Sick or trying to hibernate?

[MeRalf]

Hello, everyone! :shy:
I am new in this forum, sorry if such kind of a question has already been posted before (although I couldn't find anything similar).

So I have a Russian tortoise named Ralf. He is about 5 years old and I have him since July. During the summertime he was eating well (cabbage is his favorite, but he ate also egg white, lettuce, rocket salad, marrow and all kinds of leaf salad,pears are the only fruits that he loved). I took him to vet to check the worms and to get some vitamins. As I live in Latvia (Eastern Europe), it gets cold in here very soon and approximately by the end of September he stopped eating. I decided not to hibernate him this year and put a ceramic heater in his enclosure (he also has the uvb light) and both are turned on 8-10 hours a day. It is warm enough in his enclosure, especially under the heater, but Ralf seems not to like the warmth and he only wants to sleep. The problem is, he hasn't eaten since the beginning of the October, he sleeps all the time, he only wakes up for 1-2 hours in mid-day just to walk around a little bit, but nothing more (no eating or drinking). I don't know what to do, is this a normal behavior during the cold months of the year or is he sick and I should take him to vet? I bath him every day, his stomach should be empty (although I gave him an egg white a week ago and he took few bites and hasn't pooped yet).I used to add vitamins with calcium to his food, so it shouldn't be a lack of vitamins. His enclosure is as big as I can put in my small apartment - 80 x 80 cm, it is made of wood and stands on the ground. Substrate is river sand plus coconut fibre. Maybe it's too dark in his enclosure as the only light is from UVB?
What would you suggest me to do? I am really worried about my Ralf.

Thank you very much for reading!
I will try to add some pictures of the enclosure

 

[cherylim]

If I were you, I would cut the egg white from your tortoise's diet completely. It's not a natural part of their diet.

I'd also say you're leaving the light on for too short a time, particularly for winter as the nights draw in. 12-14 hours would be better.

I'm assuming you got the size of your enclosure wrong on your first post?

 

[ascott]

Ditto...in addition, what are the temps on the hot side, middle and cool side?

 

[lynnedit]

agree with above.
1. increase the light duration to 12 to 14 hours per day. Sometimes this is all it takes.
2. His diet should be greens/weeds. Rare fruit as a treat only, no more than once per month. no egg white (good for people, not torts).
3. using an accurate thermometer (digital with a wire probe?), tell us the temps on the 3 sides mentioned. This is very important, because if he can't cool off (they need a hot/basking area and a cool area too), they will bury themselves, this is called estivating. They do it in the wild in the heat of summer.
4. continue to soak daily.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Relevant thread:
"They're forcing my hand..."

 

[MeRalf]

If I were you, I would cut the egg white from your tortoise's diet completely. It's not a natural part of their diet.

I'd also say you're leaving the light on for too short a time, particularly for winter as the nights draw in. 12-14 hours would be better.

I'm assuming you got the size of your enclosure wrong on your first post?

It's 31,5 inches, I wrote it in centimeters,sorry
About egg white...My vet said that in nature they do eat some products coming from animals like birds' eggs and sth like that time to time (not regularry) to get some protein. By this time when he hasn't eaten anything I gave him a piece of boiled egg white and he had few bites, it surprised me because besides that he didn't eat anything I have him.
Thank you for the advice about the lightening, I will keep it on for a longer time, but he sleeps in his hide box in the dark anyway!
Than you very much

 

[MeRalf]

Hi again, sorry for not replying to your posts, I just received my thermometer and here's the temps. In the cool side (where he is sleeping right now) it's 68F, in the middle it's 73F and under the ceramic heater it's 86F. The enclosure is quite big and opened, so it is really not possible to heat it all up (or even half of it) to the right temps, so he probably is too cold. He hasn't waken up at all for three days now, I am really worried. As I said, he hasn't eaten since the beginning of October, that is what worries me the most. He doesn't like basking under the heater, he is just looking for a cooler place to sleep, when I soak him, he is scratching the walls of his "bath" and wants to go out after 3 minutes (the water temps are really OK). I have one idea what I could try, I really would appreciate some advices if my idea could work. I have a small terrarium (22.8 x 15.7 x 15.7 (height)) which I could put right next to radiator, plus put the same ceramic heater in and of course, the UVB. It would be very warm and light, as I also have a nice cover for this terrarium to keep the heat in. The problem is that this terrarium is much smaller. What would you suggest? I really don't want to put him in a fridge, as I have him since summer, it's too risky. Thank you very much for reading and replying!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Gunta:

Is your habitat on the floor? It might help to raise it up off the floor. You can also get a piece of used plywood and partially cover the habitat to keep the warmth inside. On my smaller indoor habitats I use aluminum foil to cover. You can put the foil right over the light with no danger of fire.

You just might have to allow him to have a mini-hibernation. Go ahead and put him into a cool place covered with shredded newspaper and leave him alone for a couple of weeks. At the end of that time, soak him in warm water and put him back into his habitat. But you MUST make him think it is now summer, with longer, warmer days.

 

[MeRalf]

Hi Gunta:

Is your habitat on the floor? It might help to raise it up off the floor. You can also get a piece of used plywood and partially cover the habitat to keep the warmth inside. On my smaller indoor habitats I use aluminum foil to cover. You can put the foil right over the light with no danger of fire.

You just might have to allow him to have a mini-hibernation. Go ahead and put him into a cool place covered with shredded newspaper and leave him alone for a couple of weeks. At the end of that time, soak him in warm water and put him back into his habitat. But you MUST make him think it is now summer, with longer, warmer days.

Yes, the big habitat is on the floor and it really is impossible to move it, it is so heavy that I can't lift it up even when i'ts empty and with no sand. I was thinking of mini-hibernation but I don't have any other cool place but fridge, which is being opened and closed many times a day and I can't provide constant temperature, which is also risky. I just put him into the small terrarium, he is sleeping in the cool corner now, but tomorrow he wil feel much warmer as I will turn the heater on and the light will be much lighter than in the previous enclosure. I hope this will help!
Thank You, Emysemys!

 

[lynnedit]

Again, make sure you have an accurate thermometer to measure temps. (round ones don't work).
Torts do not need protein rich foods, they need weeds, fiber rich foods. While it is possible they stumble upon a bird's egg occasionally in the wild, I would imagine it is a once in a lifetime sort of 'I won the lottery!' kind of thing.
Your tort table looks really nice. A shame not to use it.
Consider covering part over the basking light (once you are sure the temps are accurate) with the aluminum foil that Yvonne suggested. Or, you could upgrade to a 160w MVB for the winter.
If he does not perk up soon, I don't think he sounds healthy enough to hibernate. I would consider taking him to a Vet who specializes in Reptiles and Tortoises.
Keep us posted!

 

[Laura]

just turn the lights and heat off.. no need to put him anywhere else.. he is already doing it himself but he is confused due to the lights and heater..
quiet would be nice too, but not really sure it totally matters...

 

[MeRalf]

Again, make sure you have an accurate thermometer to measure temps. (round ones don't work).
Torts do not need protein rich foods, they need weeds, fiber rich foods. While it is possible they stumble upon a bird's egg occasionally in the wild, I would imagine it is a once in a lifetime sort of 'I won the lottery!' kind of thing.
Your tort table looks really nice. A shame not to use it.
Consider covering part over the basking light (once you are sure the temps are accurate) with the aluminum foil that Yvonne suggested. Or, you could upgrade to a 160w MVB for the winter.
If he does not perk up soon, I don't think he sounds healthy enough to hibernate. I would consider taking him to a Vet who specializes in Reptiles and Tortoises.
Keep us posted!

Thank you very much for advice! I am a bit confused about the egg white, because the vet who suggested giving the egg to Ralf is our capital citie's zoo vet who is specialised in reptiles. She said that I should give some small piece of egg white or chicken brest (a really small piece) once a month. But you all are saying that I really shouldn't...well, I guess I just wont.
So yesterday I put him the small terrarium and he woke up before I did, now he is really active,I must admit that he is all the time trying to escape and climbing the walls,still not eating. I will try to cover the big enclosure with the follium and see the temps!

---

just turn the lights and heat off.. no need to put him anywhere else.. he is already doing it himself but he is confused due to the lights and heater..
quiet would be nice too, but not really sure it totally matters...

I would but I have read that if he is hibernating in the room temperature, he can really damage his health because, as I said, he hasn't eaten for so long time... Do you think I should still do that?
Thank you for the idea!

 

[lynnedit]

How is he doing? Have you managed to make your bigger tort table work, stay warmer? It is a good sign he perked up for you.
(don't know what to tell you about the protein thing, but they really are more vegetarian, I suppose they might eat a bug now and then, but a good variety of greens and weeds along with calciumD3 in the winter should be all they need).

 

[MeRalf]

How is he doing? Have you managed to make your bigger tort table work, stay warmer? It is a good sign he perked up for you.
(don't know what to tell you about the protein thing, but they really are more vegetarian, I suppose they might eat a bug now and then, but a good variety of greens and weeds along with calciumD3 in the winter should be all they need).

Thank you, I think he is OK now, I put him in the big tort table and he just went to sleep, I think I will just let him sleep for few weeks. When I let him out to walk around the room a little bit (he really loves it), he was just lookink for the coldest place, I understood that he won't back down from his need to hibernate. I really hope that nothing bad will happen as the temperature is too high in the place where he sleeps, I just have no choice. How do you think, when should I wake him up?

 

[lynnedit]

I have not had experience with this, but since he is not really hibernating (temps are too warm in his table), I would not let him go more than, say, 2 weeks or so. Otherwise he may lose too much weight.
See what others say.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi Ralf,

You may want to check this too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-impulse-russian-buy-and-do-we-hibernate?pid=343581#pid343581

Your climate will fit at least in a way the Russian's requirements, because your short warm season is enough for them. They will fatten quickly and then they will burrow and just rest.
Of course, outdoor enclosure and a rain protected little "greenhouse" and shelter are absolute requirements.
Learn about how to prepare correctly a tortoise for brumation, then from the next year you should do it.
Your tortoise had access to sun, outdoors? Or it's just the indoor enclosure in the pics?

 

[MeRalf]

Hi Ralf,

You may want to check this too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-impulse-russian-buy-and-do-we-hibernate?pid=343581#pid343581

Your climate will fit at least in a way the Russian's requirements, because your short warm season is enough for them. They will fatten quickly and then they will burrow and just rest.
Of course, outdoor enclosure and a rain protected little "greenhouse" and shelter are absolute requirements.
Learn about how to prepare correctly a tortoise for brumation, then from the next year you should do it.
Your tortoise had access to sun, outdoors? Or it's just the indoor enclosure in the pics?

Because we live in apartment, unfortunately it is not possible to provide an outdoor enclosure for Ralf, but during the summertime I took him out evry day for half an hour to walk around in the meadow. I also have a balcony which is very sunny in the summertime and I put him there time to time. Sometimes in summertime I go to the countryside for few weeks, than I will definitely take him with me and make him a nice outdoor enclosure. Tank you for the link!