Struggling to bite

[laura2good]

Hi there, my baby Russian tort bought at Christmas seems to be struggling to bite pieces off his food then loses interest. Carrots I grate so that’s ok but cucumber, romaine lettuce, spring greens, bell peppers and now even the curly kale seems to be giving him trouble. Once left for a while the veg loses its crunch so becomes even more difficult for him/her. I bought prickly pear cactus, which I peel like I do most things with a toughish skin, he has lost interest in that too. I’m waiting on an order of weeds and flowers which I bought online but until that arrives (seller posts weds only) I’m starting to worry. He had a great appetite and goes back for another try at his food every now and then but usually gives up after only managing to bite off a couple of pieces in total. Any suggestions? I’ve tried bigger pieces and smaller pieces but I find nothing is helping. Many thanks

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

How is his mouth color? Could you send us a picture of his beak?

 

[zolasmum]

Welcome from Devon - I am not an expert, but I suggest you post photos of his beak, from the front and both sides, so that people who are experts here can see if he has a problem. Also, how about mixing his chopped up food into a mush,so that he doesn't have to bite at all ?
Angie

 

[laura2good]

How is his mouth color? Could you send us a picture of his beak?

Sorry I’m just in from picking my son up. It’s dark outside and my lighting isn’t great. I can’t get one of the beak open or a good pic in general actually but I have seen in his mouth when I hold pieces for him to eat and it’s not got the yellow discharge inside or anything like that. It’s a very pale pink or maybe just looks very pale next to his dark face. I have endlessly googled info and videos on everything and still do b4 doing or giving anything new. I was just worried he maybe didn’t have a sharp enough beak or the tip of the beak wasn’t closing properly but I don’t think that is the case. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I really do appreciate your time and help

 

[laura2good]

Sorry I’m just in from picking my son up. It’s dark outside and my lighting isn’t great. I can’t get one of the beak open or a good pic in general actually but I have seen in his mouth when I hold pieces for him to eat and it’s not got the yellow discharge inside or anything like that. It’s a very pale pink or maybe just looks very pale next to his dark face. I have endlessly googled info and videos on everything and still do b4 doing or giving anything new. I was just worried he maybe didn’t have a sharp enough beak or the tip of the beak wasn’t closing properly but I don’t think that is the case. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I really do appreciate your time and help

Sorry the pics are really bad! I will have my eldest son retake them for me tomorrow in the day light. Many thanks

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Sorry I’m just in from picking my son up. It’s dark outside and my lighting isn’t great. I can’t get one of the beak open or a good pic in general actually but I have seen in his mouth when I hold pieces for him to eat and it’s not got the yellow discharge inside or anything like that. It’s a very pale pink or maybe just looks very pale next to his dark face. I have endlessly googled info and videos on everything and still do b4 doing or giving anything new. I was just worried he maybe didn’t have a sharp enough beak or the tip of the beak wasn’t closing properly but I don’t think that is the case. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I really do appreciate your time and help

Information off of Google is often the same old outdated info unfortunately, I can’t quite tell from the pics, but could be his beak is a bit on the longer side.
In regards to being pale, it’s again a bit hard to tell in the pic. I don’t suppose you’d mind trying to answer these questions? Don’t worry if you can’t do all of them!

What are your temperatures like all over? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps(middle and cooler side), night temps?
What kind of basking bulb is being used specifically? Packaging photos are good if you have any
Do you use indoor uv? If so what kind?
How’s humidity?
What’s his substrate?
What kind of monitoring do you have?
What’s his diet been like with you? I wouldn’t over do the carrots and cucumber. And I’d stop feeding the bell peppers, too high in sugar.

A photo of the full set up would be wonderful! Welcome to the forum

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Sorry the pics are really bad! I will have my eldest son retake them for me tomorrow in the day light. Many thanks

If you can get better photos that would be good!

I can’t get one of the beak open or a good pic in general actually but I have seen in his mouth when I hold pieces for him to eat and it’s not got the yellow discharge inside or anything like that.

Don't try forcing the mouth open, as it can do more harm than good, it is better to try to get a sneak peek while it is eating.

I will ask about some possible symptoms (to map out whether a vet visit might be necessary):

• Are there any chips on the beak?
• Has your tortoise been less interested in food overall or not even trying to eat?
• Lethargy (sluggishness)?
• Signs of stress such as restlessness or constantly hiding?
• Sudden lack of fear?
• Drooling?
• Keeping the mouth open constantly?
• Cheesy plaques and red specks in mouth?
• A white plaque covering the whole of the inside of the mouth?
• A bright red mouth or area in the mouth?

Some pointers: A healthy tortoise has a fairly strong bite. The beak shouldn't be overgrown and there should be a slight overbite of the top beak.

 

[laura2good]

Information off of Google is often the same old outdated info unfortunately, I can’t quite tell from the pics, but could be his beak is a bit on the longer side.
In regards to being pale, it’s again a bit hard to tell in the pic. I don’t suppose you’d mind trying to answer these questions? Don’t worry if you can’t do all of them!

What are your temperatures like all over? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps(middle and cooler side), night temps?
What kind of basking bulb is being used specifically? Packaging photos are good if you have any
Do you use indoor uv? If so what kind?
How’s humidity?
What’s his substrate?
What kind of monitoring do you have?
What’s his diet been like with you? I wouldn’t over do the carrots and cucumber. And I’d stop feeding the bell peppers, too high in sugar.

A photo of the full set up would be wonderful! Welcome to the forum

 

[laura2good]

Thank you everyone but I think i might have worried for nothing today he is back to coming over to his food and eating a decent amount. I have NEVER seen him use his water dish but I just have for the first time as I was taking pics to upload. I’m thrilled!! Watching him eat is one of my favourite things to do so I don’t kno how I could have missed him using the water dish before but maybe I have I will upload the pics of enclosure (just made 1 square smaller as he never used the bottom square) for any advice on things I could improve/change. I sunk a tray of coco soil and a seed mix at the bottom of enclosure for him. Hopefully it will b a nice addition once the weeds and plants grow. I will take a pic of the seed bag too. The temp at top end is usually 30c and bottom is 22c with middle at feeding bowl 25/26c during day and night time it’s 20c bottom with top where he sleeps 23/24c which I monitor with 3 digital temp and humidity thermometer and 1 dual dial thermometer. I will upload pics of basking and night heat bulb. I bought a uv checker card which never changes colour or I’m not using it properly so I changed the 2 uva/b 50w spots for 150w and night time I have black ceramic 150w bulbs. The new 150w uva/b bulbs don’t change the colour of the uva/b checker card either any tips on what to change would b so very much appreciated. Thank you everyone for making me feel so welcome, supported and less alone

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you everyone but I think i might have worried for nothing today he is back to coming over to his food and eating a decent amount. I have NEVER seen him use his water dish but I just have for the first time as I was taking pics to upload. I’m thrilled!! Watching him eat is one of my favourite things to do so I don’t kno how I could have missed him using the water dish before but maybe I have I will upload the pics of enclosure (just made 1 square smaller as he never used the bottom square) for any advice on things I could improve/change. I sunk a tray of coco soil and a seed mix at the bottom of enclosure for him. Hopefully it will b a nice addition once the weeds and plants grow. I will take a pic of the seed bag too. The temp at top end is usually 30c and bottom is 22c with middle at feeding bowl 25/26c during day and night time it’s 20c bottom with top where he sleeps 23/24c which I monitor with 3 digital temp and humidity thermometer and 1 dual dial thermometer. I will upload pics of basking and night heat bulb. I bought a uv checker card which never changes colour or I’m not using it properly so I changed the 2 uva/b 50w spots for 150w and night time I have black ceramic 150w bulbs. The new 150w uva/b bulbs don’t change the colour of the uva/b checker card either any tips on what to change would b so very much appreciated. Thank you everyone for making me feel so welcome, supported and less alone

Aw yay I’m SO glad to hear he’s eaten! Some of them do slightly go off food this time of year, so it could’ve well been that.

There are a few things I want to give a heads up on with the set up, with all the outdated misinformation out there, it’s very so easy to be a bit misled on some things, I’d hate for you to potentially run into any issues so hope you don’t mind me commenting on them!

With the lighting, spot lamps are generally a bit too harsh on a tortoises carapace and can contribute towards pyramiding, incandescent floodlights are much more suited, both Arcadia and pro rep brand do them very reasonable.

For UVB, you want a t5 tube fluorescent light, I wouldn’t go cheap brands for these are they are far too unreliable. The brands to go for are either, ‘Arcadia proT5 kit 12%’, that comes with the reflector fittings, or, ‘zoo med reptisun 10.0’ which usually needs the hood buying separately. Personally I recommend the Arcadia.
With the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity.
The right uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12hrs, your ceramics(if needed) will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hope that all makes sense!

I wouldn’t rely on the clamps you’re using, they have been known to fail and fall in

Stick with the digital monitoring your readings as those analog gauges are notoriously inaccurate! Infrared temp guns come in handy too

Temps don’t sound too bad, but make sure you’re getting the basking temperature just under the bulb to 95f(35c) the rest ideally ranging 75f cool end, 80-85 middle during the day. 60-70 is a fine night temp.

With the substrate I’d ditch any hay/edible bedding, these guys are grass eaters and that stuff can mould. I’d also ditch that tortoise terrain stuff, you don’t want anything mixed with sand or those limestone bits, it encourages substrate eating and sand is an impaction risk. Your best bet is coco coir or orchid bark

For a water dish, swallow clay terracotta saucers are considered the safest sitting flush with the substrate, he should be able to navigate it easier. Does he have a soak routine?

I can’t tell for certain in the pics, but he does appear to be on the younger side, don’t suppose you know his age? Was he bought from a breeder? I only ask because contrary to a lot of the information out there, tortoises under the 2-3 year mark GREATLY benefit from being raised in higher humidity, it goes a long way in reducing pyramiding which I can see he has a little bit of(don’t stress it’s not severe)
If I could get a rough age, I have a really good housing link I can pass on to you that covers all the right equipment, levels etc with photo examples, want to make sure I pass on the right one for a baby or adult

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you everyone for making me feel so welcome, supported and less alone

this makes me so happyit’s what I love about being on here too! We’re your new tortoise loving family lol

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thought I’d add all of them, just go according to his age(if under 3 I’d look into the young one, though at your guys size I don’t think he’ll need it covered for long, maybe a year or so)

If your guy is indeed still under 3, he may benefit from a covered enclosure for another year, this thread covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc), correct levels, importance of a closed chamber for younger tortoises(only way to maintain the humidity you need), appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, and a really handy diet link to check out! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better! But I’ll add some more ideas below for closed chambers, I think a bunch of the cover options will work for the set up you have

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes different closed chamber options, like I say, I don’t think your guy will need it for long(if at all depending on his age) but some of the covers in here can be cheaper to make

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

This one here is for adults 3+, I want to preface that I know the recommended adult size is intimidating to some, especially if you’ve been lead into thinking he’ll be fine in a smaller set up(very common) but tortoises long term health really does rely on lots of roaming room. If you’re unable to go that big, don’t worry, there’s a few creative ways to tackle this issue

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes lots of inspiration for an adult set up both indoors and out! The indoor bit has some good ideas to tackle indoor space whilst still providing the needed roaming room!

Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, this one here is probably most important to go over and keep on hand, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Really hope this all helps! I know it’s a lot to go over sorrybut take all the time you need! They’ll always be folks to help with any further questions! We can break things down bit by bitultimately if you guy is younger, just a few tweaks here n there to make things more appropriate for him like cover and the right lighting, if he’s a bit older now, he will need bigger, but again you can focus on things like the substrate and lighting for now

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

have NEVER seen him use his water dish but I just have for the first time as I was taking pics to upload. I’m thrilled!!

Russians are notorious for not drinking or self soaking, which is why it is important to have a soaking routine!

 

[laura2good]

Aw yay I’m SO glad to hear he’s eaten! Some of them do slightly go off food this time of year, so it could’ve well been that.

There are a few things I want to give a heads up on with the set up, with all the outdated misinformation out there, it’s very so easy to be a bit misled on some things, I’d hate for you to potentially run into any issues so hope you don’t mind me commenting on them!

With the lighting, spot lamps are generally a bit too harsh on a tortoises carapace and can contribute towards pyramiding, incandescent floodlights are much more suited, both Arcadia and pro rep brand do them very reasonable.

For UVB, you want a t5 tube fluorescent light, I wouldn’t go cheap brands for these are they are far too unreliable. The brands to go for are either, ‘Arcadia proT5 kit 12%’, that comes with the reflector fittings, or, ‘zoo med reptisun 10.0’ which usually needs the hood buying separately. Personally I recommend the Arcadia.
With the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity.
The right uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12hrs, your ceramics(if needed) will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hope that all makes sense!

I wouldn’t rely on the clamps you’re using, they have been known to fail and fall in

Stick with the digital monitoring your readings as those analog gauges are notoriously inaccurate! Infrared temp guns come in handy too

Temps don’t sound too bad, but make sure you’re getting the basking temperature just under the bulb to 95f(35c) the rest ideally ranging 75f cool end, 80-85 middle during the day. 60-70 is a fine night temp.

With the substrate I’d ditch any hay/edible bedding, these guys are grass eaters and that stuff can mould. I’d also ditch that tortoise terrain stuff, you don’t want anything mixed with sand or those limestone bits, it encourages substrate eating and sand is an impaction risk. Your best bet is coco coir or orchid bark

For a water dish, swallow clay terracotta saucers are considered the safest sitting flush with the substrate, he should be able to navigate it easier. Does he have a soak routine?

I can’t tell for certain in the pics, but he does appear to be on the younger side, don’t suppose you know his age? Was he bought from a breeder? I only ask because contrary to a lot of the information out there, tortoises under the 2-3 year mark GREATLY benefit from being raised in higher humidity, it goes a long way in reducing pyramiding which I can see he has a little bit of(don’t stress it’s not severe)
If I could get a rough age, I have a really good housing link I can pass on to you that covers all the right equipment, levels etc with photo examples, want to make sure I pass on the right one for a baby or adult

Thank you so very much for all your help! I would NEVER mind anyone telling me how I can do better. I want this little guy to b here with my kids long after I’m not. Thank you for the lighting list and I would really apreciate the housing link. I have 3 coco bricks I bought for seeds. I will get that soaked and change the substrate tomorrow. He was bought from a pet shop as with his enclosure and lighting, I researched for too long then ran out of time and panic bought what was in stock so I had something. I researched various breeds and then various breeder for too long. I ran out of time logistically so had to look close to home which meant my options were limited. All I kno is that he is a baby and the pet shop said they had just got 4 and he was the only 1 left. I was so excited leaving the shop and more concerned with the weather on the way to the car that I forgot to ask his age, sorry. I’ve googled that too but I believe there is no reliable way to tell. I soak him in the bathroom sink, water up to the start of his shell, every 2nd day. I let him sit in the water for 15 min usually. I’d leave him a little longer but by this time he starts trying to climb up and out. Thank you again. I am eternally grateful

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you so very much for all your help! I would NEVER mind anyone telling me how I can do better. I want this little guy to b here with my kids long after I’m not. Thank you for the lighting list and I would really apreciate the housing link. I have 3 coco bricks I bought for seeds. I will get that soaked and change the substrate tomorrow. He was bought from a pet shop as with his enclosure and lighting, I researched for too long then ran out of time and panic bought what was in stock so I had something. I researched various breeds and then various breeder for too long. I ran out of time logistically so had to look close to home which meant my options were limited. All I kno is that he is a baby and the pet shop said they had just got 4 and he was the only 1 left. I was so excited leaving the shop and more concerned with the weather on the way to the car that I forgot to ask his age, sorry. I’ve googled that too but I believe there is no reliable way to tell. I soak him in the bathroom sink, water up to the start of his shell, every 2nd day. I let him sit in the water for 15 min usually. I’d leave him a little longer but by this time he starts trying to climb up and out. Thank you again. I am eternally grateful

No problem at all!usually pet stores don’t have a clue on their age, but as you in the uk like me, and he looks to be captive bred, I’m actually inclined to say he is a baby like they said, so I’d follow the housing guide for the younger ones, I’ve linked it above for you