So, really how intelligent?

[Gillian M]

Does that grin mean that torts are smart?

 

[mini_max]

I think they know what they want, that's for sure. There are days max can't put his head in his shell fast enough when I get near and there are days where he darn near tries to climb anything to come up, and out I think, if he knows I'm there. He rarely comes out except when he gets to soak in the big tub instead of his roaster pan. However, on days where I think he's seeming to want to interact, I lay my hand flat in his enclosure. Sometimes he trundles over and climbs on, so I know he's in a mushy mood and he gets held or rubbed for a bit. Other days he'll give me a sniff and pass right on by. Not sure what that means, but he knows what he wants and I don't think its all instinctive behaviour.

 

[JasonMcKeownSr]

Well there will always be people that hold one belief and one that opposes it. With my observation... My Peanut took almost 6 months to show any signs that she isnt just working on instinct. She would duck into her shell when i moved too fast, wouldnt let me touch her head or chin, just ate slept pooped and that was that. But after that time she started to show signs that she knows what is going on. And she started to see me not as a threat but as the food dude. Then after that she noticed i didnt only bring food. I would rub her shell pet her head give her baths. I can honestly say not that she knows who i am. She comes out of her den when she hears me. If im looking into her enclosure she walks under my hand because i kinda tickle her shell and she takes off running around the enclosure. But to conclude.. No they are not like dogs but yes, i do think they have more intellect than just eating and sleeping.

 

[Randi]

I've only had my tortoise since July of last year. My Red Foot had a really rough start, was going to be euthanized so I acquired it. She is about a year old, maybe a year and a few months. I haven't been able to build much of a relationship with it in this short time. If I try to touch her face or approach her directly, most of the time she recoils into her shell. S/he spends most of the day asleep, after daily soaks and food. She seems to associate me with the good stuff - food. I, of course, would like to think she's walking over to me because she "loves me"... until I look beside me and realize the food containers are close.. LOL. I hope in time I see more activity and personality like others have mentioned. I try not to humanize their actions. I don't think we will ever be sure of what animals feel, all we can do is speculate.

I have watched experiments with Red Foots, like teaching them to use a touch screen, work their way through a maze, etc. At the end of the experiment, if done correctly, they were rewarded with food. I want to say they are just motivated by food.. I want to believe it's due to intelligence.

Food seemed to be an excellent motivation for my Reeves turtle. The first month I had him, he would swim away from me and hide. He now swims crazily at the front of the tank when he sees me, almost as if he's chasing me. I can reach in at any time and grab him. He is expecting food. He seems to really enjoy having his head and neck rubbed, but I can't say it's because he loves me.. I remind myself he's probably shedding and itchy.

They say the way to the heart is through the stomach... Haahahaha.

 

[Gillian M]

I've only had my tortoise since July of last year. My Red Foot had a really rough start, was going to be euthanized so I acquired it. She is about a year old, maybe a year and a few months. I haven't been able to build much of a relationship with it in this short time. If I try to touch her face or approach her directly, most of the time she recoils into her shell. S/he spends most of the day asleep, after daily soaks and food. She seems to associate me with the good stuff - food. I, of course, would like to think she's walking over to me because she "loves me"... until I look beside me and realize the food containers are close.. LOL. I hope in time I see more activity and personality like others have mentioned. I try not to humanize their actions. I don't think we will ever be sure of what animals feel, all we can do is speculate.

I have watched experiments with Red Foots, like teaching them to use a touch screen, work their way through a maze, etc. At the end of the experiment, if done correctly, they were rewarded with food. I want to say they are just motivated by food.. I want to believe it's due to intelligence.

Food seemed to be an excellent motivation for my Reeves turtle. The first month I had him, he would swim away from me and hide. He now swims crazily at the front of the tank when he sees me, almost as if he's chasing me. I can reach in at any time and grab him. He is expecting food. He seems to really enjoy having his head and neck rubbed, but I can't say it's because he loves me.. I remind myself he's probably shedding and itchy.

They say the way to the heart is through the stomach... Haahahaha.

Interesting! You mentioned experiments with torts. Tell me, did such experiments work? I posted a thread called "Training A Tort," as I tried to train my tort not to entre one of the rooms in my flat. Surprisingly enough, it was (and still is) the only room my tort wants to entre. "Forbidden fruit is the sweetest!" I thought, isn't it?

I'd very much appreciate an answer. Thank you.

 

[Randi]

I'm not sure about tortoise training - but I have seen box turtles trained. Box turtles are more predatory, so more alert. There's a gentleman who is a psychiatrist for children so he trained his Box turtle to do tricks for them so they are more willing to open up.

Google Red Foot experiments. You can look up the maze test, as well as the touch screen test. They are testing memory and also how they problem solve, so to speak. The maze was awesome, they are apparently using land marks to navigate.

 

[Gillian M]

I'm not sure about tortoise training - but I have seen box turtles trained. Box turtles are more predatory, so more alert. There's a gentleman who is a psychiatrist for children so he trained his Box turtle to do tricks for them so they are more willing to open up.

Google Red Foot experiments. You can look up the maze test, as well as the touch screen test. They are testing memory and also how they problem solve, so to speak. The maze was awesome, they are apparently using land marks to navigate.

Thanks so much your alert as well as the video which reallly was amazing. Appreciate your reply.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Many intelligence tests have been carried out with reptiles including tortoises and they always scored very badly. It was thus assumed that reptiles were just creatures of instinct with tiny intellects ie. stupid.
But then the clever scientists realized that the tests had been carried out in human room temperatures and not at the ambient heat levels necessary for reptiles to function properly!
Since then tests have increasingly supported signs of social learning and maze finding abilities sometimes superior to many mammals.
Wood turtles seem to be the cleverest, then sulcatas, russians, red foots and Hermann's. poor Tidgy is a Greek, but I reckon she's pretty smart, especially when it comes to food.

 

[Chenderson]

I think it is a bad case of human arrogance to assume that our emotions are complex, and beyond the comprehension of other animals. Ultimately we ourselves are animals, the main difference being, we are able to apply logic and rationalize our actions with complex jargon. Bottom line is, we still act exactly the same, just because an animal cannot rationalize/manipulate its own actions, does not mean it lacks 'emotions'.

I do not think my tortoise loves me, I believe it recognizes me as a care giver, which we would likely interpret into a friend/ loved one. There was an experiment I remember reading/watching which fascinated me, it was done with children; they observed an object that they and an adult could see, e.g. T.V remote. If the adult left the room, a 3rd party removed the T.V remote in clear site of the child. When the adult returned to the room, the child was asked where the adult thought the remote was, the child would respond that the adult thought the 3rd party had it. The children could not grasp the concept that the adult did not see the object removed by the third party.

We develop most of our rationalization and emotional responses as we spend years interacting with literally thousands upon thousands of other humans. i don't believe there is anything particularly incredible about our own emotions or intelligence, just our ability to understand them, and manipulate them. I believe most if not all creatures have the same emotions and to an extent intelligence, maybe just not as fast a CPU, and lack of a network card in I.T terms!

Excuse the rambling!

 

[ascott]

I think it is a bad case of human arrogance to assume that our emotions are complex, and beyond the comprehension of other animals. Ultimately we ourselves are animals, the main difference being, we are able to apply logic and rationalize our actions with complex jargon. Bottom line is, we still act exactly the same, just because an animal cannot rationalize/manipulate its own actions, does not mean it lacks 'emotions'.

I do not think my tortoise loves me, I believe it recognizes me as a care giver, which we would likely interpret into a friend/ loved one. There was an experiment I remember reading/watching which fascinated me, it was done with children; they observed an object that they and an adult could see, e.g. T.V remote. If the adult left the room, a 3rd party removed the T.V remote in clear site of the child. When the adult returned to the room, the child was asked where the adult thought the remote was, the child would respond that the adult thought the 3rd party had it. The children could not grasp the concept that the adult did not see the object removed by the third party.

We develop most of our rationalization and emotional responses as we spend years interacting with literally thousands upon thousands of other humans. i don't believe there is anything particularly incredible about our own emotions or intelligence, just our ability to understand them, and manipulate them. I believe most if not all creatures have the same emotions and to an extent intelligence, maybe just not as fast a CPU, and lack of a network card in I.T terms!

You see here, so what you seem to be sharing is that all we humans can base what other creatures "emotions" have is solely based on our ability to "rationalize", "interpret", "understand", "manipulate" which are all feelings based only on ones life--there is not exact meaning for each word....so they can be equated to emotional feelings...and using our emotions we then impose those onto other animals.....again, I do not believe a tortoise is "happy" to see us with the same human meanings to the word---I do believe they have their own book of stuff based on their species and life experiences....no one says they don't have their own set of stuff...but that it likely does not interpret the same way we humans usually narrate....lol...

 

[Blkjkoknhrt]

All I need to know is....wait for it...he's a SLOW LEARNER. Maybe it's just mine, but he has shown learning behavior but it's cause and effect instead of relevance training. For example, Munster has 2 food dishes, one on each side o the middle of his tank. He learned that if he walks all around the edge he finds the other food dish. I've been trying to teach him to cross the enclosure (a trip of 2 feet instead of 4 feet), and he doesn't get it. He eats the trail of treats from one dish to the other, eats at the dish, then walks the wall around to the other food dish. (I maintain the same layout in the tank, routine and stability is important in their little minds). I know its all about instinct, routine, seasonal rather than daily variations, and an accustomed acceptance of maintenance interruptions.
The 2 small upside down dishes are the feeding stations, 1 pic shows half tank with dishes, the other is the full tank. black bar is UVB. And there's Munster, 8 month old H. boettgeri

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

All I need to know is....wait for it...he's a SLOW LEARNER. Maybe it's just mine, but he has shown learning behavior but it's cause and effect instead of relevance training. For example, Munster has 2 food dishes, one on each side o the middle of his tank. He learned that if he walks all around the edge he finds the other food dish. I've been trying to teach him to cross the enclosure (a trip of 2 feet instead of 4 feet), and he doesn't get it. He eats the trail of treats from one dish to the other, eats at the dish, then walks the wall around to the other food dish. (I maintain the same layout in the tank, routine and stability is important in their little minds). I know its all about instinct, routine, seasonal rather than daily variations, and an accustomed acceptance of maintenance interruptions.
The 2 small upside down dishes are the feeding stations, 1 pic shows half tank with dishes, the other is the full tank. black bar is UVB. And there's Munster, 8 month old H. boettgeri

Munster is lovely

 

[Cfr200]

My parents had a box turtle that would come into their screened in porch every night when they sat out there in the summer. It would stand in front of my mother until she gave it some food. It did this for about 2 years. It got in through the door that they left open slightly so their dog could go in and out. I then put in a small dog door into one of their screen sections and they closed the door. The dog door was about 6ft away from the door. It took the turtle 1 day to figure out how to come and go through the dog door. Thier dog took over a week to consistantly use the door.

 

[Gillian M]

My parents had a box turtle that would come into their screened in porch every night when they sat out there in the summer. It would stand in front of my mother until she gave it some food. It did this for about 2 years. It got in through the door that they left open slightly so their dog could go in and out. I then put in a small dog door into one of their screen sections and they closed the door. The dog door was about 6ft away from the door. It took the turtle 1 day to figure out how to come and go through the dog door. Thier dog took over a week to consistantly use the door.

My tort has learnt where the refrigerator is, and whenever I move towards it, my tort follows me until I open the door. "Does this mean it's hungry, or is it just curiousity?" I wonder . One thing I'm sure of is that torts run for food. But...does a tort know that a fridge contains food?

 

[Gillian M]

Good morning tort owners, and hope you're all well. And how are your cute little (or big!) torts? All well? Hope so.

 

[DawnH]

I loved reading back through these old posts. Tuleo is a year and a half and I think he finally sees me as an okay person. (Food gal?) He no longer ducks and hides, he loves having his carapace scratched and when I carry him outside (or inside from being out) he has his head out and does a soft "swimming" with his legs. Not quick, frantic or stressful - he just softly flies...lol. It's pretty cute.

I was also very interested in reading the post about socializing. I was wondering about that actually. We are foster parents and I want Tuleo accustomed to people around. Our foster children find watching him and feeding him very therapeutic. One of our fosters girls was three and she would take a stool and watch and talk to him for the longest time. I am sure he has had many secrets told to him. So far he has done great around people, I wasn't sure if taking him out would put stress on him or if he would enjoy it.

And to the young lady that started this thread (I think I read you are 12?!) WOW - you rock. Your little guy is very lucky to have you, someone who has sat back and asked this very important question at such a young age. How wonderful.

 

[yillt]

Does that grin mean that torts are smart?

Oh sorry. I started the post and was smiling at everyone's opinions. (E-smiling.)

 

[Gillian M]

Oh sorry. I started the post and was smiling at everyone's opinions. (E-smiling.)

No problem, no need to apologize.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

You see here, so what you seem to be sharing is that all we humans can base what other creatures "emotions" have is solely based on our ability to "rationalize", "interpret", "understand", "manipulate" which are all feelings based only on ones life--there is not exact meaning for each word....so they can be equated to emotional feelings...and using our emotions we then impose those onto other animals.....again, I do not believe a tortoise is "happy" to see us with the same human meanings to the word---I do believe they have their own book of stuff based on their species and life experiences....no one says they don't have their own set of stuff...but that it likely does not interpret the same way we humans usually narrate....lol...

You know for a rare time I disagree with you. The bond between Bob and I was not because I was the Food Goddess or I anthropomorphisized him. My proof? Read some Bob stories, talk to people who met Bob. There was intelligence and emotion there. It didn't just happen tho, I worked hard with Bob and took him places and let kids ride him and strangers touch him. Now, 'nuff said without tears.....Happy New 2016!

 

[Tort1419]

Every day when I come home from school, I walk up to his enclosure and say "hi George" so that he can hear me (or rather feel the vibration of the words) and he always looks up at me in a way that looks like he's saying "hi" back