Spurs on hatchlings

counting

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Can you always see spurs on the thighs of hatchling greeks?

Mine seems to have none, but is definitely a greek. No enlarged looking scale at all.
 

SweetGreekTorts

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Yes. There is one on the back of each thigh with the Testudo graeca. Some might be a lighter or darker color to match their skin and then lighten up as they grow. Here is a picture of my month-old marokkensis hatchling, and his thigh spurs are visible.IMG_20190407_121825.jpeg
 

counting

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Yes. There is one on the back of each thigh with the Testudo graeca. Some might be a lighter or darker color to match their skin and then lighten up as they grow. Here is a picture of my month-old marokkensis hatchling, and his thigh spurs are visible.View attachment 274623
I'll take a picture probably tomorrow (they are burrowed in, likely for the night and I don't want to disturb) perhaps they are very small and light to match the body because they are certainly a greek.
 

counting

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Am I missing something?
 

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SweetGreekTorts

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I definitely do not see any spurs on your baby's thighs. I do remember that your little one is a mix of two different subspecies of Greek Tortoise (terrestris and ibera). It's very possible the breeder crossbred his lines with the Hermann's species as well. I know most Hermann's do not have thigh spurs and many people get them confused and mixed up with the Greeks. That would be my guess.

I'm interested in what Chris thinks as well. I've never seen a Greek Tortoise without thigh spurs.

Here's a photo of one of my pure terrestris that I got from Chris. She's only 3 months old. The spurs are hard to miss.20190614_170406.jpeg
 

counting

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I thought my "spur-thigh" was a little lacking in the spur department. Your terrestris is about the same age as my baby.

The breeder keeps a breeding colony of greeks and a breeding colony of hermanns but they are completely separated (I believe the breeder primarily breeds hermanns). To the best of my knowledge there is no hermanni genetics in my little guy. That said, who can really say? If it's there, it would be a few generations back, as all the breeders greeks look at least superficially like greeks.

Both yourself and Chris believed Atlas to be an intergrade/hybrid terrestris x Ibera based on the initial picture the breeder sent me of available hatchlings.

I'm very curious. Regardless of anything, Atlas will be living their life as a treasured pet/member of the family, never as a breeding animal.

I'm going to post a carapace and plastron picture, and a few others and see what you guys think.
 
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counting

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Here are some pictures. To my (very inexperienced) eye they look greek. Fat body. Wide/more blocky head. Lighter skin, with a coloured head patch. More "greek" markings on the carapace. Random gray/black splotches on the plastron. But perhaps these pictures will be helpful for those with a better eye than mine.
 

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counting

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Testudo graeca soussensis in the mix? To be clear I have zero knowledge about how probable that is or how to ID this subspecies(and perhaps the idea that my tort has hermanni ancestors is more likely?), but google leads me to believe that this subspecies of greek lacks thigh spurs?
 

SweetGreekTorts

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I would rule out the soussensis. They are very uncommon and not many breeders have them. If the breeder you got yours from has hermanni as well, then that's more likely, especially since he is crossbreeding subspecies of graeca.
 

counting

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I would rule out the soussensis. They are very uncommon and not many breeders have them. If the breeder you got yours from has hermanni as well, then that's more likely, especially since he is crossbreeding subspecies of graeca.

Neither direct parent of mine would be hermanni, and the breeder has separate colonies of hermanns and greek- but the tortoise situation in Canada being as it is(certainly where I am), it is possible it could be in the background(Is it normal for a hybrid to be fertile? Fascinating.)

Honestly I'm trying to spot any other hermanni traits now. I wouldn't have suspected a thing if it weren't for those missing spurs.

I suppose they've yet to develop a 23andme for tortoises
 
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SweetGreekTorts

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@HermanniChris would be able to tell you more. The hermanni are his passion and speciality so he's able to notice more than I can. I'm able to distinguish between the two species, and between the various Greek subspecies (I'm wanting to specialize in them), but Chris has studied them all in depth over many years.
 

HermanniChris

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I don’t see an ounce of hermanni in there. Everything from markings, scute arrangement, structure etc are all graeca. Soussensis are typically the only graeca without any spurs but, I think we need to wait and see how this one grows. There’s a chance soussensis is in the DNA somewhere. So many European tortoises have been traded over the years and even released into natural areas to continue bloodline pollution. In addition, we can’t really ever rule anything out with Testudo. Look at the large number of hermanni in Sicily (Madonie) for example. These animals have every large, pronounced thigh spurs and they are 100% pure hermanni. Not a hint of graeca having ever influenced them. Keep us updated. Perhaps this one’s spurs will develop over time.
 

counting

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I don’t see an ounce of hermanni in there. Everything from markings, scute arrangement, structure etc are all graeca. Soussensis are typically the only graeca without any spurs but, I think we need to wait and see how this one grows. There’s a chance soussensis is in the DNA somewhere. So many European tortoises have been traded over the years and even released into natural areas to continue bloodline pollution. In addition, we can’t really ever rule anything out with Testudo. Look at the large number of hermanni in Sicily (Madonie) for example. These animals have every large, pronounced thigh spurs and they are 100% pure hermanni. Not a hint of graeca having ever influenced them. Keep us updated. Perhaps this one’s spurs will develop over time.

Thank you so much for giving your opinion! I will absolutely update as Atlas grows, and keep a close eye on the spur situation. I was also searching for a trace of hermanni looks in this baby and couldn't see any- however I acknowledge my eyes are inexperienced and I could easily miss something. It's good to hear someone who is really an expert verify. :)
Greeks in Canada as far as I know are mostly a mix of the surviving subspecies that ended up imported here at one point or another. Canadian tortoise keeping is nothing like in the USA, or even the UK, as it is a much more involved process with our climate.

I really appreciate all the help yourself and @SweetGreekTorts have been giving me over the past weeks!
 

counting

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20190715_114713.jpg Atlas just completed a major shed on their legs and thighs. I expected to see fresh little spurs developing, but alas, so far they remain quite smooth. Haha. Atlas will be 4 months on the 28th, so I suppose there is still plenty of time!
 

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View attachment 276569 Atlas just completed a major shed on their legs and thighs. I expected to see fresh little spurs developing, but alas, so far they remain quite smooth. Haha. Atlas will be 4 months on the 28th, so I suppose there is still plenty of time!
I think I see a little nub!
 

Ben02

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View attachment 276569 Atlas just completed a major shed on their legs and thighs. I expected to see fresh little spurs developing, but alas, so far they remain quite smooth. Haha. Atlas will be 4 months on the 28th, so I suppose there is still plenty of time!
Beautiful tortoise, I wouldn’t worry about it. You never know, you might wake up one day to find little stumps on him.
 

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