous, lol? She has been seen by Dr. Lightfoot in Tampa (several times), Dr. Heard at UF (several times), Dr. Mader in the Keys and Dr. Funk with a team from Arizona who was doing a study on galaps. Once in a blue moon, a vet can be found that really knows his stuff with galaps, or at least is aware of all the possible things that could be causing illness. Other than those rare heaven-sent vets, it seems that people who actually have first-hand experience raising them often know more about them than vets do. So your knowledge is very much appreciated. With respect to soaking, she won't walk and I can't lift her. But she slides herself out onto her ramp to get in the sun. If I dig a hole at the end of her ramp and fill it with warm water, maybe I could slide her down the ramp so she could soak. I can keep the water warm but I'm concerned about the cold air. Hopefully, she will slide herself back up the ramp when the warm sun moves off her. Definitely worth considering. Also want to ask if you have ever seen a lack of iodine make a Galap this sick? When she swelled up last summer and was very sick, she also had totally liquid stools. For 2 weeks I thought she was constipated because there was no poop in her pen. Instead, it was all liquid and soaked into the sand. But at that time, there were other issues. Extreme amount of bacteria and Protozoa in her stool, which means also in her gut I assume. Thank you again SO MUCH for taking time to respond and share your knowledge and experience. So many concerned and knowledgeable tortoise lovers here on the forum. Will keep everyone informed of progress and decisions to be made. Thanks again.

 

[Turtle Love]

@Turtle Love

What do you feed your tortoise ? Do you feed often kale ?
Does she eats fruits ? You can put iodine pills in a fruit she likes. The pills are very small.

Hi. We had been feeding produce, hay and chow for years. But last summer when she got sick the vet said hay, grass, weeds, cactus - only foods that are natural for her with high fiber. With respect to iodine, the vet at the University of Florida told us the exact kind he wanted her to have because it comes in different forms and not all forms can be absorbed and utilized by the body. Hence, I've got this particular type that seems to traumatize her no matter how I try to disguise the flavor. I've tried hiding it in all kinds of fruit, even though she really shouldn't have fruit. But she gags, spits it out, and won't speak to me for a week afterwards, lol. I wish it was available in pill form. Have only fed kale on rare occasion. Have read that it's not good for them but it seems many people feed it with no problems. And when I read all the foods they shouldn't have, the only thing left is grass, weeds, hay and cactus.