Staggered Day/Night Cycle

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

Through nobody else’s fault other than my own I have been awful at keeping Shelly’s day/night cycle consistent. He religiously gets 10-12 hours a day of UVB and basking temperatures but I haven’t stuck to any set schedule. I’m aiming to have his light and heat on from 8am-8pm but have been sick as a dog the last few weeks, so every time I try to cut back the time his light goes on an hour each day to try to get him back into his usual routine, I’ve pretty much slept through my alarm. His light was supposed to go on at 11am today but I ended up sleeping until 3pm, which means I’m now planning on turning his light off at 1am and on again tomorrow at 1pm… How bad is this for him? I feel pretty guilty about it and want to get him into an 8am-8pm routine ASAP, but I’m currently unable to afford a timer for his enclosure considering I’ve just spent over £500 on a custom viv for him.

 

[Yvonne G]

Timers are not that expensive. Just go to Google or the home page of whatever home improvement store you like to shop and search for timers. The kind I use is at Walmart for five dollars and change.
(hyper tough indoor analog timer)

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

Timers are not that expensive. Just go to Google or the home page of whatever home improvement store you like to shop and search for timers. The kind I use is at Walmart for five dollars and change.
(hyper tough indoor analog timer)

I’m looking at timers now and I’m a bit confused. Timer is straight forward for the light source but what about for the thermostat?

 

[Yvonne G]

Thermostat is not on a timer.

 

[Tom]

I’m looking at timers now and I’m a bit confused. Timer is straight forward for the light source but what about for the thermostat?

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Thank you Tom, though I think you may have misinterpreted my question!

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

Thermostat is not on a timer.

So in theory there isn’t much point of a timer for the heating? His CHE stays on night and day and I merely adjust it accordingly to his thermostat for night or day time temps.

 

[Tom]

Thank you Tom, though I think you may have misinterpreted my question!

I did not. The above post spells out what you need to be doing.

I would not worry about the lost time today. That is equivalent to a cold cloudy day outside. Just set your timer when you get it, and the tortoise will adjust.

The basking and ambient lights should be on for 13-14 hours a day, simulating a summer-like light cycle, if you do not intend to brumate this tortoise. 10 hours a day is not enough unless you want this tort to brumate.

There is no need for the UV bulb to be on 12 hours a day. It only needs to run a few hours mid day, again, simulating what happens outside.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

I did not. The above post spells out what you need to be doing.

I would not worry about the lost time today. That is equivalent to a cold cloudy day outside. Just set your timer when you get it, and the tortoise will adjust.

The basking and ambient lights should be on for 13-14 hours a day, simulating a summer-like light cycle, if you do not intend to brumate this tortoise. 10 hours a day is not enough unless you want this tort to brumate.

There is no need for the UV bulb to be on 12 hours a day. It only needs to run a few hours mid day, again, simulating what happens outside.

He doesn’t have ambient lighting per se, but a UBV strip light that I keep on for preferably 12 hours a day. He cannot go outside as I’m in the UK and it’s currently nearing winter here, far too cold for him. Surely whenever the sun is up and out in the real world there are UV rays, or at least that’s what the UV index in England tells me from sunrise to sunset.

He’s never been brumated before and is very active during the day so I have no worries about that. Just curious to hear why you suggest his UV should only be on for such short hours? He’s a Greek and everywhere I’ve read thus far has told me he should be getting 12 hours of UV a day? No animosity, just curious!

 

[Tom]

He doesn’t have ambient lighting per se, but a UBV strip light that I keep on for preferably 12 hours a day. He cannot go outside as I’m in the UK and it’s currently nearing winter here, far too cold for him. Surely whenever the sun is up and out in the real world there are UV rays, or at least that’s what the UV index in England tells me from sunrise to sunset.

He’s never been brumated before and is very active during the day so I have no worries about that. Just curious to hear why you suggest his UV should only be on for such short hours? He’s a Greek and everywhere I’ve read thus far has told me he should be getting 12 hours of UV a day? No animosity, just curious!

Oh, I'm so glad you started this thread and asked this question. This seems to be a common misconception! Many people will read this and understand what is happening better now!

The UV index is telling you the daily high, much like the temperature. We will have a high of 72 here today, but its only 66 right now at 1:52pm. The UV works similarly. There is ZERO UVB in the early morning rays, and same for late afternoon/early evening. I can point my meter right into the warm sun at 8:00am or 4:30pm and the reading will be 0.0 UVI. UVB slowly increases in the late morning, peaks mid day, and drops off toward the evening again. Like a bell curve. People who are sunning their tortoises in the early morning or late evening for the purposes of giving their tortoises access to UV are doing nothing. Those tortoises may get warmth, exercise, and some natural grazing, but they aren't getting any UV.

Our tortoises do not need all that much UV. They shun the mid day sun in most cases, but especially so when it is hot. It is completely unnatural and potentially harmful to bombard a tortoise in an indoor enclosure with high levels of UV all over the whole enclosure for 12 hours a day. Lower levels of UV from older style T8 bulbs won't do any harm, but the newer, better T5 HO top bulbs can do damage, and other ambient lighting is still needed. In our indoor enclosures, the basking lamp is meant to simulate the sun's warmth and light, while the UV tube should simulate the brightness and the UV spike that happens mid day. A CHE or RHP on a thermostat gives us the ambient heat of a warm day, and we NEED the ambient lighting to simulate the brightness and proper light spectrum that we get outside every day. Dimly lit tortoise enclosures are not good. The basking bulb and UV tube are not enough. It needs to be bright in there during the day, especially in winter for a temperate species that you do not want to brumate.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

Oh, I'm so glad you started this thread and asked this question. This seems to be a common misconception! Many people will read this and understand what is happening better now!

The UV index is telling you the daily high, much like the temperature. We will have a high of 72 here today, but its only 66 right now at 1:52pm. The UV works similarly. There is ZERO UVB in the early morning rays, and same for late afternoon/early evening. I can point my meter right into the warm sun at 8:00am or 4:30pm and the reading will be 0.0 UVI. UVB slowly increases in the late morning, peaks mid day, and drops off toward the evening again. Like a bell curve. People who are sunning their tortoises in the early morning or late evening for the purposes of giving their tortoises access to UV are doing nothing. Those tortoises may get warmth, exercise, and some natural grazing, but they aren't getting any UV.

Our tortoises do not need all that much UV. They shun the mid day sun in most cases, but especially so when it is hot. It is completely unnatural and potentially harmful to bombard a tortoise in an indoor enclosure with high levels of UV all over the whole enclosure for 12 hours a day. Lower levels of UV from older style T8 bulbs won't do any harm, but the newer, better T5 HO top bulbs can do damage, and other ambient lighting is still needed. In our indoor enclosures, the basking lamp is meant to simulate the sun's warmth and light, while the UV tube should simulate the brightness and the UV spike that happens mid day. A CHE or RHP on a thermostat gives us the ambient heat of a warm day, and we NEED the ambient lighting to simulate the brightness and proper light spectrum that we get outside every day. Dimly lit tortoise enclosures are not good. The basking bulb and UV tube are not enough. It needs to be bright in there during the day, especially in winter for a temperate species that you do not want to brumate.

Interesting. Thank you for the clarification! So, his new viv gets here in a few weeks. I’m writing down a little checklist to make sure I install everything he needs into it before I piece it together. To clarify one last time, I’ll be using a 12% UVB bar with a reflector, and that should only stay on for two hours a day? And then, alongside that, an ambient light source to keep on for 13 hours a day (maybe a non UVB bar?) aswell as a basking bulb? I’m nervous he won’t be getting the rays he needs to be honest. Is it detrimental to his health if I do keep his 12% UVB bar on for 13 hours instead of only a couple? I’d really rather urr on the side of caution, especially with so much conflicting information out there!

Thanks Tom!

 

[Tom]

Interesting. Thank you for the clarification! So, his new viv gets here in a few weeks. I’m writing down a little checklist to make sure I install everything he needs into it before I piece it together. To clarify one last time, I’ll be using a 12% UVB bar with a reflector, and that should only stay on for two hours a day? And then, alongside that, an ambient light source to keep on for 13 hours a day (maybe a non UVB bar?) aswell as a basking bulb? I’m nervous he won’t be getting the rays he needs to be honest. Is it detrimental to his health if I do keep his 12% UVB bar on for 13 hours instead of only a couple? I’d really rather urr on the side of caution, especially with so much conflicting information out there!

Thanks Tom!

There is nowhere in the world where they would be getting mid day summer levels of UV for 12-13 hours. If you are using a UV meter to set the height correctly, then the UV levels under it will not be dangerous, but too much UV exposure is bad for any animal. 15 minutes a couple of times a week is probably enough for them to do what they need to do, but 2 or 3 hours mid day allows them the opportunity to come out and bask in some UV, or hide from it if they don't need or want it. Much like their basking bulb, they seek it out when they need it and avoid it when they don't. You could compromise and leave it on for 4-6 hours if you like. I wouldn't call that "necessary", but if the height is set correctly, it shouldn't be detrimental in any way either. I think 13 hours under the intense UV of a 12% HO tube could be detrimental, and its certainly not what they would ever encounter outside, even in summer.

 

[Newbabymama]

There is nowhere in the world where they would be getting mid day summer levels of UV for 12-13 hours. If you are using a UV meter to set the height correctly, then the UV levels under it will not be dangerous, but too much UV exposure is bad for any animal. 15 minutes a couple of times a week is probably enough for them to do what they need to do, but 2 or 3 hours mid day allows them the opportunity to come out and bask in some UV, or hide from it if they don't need or want it. Much like their basking bulb, they seek it out when they need it and avoid it when they don't. You could compromise and leave it on for 4-6 hours if you like. I wouldn't call that "necessary", but if the height is set correctly, it shouldn't be detrimental in any way either. I think 13 hours under the intense UV of a 12% HO tube could be detrimental, and its certainly not what they would ever encounter outside, even in summer.

Piggy backing on with another question as I read through this. If the UV bulb is only on for 2-3 hrs mid day what if they are choosing to be in their hide during that time? Do we need to make sure they are under the lights during that time?

 

[Tom]

Piggy backing on with another question as I read through this. If the UV bulb is only on for 2-3 hrs mid day what if they are choosing to be in their hide during that time? Do we need to make sure they are under the lights during that time?

No tortoise should be forced to be under the UV, or the sun either. Like the basking bulb, the tortoise will self-regulate its time under the UV bulb.

In the same way we use a thermometer to ensure the basking bulb is the correct temperature, we need to use a UV meter to ensure that UV levels under our tubes are correct. Too much UV is harmful and can do damage, and too little UV is of no benefit. Without a meter, we are just guessing. If the tortoise is hiding from the UV tube, your UV tube may be producing too much, or they may just not feel like they need UV at that time.

 

[Newbabymama]

No tortoise should be forced to be under the UV, or the sun either. Like the basking bulb, the tortoise will self-regulate its time under the UV bulb.

In the same way we use a thermometer to ensure the basking bulb is the correct temperature, we need to use a UV meter to ensure that UV levels under our tubes are correct. Too much UV is harmful and can do damage, and too little UV is of no benefit. Without a meter, we are just guessing. If the tortoise is hiding from the UV tube, your UV tube may be producing too much, or they may just not feel like they need UV at that time.

Thank you Tom! I always appreciate your time and expertise!